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[Traditional Enneagram] Do you believe in the Ennegram levels of health?

Do you believe in the enneagram levels of health?


  • Total voters
    15

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

Up the Wolves
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
19,623
MBTI Type
INTP
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5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
That is, do you believe that each Ennegram has a specific set of symptoms that reflect how healthy psychologically an individual is at any given time? I find it to be an appealing idea, myself.
 

ceecee

Coolatta® Enjoyer
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
15,917
MBTI Type
INTJ
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8w9
Sure but I don't think people take them seriously. They just think they are a different type or cry about not being able to figure out their type. Anything to keep from having to address health levels. Or, even worse, think they don't have to address because that's just how their type behaves.
 

Merced

Talk to me.
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May 14, 2016
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28?
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so/sp
There are people who think that level of mental health does not have an effect on their personality????

Am I misunderstanding the question because I am having trouble seeing the alternative viewpoint of "No, all people of an enneagram core are the same regardless of their health". I can see (even though I wholeheartedly disagree) why someone would say that health and maturity doesn't affect MBTI, but in a way enneagram is dependent on weak points in someone's psyche. How would that not apply?
 

Korvinagor

Cyber Strider
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Jan 5, 2017
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9w1
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sp/so
Well, it certainly makes sense to my mind - if we as humans can have a spectrum of mental health, then said levels can certainly apply to other things, such as the Enneagram.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

Up the Wolves
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Sure but I don't think people take them seriously. They just think they are a different type or cry about not being able to figure out their type. Anything to keep from having to address health levels. Or, even worse, think they don't have to address because that's just how their type behaves.

Huh... see, reading the descriptions, I think I might be at level 5 now.
 

julesiscools

Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2016
Messages
262
MBTI Type
ISFP
Yes, and it's the reason someone can be the same type as another but still behave differently. Everyone has a different level of mental health. A healthy 1 will behave very differently than an unhealthy 1. I'm sure health levels are the reason for mistyping, as well.
 

VILLANELLE

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I believe in it. Everyone acts differently and I myself have identified healthy and unhealthy behaviours in myself. Everyone acts/reacts differently due to their typing and what level they are.
 

entropie

Permabanned
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Messages
16,767
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Sure but I don't think people take them seriously. They just think they are a different type or cry about not being able to figure out their type. Anything to keep from having to address health levels. Or, even worse, think they don't have to address because that's just how their type behaves.

Life's always tried to be explained in static that needs less brain activity.

Noone ever cares about dynamics and thats how misinformation is created. :nopoints:
 

Andronas

New member
Joined
Mar 27, 2016
Messages
20
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INTP
This is something I've always wondered about. The Enneagram seems like a great system, but it often seems rather proscriptive in its advice. To me, the levels of health of each type seem like a way of influencing people to believe that a certain set of morals or ethics of behavior are the right ones to have. "If you act in this way, you are healthy. Otherwise, you are not, and you need to change your behavior and act how we say you should act." So, I'm always skeptical about stuff I read when it comes to the Enneagram, because I realize there's always a chance that there could just be an author's bias involved. One thing that's important that most people know is that part of the Enneagram comes from Gnostic ideology, and contains within it the concept that we are all fallen from some ideal. Check out Susan Rhodes' Enneagram book if you don't believe me on this point.
 

erg

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sx/sp
I believe in the levels of health, but I don't necessarily think they are perfectly described. I have also given it some investigation, and I think that depending on what kind of childhood you had, at certain point in your life you get stuck at at certain level and have to work your way up. Some people manage to,m others get stuck forever. In the case of 4's for example, they have a very hard time due to what happens to them when they are in the lower levels.
 

Sandman

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Jan 19, 2017
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I've never really paid much attention to them or found a reason to (I'm referring to how those levels are currently laid out by a lot of sources- but I don't necessarily believe that types have unique levels of health, just that those levels might be influenced by different factors and triggers). At a general level, there are naturally differences and I think a lot of them can be intuitively imaged without necessarily cutting them down to so many levels. At the lowest levels, where poor mental health takes such a strong hold of a person, those states will look fairly similar regardless of enneagram (and more influenced by other factors). Essentially, the pattern for most is: (at the top)- flexibility, awareness of flaws, living to highest potential, (at the bottom)- depression and/or paranoia, anger, etc. I'm not sure that it needs to be dissected further than that. Maybe if the descriptions accommodated the idea of disintegration and integration points more (1<4,7), they might be more interesting and customized.
 

the state i am in

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Feb 12, 2009
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The Enneagram seems like a great system, but it often seems rather proscriptive in its advice. To me, the levels of health of each type seem like a way of influencing people to believe that a certain set of morals or ethics of behavior are the right ones to have. "If you act in this way, you are healthy. Otherwise, you are not, and you need to change your behavior and act how we say you should act." So, I'm always skeptical about stuff I read when it comes to the Enneagram, because I realize there's always a chance that there could just be an author's bias involved.

