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[Traditional Enneagram] The new and improved Enneagram! From the sponge and evan.

Magic Poriferan

^He pronks, too!
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
14,081
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Yin
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sx/sp
So, if somebody pursues anything, are they pursuers? What if they avoid anything?

Well, this is too extreme a definition to be reasonable, since all human beings pursue, avoid, and anticipate. It is extremely important to understand that this is a list of priorities. I may have used the terms myself, but now that I think about it, we should avoid ever calling people "pursuers" or "anticipaters" because it immediately paints too simple a picture, just like the fiasco with Thinker/Feelers that has come about with the MBTI. That's kind of why I like still calling people 1s or 5s for example. It makes people think more about the whole type, and the whole person, instead of narrowing it down way too far.

What sort of things weigh more heavily?

That should be partially determined by a person's motivational and emotional variables.

Or is this a general trend?

All things conscerning personality traits are general trends, young grasshopper.

Do things that go in the opposite direction oppose each other?

The question is too vague. Which things?
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
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ENFJ
Let me think for a moment...

Where do we classify our starving artists, who focus on one thing at expense of all else? What about those who pour their lives into a single pursuit and have a job to support themselves on the side (they don't want to starve, like the aformentioned artist) but decide they have little time on the weekends to hang out with friends?

If somebody has a few specialties that they pursue with everything they've got, does this make them pursuing? Is pursuit allowed to have focus? Where are the obsessives? The aggressive dreamers? Is there a place for them?
 

redacted

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I am so confused about the pursuing/anticipating/avoidant thing.

So, if somebody pursues anything, are they pursuers? What if they avoid anything? What sort of things weigh more heavily? Or is this a general trend? Do things that go in the opposite direction oppose each other?

I don't understand the breakdown.

These are all supposed to be general trends, which is why we include the order of the three preferences.

There are explanations on the first page of the variable values.
 

redacted

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Let me think for a moment...

Where do we classify our starving artists, who focus on one thing at expense of all else? What about those who pour their lives into a single pursuit and have a job to support themselves on the side (they don't want to starve, like the aformentioned artist) but decide they have little time on the weekends to hang out with friends?

Well it depends on the artist in question. But they would probably be avoiders or anticipaters. Pursuers are more like EPs. New potential ideas for action come up and pursuers weigh the pro side higher than the con side. Ancipaters sit around weighing the pros and cons and then decide whether or not to act. Avoiders weigh the con side higher than normal.
 

Haphazard

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Well it depends on the artist in question. But they would probably be avoiders or anticipaters. Pursuers are more like EPs. New potential ideas for action come up and pursuers weigh the pro side higher than the con side. Ancipaters sit around weighing the pros and cons and then decide whether or not to act. Avoiders weigh the con side higher than normal.

Where is normal?
 

Magic Poriferan

^He pronks, too!
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Let me think for a moment...

Where do we classify our starving artists, who focus on one thing at expense of all else?

While it may sound rather specific at first, odds are that "starving artists" come in multiple forms. The term still leaves up many, many forms. I can tell you that focsuing on one thing at the expense of everything else implies more about a person's motives, or their instincts, probably more than it does about their behavior.


What about those who pour their lives into a single pursuit and have a job to support themselves on the side (they don't want to starve, like the aformentioned artist) but decide they have little time on the weekends to hang out with friends?

Well, specifically to make an example of hanging out with friends probably means a lack of Intimacy. If their pursuit is one for the whole society then the person is probably social, otherwise they are more like to be self-preservational. As for this "pursuit" of theirs, how are they going for it? Let's not commit the fallacy of equivocation. A pursuit does not necessarily have anything to do with pursuing in this case, because the two actaully have rather different definitions, thought they sound similar. The answer here still depends on what that person's pursuit actually is.

If somebody has a few specialties that they pursue with everything they've got, does this make them pursuing? Is pursuit allowed to have focus? Where are the obsessives? The aggressive dreamers? Is there a place for them?

Pursuit can certainly have focus. Why woudn't it? The idea of pursuing pretty much requires some focus by definition, because you need a target. As for obsession and narrow interests, that again has more to do with motive than behavior. That comes down to the balance of the instincts.

