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  1. #1
    I am Fay's Avatar
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    Default 4 vs. 6 social insecurity

    How much can a 4's fear of shame and humiliation mask as 6's need for approval? How much approval do 4s need from others? Do 4s need approval at all? How much is 4's self confidence influenced by how other's view them? Do 6s care more than 4s?
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  2. #2
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    Hmmm, this is an interesting question considering I'm a 7w6, and then 4w5 in my tri-type (794). I often feel more one of the other of the types, not sure if that makes sense.

    I personally feel like they'd sort of coincide. I sometimes feel a lot of shame/embarrassment after the fact that I always want approval/to be liked, in a lot of situations. I would say maybe 4's care the most, I don't know. I know I personally care a lot about what others think of me and stuff, unfortunately I have low-self esteem.

  3. #3
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I care little for approval. This might have something to do with being social last in my instinctual stacking. "Belonging" just doesn't mean much to me. At most, I want respect so that I will be trusted to be left alone to do my own thing. Every now and then, a sense of being on the outside hits me and I can feel sort of bad about it, but my drive for freedom always outweighs any desire to feel part of a clique or whatever.

    If someone doesn't like a decision I make but I am happy with it, then I only care about what they think if I feel they may challenge me. I don't worry about not getting their approval as if I am unsure if I am right or even as if their opinion would sway me, it's more like I am aware their taking offense could mean they may cause trouble for me. They might interpret me as being rebellious or inappropriate and try and push their standards on me. I avoid being controlled, basically, and that can mean I may adapt just enough to stay under people's radar, but I will subtly do my own thing too.

    I suppose a 6 may do that too...? I also see my 5 wing talking a bit here.

    But I do want to be a favorite with someone. It's hard for me to be in a social situation without any sense that at least one person has a special feeling towards me and finds me enjoyable in some way. I feel alienated otherwise, and feeling ignored or invisible can be hard. It's more about being wanted and adored, and feeling a connection. I guess it's the whole "significance" thing as a 4.

    I think if you understand it in terms of being an image type's void vs a head type's anxiety, then the difference becomes clear.

    Growing up, my sister and I had a little bit of sibling rivalry and still can regress and fall into this petty argument of "I know mom loves you more! You're the favorite! I'm the black sheep!". My sister is an ESFP 7w6, not sure on her instincts (probably sp/sx too). Both of us wanted to be adored more than approved of; we never seemed too concerned about being disappointments so much as not being loved. My sister is VERY social, but she likes to be a favorite with people more than belonging or being accepted. I think we both want to stand out, not fit in. I feel like some of this may be a P thing too (Ji over Je). I don't know how her 7 head anxiety plays into that, but it can seem like she wants to be a favorite so she can have sway with people. She is assured of getting things her way (which may calm any anxiety over deprivation or whatever) if people are charmed by her. I am not so concerned about having needs met via charming people; I really just want to feel wanted and appreciated for who I am. I tend to feel like my presence is an unwanted burden on people, so I will become withdrawn out of shame; not because they don't approve of me, but because I personally feel not enough. I sort of reject myself for people. My sister is much more, er, demanding. How charismatic she tends to be seems related to how much someone may be able meet her needs. She can be rude if she's in a situation where it doesn't seem like people can, er, give her something she wants.
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  4. #4

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    I think a 4w3 may seek approval more so than a 4w5 due to the 3 wing's drive for achievement and success, and with that usually comes some sort of interference with social convention. I am a 4, but I probably lean more towards the 4w3 side of the scale.

    The thing is that I'm not so unattached to where I can just care less entirely. Deep down I care what people think, but at the same time I don't, so it's a bit of a paradox for me. I'd say it's more hurt that comes with it than anything else though. I still want to do my own thing, but my feelings are usually torn up if someone openly shows their disapproval. I then start thinking there is something wrong with me, as if I am truly strange to the point people where others are disgusted with me. However, I also want to be my own person, so admittedly I feel some sort of validation when this happens as well. On the other hand, it also depends on the person that is showing their disapproval towards me. If they are someone I deem as respectable, intelligent, and their opinions are meaningful to me, I would care more so than someone who I think very little of. Although, I strive more on being creative and innovative then making sure my security is 100% intact. I'd rather be me and do my own thing than play it safe entirely.