First off, I want to say that I do agree. However, for myself at least, that seems okay.

To me, the enneagram is a tool for envisioning (and beginning to notice) patterns. As I see it, the assumption is that emotional health/wellness comes about from becoming more emotionally complete, becoming conscious of how patterns of identifying with only part of ourselves (but one way of being ourselves) affect us, not just at a behavioral level but at a spiritual one. With development, we change the way the different pieces--the different ways of being ourselves--connect. We also open ourselves to being part of bigger things, with an effort to allow the interactions to be more fully transparent, to facilitate themselves better.

It seems simple and easy to accept. As if we are learning how to build a deeper kind of momentum, an inner faith, that comes from trusting that we know how to be ourselves most fully, as we trust the process of life and relax into a way of being ourselves that promotes being in deeper, more integrated contact with the pulse of it. This doesn't change our environments and the situations we exist within directly, but it gives us better resources to navigate them--with a more balanced way of imbuing importance into the world we live in and the ways in which we try to meet our needs within it.

And while I can agree that there is a quality of perspective and values assumptions going into that, at some point, rather than critiquing bias potential, it seems more valuable to me to trust that I know through myself what grows life best. Especially if I stay in a state of curiosity towards others, one that motivates me to keep learning of the limitations of what I know (read: assume) now. How that is tested really comes down to a quality of life, a way of being ourselves (and a way of being ourselves with others). While there can be more to it, we can nevertheless make models that are incredibly useful for each other (including a model of value, like the ennegram, that explores intrinsic values for social animals/life). Discussing not simply morality but whatever teachings we have that point us towards emotional completion, seems to me, important and like it should be one of the central ongoing conversations we have. That seems like a necessity for figuring out how to move through life towards a realistic kind of fulfillment.

Morality, by contrast, employs models focused more on discussing behaviors, particularly social acts. This is important too, especially in between legal and spiritual conversations. Discussions on spirituality, on the kinds of deeper guidance that help us evolve our ways of being ourselves, seem so valuable, like real congregation, even if at times we aren't good enough at discussing to actually explore that realm, rather than simply moralizing and judging. While it can be tricky, and we can immediately assume that our interpretation of our needs is accurately representative of our actual needs, getting into spaces where we explore and examine them together, where we contextualize how them and draw connections to see how they truly fit together, seems helpful at getting at the big picture that helps them come into balance.

Feeling out how to objectively show and share the towardsness sense that guides us, not in terms of a single objective outcome but in terms of a quality of symmetry where we are living towards the whole of something too big to grasp, is difficult, for sure, but doesn't go away by ignoring that weird responsibility.
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
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Mar 20, 2009
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Yes and no. I don't think there is a specific set of symptoms, but rather, common traits to each type (IDK if that is a clear distinction; I find the descriptions more illustrative of a general mindset). It's an observed pattern or a conjecture of how a type will generally appear across health levels. Of course, there are no literal levels as if health is a video game and we earn enough positive traits to move up to the next level... in other words, sometimes people may display traits across the spectrum. The level is more of an overview of their growth, and the descriptions are examples of how someone may typically look.

IMO, people overrate their health level. Most are average, because that's why it's called average, but they think they are healthy. I wouldn't call average unhealthy though. I think a better word for healthy is perhaps "integrated".
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

Up the Wolves
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IMO, people overrate their health level. Most are average, because that's why it's called average, but they think they are healthy. I wouldn't call average unhealthy though. I think a better word for healthy is perhaps "integrated".

I'd say after reading about the ones for type 5, I'm average. I'm at level 5, trying to climb to 4. I've been way down there, though.
 

Peter Deadpan

phallus impudicus
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Dec 14, 2016
Messages
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To clarify my vote, I do believe that they exist. I just don't think they are necessarily as black and white as is described. I relate to levels of health in more than just one type which only served to confuse me when typing myself.
 

Kanra Jest

Av'ent'Gar'de ~
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While they exist in some form I am sure, what about when you apply each types disintegration process in a tritype? How do each types all go under stress when they're together. They can't all be too different in dealing with stress or how they become like can they?
Like my 3 under stress might not be the same as my 5 or 9 in handling it. It all gets most confusing once that comes into play.
 
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