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[Traditional Enneagram] The conundrum of social 4s

TheEndIsNotTheEnd

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The desire to be different, and yet, the deep an intense yearning to fit in.

The obsession with "normality" and "mainstream", and yet the constant plague of feeling like a hideous outsider.

The pride of being "different" and an "individual", and yet, the envy of wanting to belong to something larger than oneself.

Such a conflicting state of mind?

Social 4s are often portrayed as the self-inflicted "victims" of the Enneagram, but I personally think their fixation is extremely fascinating and human. There is a comforting "strength" in exploring their dilemma, as I think that "social shame" is more relevant today than ever.

Let's talk about social 4s! Thoughts?
 

Ghost

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Social 4s read as having a kind of externalized anxiety to me. I don't know how to explain it well. It's just something about the energy they give off.
 

Ghost

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I agree. Would you say that they are easily confused with 6s?

I think so. It's the contradictions and the vacillating. I think Social Four can superficially have that in common with Six.
 

TheEndIsNotTheEnd

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I think so. It's the contradictions and the vacillating. I think Social Four can superficially have that in common with Six.

Social 4s seem at odds with themselves and their ideas. To me, they embody the tortured artist more than any other type.
 

OrangeAppled

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Social 4s don't seem anxious to me. They seem the most openly whiny and elitist, at worst, but also the most openly vulnerable in a courageous way. I don't find them a conundrum. Their envy and shame is the most apparent. They are the most prototypical fours to me. I couldn't ever confuse them with sixes :huh:

I mean this in the best sense :D. Seriously, this makes them incredibly articulate about the inner life and the stuff a lot of people don't want to touch. Some of the most amazing writers and lyricists and poets are SO fours.
 

Qlip

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Social 4s don't seem anxious to me. They seem the most openly whiny and elitist, at worst, but also the most openly vulnerable in a courageous way. I don't find them a conundrum. Their envy and shame is the most apparent. They are the most prototypical fours to me. I couldn't ever confuse them with sixes :huh:

I mean this in the best sense :D. Seriously, this makes them incredibly articulate about the inner life and the stuff a lot of people don't want to touch. Some of the most amazing writers and lyricists and poets are SO fours.

Exactly. I was going to say that they feel very brave to me, in a way, me inside out. I hear the shame and envy and despair, it's the opposite of 6 fear, they aren't looking for refuge, they're just out there, naked.
 

Boogie man

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they aren't looking for refuge, they're just out there, naked.

f9658918876ca6ab4300aa07f1c0541e.jpg


Marilyn Manson, ladies and gents, Social 4 at your service. Out there, naked. :D
 

Peter Deadpan

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I'm having trouble settling on my instinctual variant. Does anyone have a test recommendation? I relate to some of what has been said here, but I'm just not sure.

Edit: Nvm. I'm Sx/So but by a hair.
 

ayoitsStepho

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Exactly. I was going to say that they feel very brave to me, in a way, me inside out. I hear the shame and envy and despair, it's the opposite of 6 fear, they aren't looking for refuge, they're just out there, naked.

As a 4w3 so/sx, I relate with this.

For me, my nakedness is my way of controlling the hurt, shame, envy and despair. If I control the outbreak of information about my short comings and/or faults then it doesn't hurt if someone talks about it or points it out because I chose to put myself out there and prepared myself mentally and spiritually to deal with it. I don't know if it really is so "brave" in that case. Really, it's a way for me to not get hurt. How can anyone criticize my problems if I've already pointed them out and critiqued it myself? It's only happened a very few times in my life where someone pointed out something that I didn't even realize was a problem in me and it hurt badly. I felt ashamed, stupid, less than and it took a while to get over.
For me, my nakedness is actually my shield.
 