    Additionally, I do have a 6 in my tritype, so I do share some of their tendencies as well, but it's not so much that I worry a lot about support or guidance, as it's more of a shameful, 'there is something wrong me feeling' that is pushed to the forefront instead.
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  5. #5
    Honeyed Water thoughtlost's Avatar
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    Not sure, but it seems to me that 4s in general want approval NOT for fitting in, but approval for whoever the 4 is as a person.

    So a social 4 wants approval for who they are as an individual, but because society values particular things they critique what 'everyone else' in society is doing ...except for them of course. A social 4 believes they are not like everyone else. When they are healthy, they learn to take pride in who they are instead of going back and fourth between knowing they are fine how they are and wondering why they are defective.

    Fours in general do want to be appreciated for who they are as individuals, but the instincts will express that in different ways.

    So a sexual 4 will express themselves in a more direct way. They will try to win the affection of a particular person by turning their "flaws" into something to be admired (without doing what everyone else is doing, though) to draw the attention and seduce the person they desire. It's like they have to have the upper hand by being the desired one.

    Social 4s won't actively stand out or try to seduce, but they will talk about how they are so different from what is expected from them (based on family or friend group or whatever social group). They are looking for the okay from a "savior" that they don't have to be like everyone else to be valued and can express their feelings of not measuring up to social standards honestly. They seek others who may understand/respect their opinions and thoughts and not talk down or dismiss them. Their socially critical nature is highly tied to their identity.

    I only know one 4 (so seems to be a social dominant) and they are pretty warm because they have really good social skills/intelligences. Even when they are shy, they have a natural drive to connect with individuals and people like them. She may be reticent to speak freely because she may not trust that people will respect her thoughts. She has lots of intelligent things she wants to say, but will hold herself back often. It's a healthier thing when they can express them

    SP fours ...really feel like counter 4s to me. They go their own way and it doesn't seem like they look for acceptance, but they do.
    You are so arbitrary.

  6. #6
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    I'm pretty sure I'm a 4w5 sp (then sx then so). I don't need anyone's approval. I'm going to do what I want regardless of what anyone else thinks. I don't care what people think about what I do. I'm going to do it because I like to do it even if people don't approve. Societal expectations bother me. Controlling people who try to tell me what to do really bother me. I don't care if I have approval for what I do but I do expect respect. I'll let you live your life how you want to live it and I won't judge; please show me the same respect in return. That's what makes us all individuals. It would be so frustrating to tailor your life to get the approval of others.

    I very much agree with what @OrangeAppled said: "I care little for approval. This might have something to do with being social last in my instinctual stacking. "Belonging" just doesn't mean much to me. At most, I want respect so that I will be trusted to be left alone to do my own thing. Every now and then, a sense of being on the outside hits me and I can feel sort of bad about it, but my drive for freedom always outweighs any desire to feel part of a clique or whatever. If someone doesn't like a decision I make but I am happy with it, then I only care about what they think if I feel they may challenge me. I don't worry about not getting their approval as if I am unsure if I am right or even as if their opinion would sway me, it's more like I am aware their taking offense could mean they may cause trouble for me. They might interpret me as being rebellious or inappropriate and try and push their standards on me. I avoid being controlled, basically"
    (I tried to imbed the quote but when I deleted parts of it, it messed up so I just tagged the user and put it in quotations because I didn't want to mess with it).
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  7. #7
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    4w3 might seek more external validation because 3's are more concerned with existing hierarchies and how to fit into that scheme. A 4w5 isn't going to be as concerned with external validation and fitting into external systems. I don't know as much about 6, so have limited ability to do a comparison.

    For myself, I care about approval from a very small, select number of people that I respect and 'approve' of myself. These people have greater skill than me, so they are further along the path. For me professionally there are two people whose disapproval would disappoint me, and in my personal life I would feel some disappointment from family, and some hurt if my boyfriend disapproves, but it's limited to that. If I don't share values with someone, then I sometimes actively do not want their approval.