Keep in mind that the emotional values also play a part here. Turbulent types for instance, are likely to be more risky than the other two emotional types, because they get more carried away with temporary feelings.
 

Magic Poriferan

^He pronks, too!
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sx/sp
Well it depends on the artist in question. But they would probably be avoiders or anticipaters. Pursuers are more like EPs. New potential ideas for action come up and pursuers weigh the pro side higher than the con side. Ancipaters sit around weighing the pros and cons and then decide whether or not to act. Avoiders weigh the con side higher than normal.


Keep in mind that a "starving artist" could even be a pursuing type, seeking their one ideal dream so much as to ignore the cost it has on everything else. As I said, the term is too ambiguous.

Where is normal?

Where normal always is. The dead average of all people polled together.
 

Haphazard

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I think the cold medicine is getting to me.

Fine then, MP. I yield. I am either 3, 1, or 5.
 

Delphyne

New member
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Aug 6, 2008
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INFP
You might have noticed that the Enneagram types seemed more pure, simple, or archetypical than the MB types. You might have observed that they are each individually defined, int stead of being comprised of variables. They were 9 allegedly "unique" types. Well that's hogwash. They are related or unrelated to each other in traceable variable based patterns, and the attempts to say otherwise have lead to many aspects of the Enneagram types that seem either vague or inexplicable.
Well, we'll be having no more of that.
The enneagram types are based on nine different passions, but there are already at least four ways to group the types into 3 x 3 categories. Your variables are nothing new, only your names are. Your first variable is normally called the Hornevian Groups, your second the Harmonic Groups. Additionally there are the Triads, which include the Heart Triade (2,3,4), the Head Triad (5,6,7) and the Instinctive Triad (8,91), and the Dominant Affect Groups, which include the Attachment-Based Group (3,6,9), the Frustration-Based Group (1,4,7) and the Rejection-Based Group (2,5,8).

In that case, we can probably conclude that your wing can't be any type that shares no values with your core type. That automatically cuts out four types, and leaves behind four that could possibly be a person's wing (consult the type chart to know which). It's worth noting that this already makes some of the original wings impossible. For example. there can no longer be a 9w8, because 9s and 8s share no values.
Each type shares values and commonalities with every other type. You can only cut out types if you reject the two other categories I´m talking about. Nines and Eights both belong to the Instinctive Triad.
 

Magic Poriferan

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I think the cold medicine is getting to me.

Fine then, MP. I yield. I am either 3, 1, or 5.

That's not far from where we left off. I threw out the possibility of you being a 6, and nearly decided that you must be a 5, but then considered that you could actually be an unconventional 3. So, I left it at 5 or 3.

I still think you're a 5, but 3 is probably your primary wing. 4 is probably your secondary wing.
 

Magic Poriferan

^He pronks, too!
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The enneagram types are based on nine different passions, but there are already at least four ways to group the types into 3 x 3 categories. Your variables are nothing new, only your names are. Your first variable is normally called the Hornevian Groups, your second the Harmonic Groups. Additionally there are the Triads, which include the Heart Triade (2,3,4), the Head Triad (5,6,7) and the Instinctive Triad (8,91), and the Dominant Affect Groups, which include the Attachment-Based Group (3,6,9), the Frustration-Based Group (1,4,7) and the Rejection-Based Group (2,5,8).


Each type shares values and commonalities with every other type. You can only cut out types if you reject the two other categories I´m talking about. Nines and Eights both belong to the Instinctive Triad.

I'm actually familiar with all of these groupings. What you have stated is something of a truism, in that the many, many variables of human personality can be catagorized in many different ways. I like some more than others, thougs. I always found the head, heart, gut triad to seem really off base. Three did not seem appropiately in the heart triad, for example.

That being said, even if you wanted to point point out the similarity many of these groupings have with older ones, I still feel that the inductions of the instincts along with a stack for all the values in an important change that I've seen no one else propose.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, and my analysis still showed that the wings made no sense at all. That's another important change.
 

Haphazard

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That's not far from where we left off. I threw out the possibility of you being a 6, and nearly decided that you must be a 5, but then considered that you could actually be an unconventional 3. So, I left it at 5 or 3.