1487610420

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Social 4s don't seem anxious to me. They seem the most openly whiny and elitist, at worst, but also the most openly vulnerable in a courageous way. I don't find them a conundrum. Their envy and shame is the most apparent. They are the most prototypical fours to me. I couldn't ever confuse them with sixes :huh:

I mean this in the best sense :D. Seriously, this makes them incredibly articulate about the inner life and the stuff a lot of people don't want to touch. Some of the most amazing writers and lyricists and poets are SO fours.

Ya mean, like sooo 4's, rite?
 

highlander

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I'm having trouble settling on my instinctual variant. Does anyone have a test recommendation? I relate to some of what has been said here, but I'm just not sure.

Edit: Nvm. I'm Sx/So but by a hair.

Seems like you are Sx/So
 

Galena

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As a 4w3 so/sx, I relate with this.

For me, my nakedness is my way of controlling the hurt, shame, envy and despair. If I control the outbreak of information about my short comings and/or faults then it doesn't hurt if someone talks about it or points it out because I chose to put myself out there and prepared myself mentally and spiritually to deal with it. I don't know if it really is so "brave" in that case. Really, it's a way for me to not get hurt. How can anyone criticize my problems if I've already pointed them out and critiqued it myself? It's only happened a very few times in my life where someone pointed out something that I didn't even realize was a problem in me and it hurt badly. I felt ashamed, stupid, less than and it took a while to get over.
For me, my nakedness is actually my shield.
That is my main defense as well, although it's been a while since I've called myself an so 4. For what it's worth, I relate to the descriptions of them more than most sx descriptions, especially when they come from this angle. Much less so with the so 4 as a social critic.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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As a 4w3 so/sx, I relate with this.

For me, my nakedness is my way of controlling the hurt, shame, envy and despair. If I control the outbreak of information about my short comings and/or faults then it doesn't hurt if someone talks about it or points it out because I chose to put myself out there and prepared myself mentally and spiritually to deal with it. I don't know if it really is so "brave" in that case. Really, it's a way for me to not get hurt. How can anyone criticize my problems if I've already pointed them out and critiqued it myself? It's only happened a very few times in my life where someone pointed out something that I didn't even realize was a problem in me and it hurt badly. I felt ashamed, stupid, less than and it took a while to get over.
For me, my nakedness is actually my shield.
I can relate to some of this as well, although I don't think I'm that strong with the social instinct, but I do relate to E4. :) I also do see a lot of vulnerability in others, even when they are wearing masks, so to me it almost feels fair to not hide my own. I also see no shame in hurt and vulnerability because I know it is a fundamental part of being a human being and it is only cultural nicety that pretends otherwise. When I talk about past pain, to me it isn't an appeal to sympathy or a suggestion of something unusual, but it is like talking about the color of the sky on November 3rd. Pain, vulnerability, fear, these are all the normal starting point. What we can do to be strong or unique is to take all the normal dirt/shirt/fertilizer of life and figure out how to make something grow. Perhaps make a new plant grow from it. For me the pain isn't what is unique, but what you do with it that creates individuality. The pain is what connects people, it is what socially isolates because it is poo-pooed and approached with so much denial and fear, but under the masks it is the one thing that we all deeply understand and what actually connects us as human beings in a difficult world. I prefer to go out on the battlefield without armor because I can. I don't know how to move forward covered in lies.

I do have a bad habit of making completely confessional, naked posts, and then going back and deleting it. It isn't out of shame, but afterwards I start thinking about the social outcomes: What if someone reads this from a power-game perspective? What if someone reading this tries to guess or happens to know the people involved? Then when I realize how many other perceptions are out there, I think it is safer and simpler to delete it and just let it be. I think that is why I ultimately love creative expression. You can tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, but still protect the anonymity of everyone involved, and it may not be comprehended by manipulative game-playing types, so you can go straight to your target audience - the other people who have experienced similar pain, who desire comprehension and growth from it, and who want to share in the expression.

I've come up with a saying that inspires me in the darker times, and it is based on the quote: "a mathematician is a machine that turns coffee into theorems". For me it is "An artist is a machine that turns pain into meaning".