    I care a lot about my own approval, and tend to set my own standards for creativity rather high, although it is different from perfectionism. My goals have more to do with meaning and originality, not perfection of details. I also have more ideas and dreams than I can follow through with, and so I often feel disappointed about that. My motivation is typically based on feeling something inside that is intangible and inexplicable that needs to be expressed. If I manage to create something that matches that internal state with high accuracy, then I feel elated. It's about accurately conveying the intangible, recognizing when I have done that, and feeling self approval when I can. There isn't a way for someone outside of myself to provide this for me because they don't know what the internal state is that needs to be conveyed. They can't know if I succeeded or not.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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  8. #8
    AK Video's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fay View Post
    How much can a 4's fear of shame and humiliation mask as 6's need for approval? How much approval do 4s need from others? Do 4s need approval at all? How much is 4's self confidence influenced by how other's view them?
    Personally, my own struggle with the 4's notion that something is inherently wrong with them was more externalized and objective, and as such has a lot to do with the responses of other people. I was a kid with anxiety and panic disorders - that something was off about me wasn't just in my mind, but something teachers IRL told my parents and kids told other kids. Other people treated me that way, and that would be fact whether I came to believe it myself or not. Anxiety may be incredibly common and easily treated, but the timing of its onset was way more destructive than the thing itself ever could have been - kids are more limited in their abilities to tell illusion from reality, to hide pain, to explain themselves, and because they are under the legal care of others, to just protect themselves from stigma in all sorts of ways.

    Because of that, I did learn to place importance on what others think in areas where practical/material things may hang in the balance. For instance, one cannot get a job until an interviewer looks upon them and their skills favorably, but then if their boss hates them, they probably won't be keeping it for very long. Another example, age and health problems affect people with and people without a social support system very differently. Also consider people who have infamously lost their jobs or received death threats because enough people disliked something they posted on the internet. The list could go on. Other people can come to you with opportunities if they think you can handle them, or try to take control of you if they don't find you self-sufficient enough. One time when I was in school, I got an A in a class but was still held back for a year because the teachers thought I was too stressed by the class and couldn't hack more difficult material emotionally. They would not reconsider when asked. That's the power of what people think, although perhaps magnified by being a kid at the time and having less autonomy. Where I do have unwarranted concern over what others think (like thinking some relationship poses a practical risk where it realistically does not), it probably is because those fears go back to childhood situations where I had less control than I do as an adult.

    On the other hand, in areas of independent and harmless self-expression, no, I do not care what others think of that. I don't feel a need to appear like others or to fit in for the sake of belonging, or otherwise for its own sake - only if the apparent differences could interfere with my success (it can be really maddening how often that is the case, though, how much interdependence can creep into things where it may not be necessary or wanted). Outside of that, it doesn't matter. In the end, it doesn't matter, either - where I compromise, it is only as a means to an end where over time, such compromise will be required of me less and less because of the payment I made earlier on. The definition of success is a collaboration between myself and a society nobody can escape, and I may give certain systems just enough of me so that they will leave me alone. To rebel would be to have that stuff up in my life way more than it needs to be, so I don't.

    I don't sit easily with the feeling of being defective or lesser; I need to prove that feeling wrong in such a concrete, active way that it gets shut down with the power of material fact. That's what my part of success means - if I can't get rid of a defect, it must be transformed so that it is part of why I excelled at something. It's perfectionistic - difficulty letting a shortcoming just be a shortcoming. Feelings like that can come from within, or they could come from other people's thoughts and words in the past. Either way, if a success is visible, that does give it some extra pleasure.
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  9. #9
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    I don't want approval per se, as I'm going to continue doing what I think is best/ being true to who I am, regardless of whether I know I won't get 'approval'. I can relate to a lot of what @Lotus wrote. But 'approval' / being recognized/acknowledged/liked/affirmed/feeling shared connection and that the other person gets me and values me is awesome, not going to lie on that. Not getting that can stink in some situations, but then I just might get the shame thing a bit, or feel the 4 defective thing, or whatnot, or might go the less ideal route of armoring myself and trying to tell myself it doesn't matter even if on some level it might bother me. But it really depends on the person involved. With some people I could care less. Others, it's more impactful.
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  10. #10
    Perfect Beat Redbone's Avatar
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    It's an all or nothing for me.

    I care a lot if that person is close to me. It means everything to me. It really does and the opinions of these few carry so much weight with me. It's hard to get close enough so that I will care though.

    Beyond that, I don't care much at all. I only care about it as far as my work is concerned. I like to know I'm doing a good job and how I can improve. But these people sign my paycheck so....

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