I still think you're a 5, but 3 is probably your primary wing. 4 is probably your secondary wing.

Whatever you say, spongey-kun.

I need a nap...
 

Delphyne

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I'm actually familiar with all of these groupings. What you have stated is something of a truism, in that the many, many variables of human personality can be catagorized in many different ways. I like some more than others, thougs.
I wasn´t talking about many variables, only four and the possibility that there are more. So far only these four seem to fit in with my observations.

I always found the head, heart, gut triad to seem really off base. Three did not seem appropiately in the heart triad, for example.
The triads are actually the groups which I find easiest do spot. Sometimes I can see and feel where someone has his center. Especially some 3w2s radiate feeling (heart) energy. It´s also very easy to experience these centers through exercises and detect how you react if you focus your attention to the three different centers.

That being said, even if you wanted to point point out the similarity many of these groupings have with older ones, I still feel that the inductions of the instincts along with a stack for all the values in an important change that I've seen no one else propose.
Yes, I have never heard about that particular theory before.
 

INTJMom

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5w4
...

The second variable is one that regards emotional states and responses. They can be turbulent, suppressive, or controlling, for lack of better words.

The turbulent ones are the people that do not hinder their emotions at all. They let their moods tempestuously flare with every feeling as it is set off. Their emotions run wild. They often seem to tilt toward being more negative than positive, but I think this is largely just because there are more negative emotions than positive ones, not because these types particularly want to dwell on negativity. These types are 4, 6, and 8.

The suppressive types try to keep their emotions from speaking up. They tend to believe that they can work best when they are not hearing their emotions much or at all. By default they are well composed people. But when they fail to successfully suppress their emotions, it often results in awkward displays. These types are 1, 3, and 5.

The controlling types are the ones that try to manipulate the flow of their own feelings to their advantage. These are the people that try to think positive. They make an effort to both display desirable emotions to others, and to also frequently reassure themselves of such good feelings. Most usually pick feelings like confidence, happiness, or love to project, but they may develop whatever feeling is appealing to them. They are also prone to suffering from denial, and usually take it very hard if their self-assurances can be completely disproven. These types are 2, 7, and 9.

So, to summarize the types:
Pursuing/Turbulent = 8. Avoiding/Turbulent = 4. Anticipating/Turbulent = 6. Pursuing/Suppressive = 3. Avoiding/Suppressive = 5. Anticipating/Suppressive = 1. Pursuing/Controlling = 7. Avoiding/Controlling = 9. Anticipating/Controlling = 2.

Here's a chart of the types, centering on the 8, to help give you an idea of where they stand.

View attachment 2463

This additional picture, centered on the 1, shows you the pattern if the chart was continuously tiled.

View attachment 2464

Every type shares one value with four of the other types, and shares no value with the remaining types. As you can see in the charts, a type shares a value with every other type that is on the same row or column. Naturally, a type shares both values only with itself. So as an example, the 1 is anticipating and suppressed, it relates to the 2 and 6 because they are both anticipating, and it relates to the 3 and 5, because they are both suppressed.
Thank you for the awesome work you did in putting this thread together.
I think it should be nominated for the "
Haight Classics".

As far as the first variable, I'm pretty sure I do the Avoidant the most.

I don't think I understand the second variable well enough yet.
I do some of each and I can't tell them apart enough to differentiate.

Can you help me?
 

runvardh

にゃん
Joined
Jun 23, 2007
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6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
So if I did this right I seem to come out 4>5>6 IPS...
 

redacted

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That's definitely a valid type in our system.

IPS seems like a common variant stacking on this forum.
 

substitute

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So... thinking about it, when I've objected to the Enneagram before it's been because I've scored almost equally in 5, 7 and 8. I feel like I should be an SIP in your system, and 5 would be my tertiary number, though I can't decide which is first or second of 7 and 8. If it were an MBTI type I'd have an X there as though I couldn't decide on a preference.

Is there room in your system for this? For me to say perhaps 7/8>5 SIP?
 

redacted

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7/8/5 doesn't fit in our system. 5 is diagonal from 7 and 8. There's a chart on the first page.
 
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