Edit: I also try to avoid arrogant or presumptuous statements because I also feel that it isn't so bad to be flawed or lack insight, but to assume to know it and be wrong seem like the ultimate foolish thing to do. That would make me feel far more ashamed than just having the flaw. It's why I can't interact professionally because it is all based on "faking it until you make it" and that is an intense psychological risk for me. I feel that the downside to seeing too many flaws or being too critical of myself is not so bad. It makes me work hard, it helps me leave no stone unturned, and it leaves only pleasant surprises. I can't let myself march around declaring some idea or creation is wonderful and then discover I was too big a fool to see I was wrong. That's far worse for me than just being incapable in the first place. :unsure:
 

Kas

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Social 4s don't seem anxious to me. They seem the most openly whiny and elitist, at worst, but also the most openly vulnerable in a courageous way. I don't find them a conundrum. Their envy and shame is the most apparent. They are the most prototypical fours to me. I couldn't ever confuse them with sixes :huh:

I mean this in the best sense :D. Seriously, this makes them incredibly articulate about the inner life and the stuff a lot of people don't want to touch. Some of the most amazing writers and lyricists and poets are SO fours.

Exactly. I was going to say that they feel very brave to me, in a way, me inside out. I hear the shame and envy and despair, it's the opposite of 6 fear, they aren't looking for refuge, they're just out there, naked.

Hmm I’m not openly emotional nor whinny (well I am, but rarely). But it’s because I worked to control it. The most difficult part for me is that I can show nothing or everything ( I seem to be unable to anything in-between) and it’s hell difficult to drive with no breaks. I know that if I start to share something I will talk until I will tell everything , even if not the person will see right through me. It’s “But… I haven’t meant to tell it aloud. How this even happened” all over again. And I do not wish to be dramatic nor whiny. On the other hand it would be a pity to never drive only because it’s difficult. And sharing with others is something that really helps me especially if go through some problems. But being open takes courage, because I don’t control it and it makes me feel exposed and sometimes even ashamed or humiliated of my vivid emotional reaction and lack of self-control .


The desire to be different, and yet, the deep an intense yearning to fit in.

The obsession with "normality" and "mainstream", and yet the constant plague of feeling like a hideous outsider.

The pride of being "different" and an "individual", and yet, the envy of wanting to belong to something larger than oneself.

Such a conflicting state of mind?


I’m definitely not obsessed about mainstream etc. But I thought before about contradiction you wrote in third part. I think it’s difficult to find balance between wanting to be an independent individual and belonging, being accepted as others. How to be independent while trying to face expectations of others too?

Social 4s read as having a kind of externalized anxiety to me. I don't know how to explain it well. It's just something about the energy they give off.
I think I'm more prone to internalize the anxiety, but there may be some truth in what you wrote.
 

Forever

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Yeah going back to the description, I do believe I prefer so over sx. I think I relate to what orange said and how some people in the past saw I was a 6 and what not.

Also I prefer to feel connected with everyone than just be intense. I'm intense but not always.

But yes I have been very naked to this forum quite a lot.
 

thoughtlost

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From personal experience with a 4 (who I think is a social 4), I am surprised by how social the person is (my idea of a 4 was that they are so anti-social that they are happy locking themselves in their room painting themselves with dark colors. I jk ...I don't imagine them to be THAT extreme, but that's the gist of what I thought).

In their heads they paint themselves to not "fit in" when in other people's eyes ...they are very good at interacting with people and being social. They know how to have a good time and genuinely feel their best when they are being social. She loves to gossip/get to know people. My social 4 friend loves to make food for people and actually gets insulted when her friends don't eat her food when she offers. I call her my grandma because without her, I would not be eating as much as I should.

I think it's funny because she is truly a 4, but has a very stereotyped "ESFJ" vibe pretty often.
 
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