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Thread: The new and improved Enneagram! From the sponge and evan.

  1. #191
    Senior Member Array BlueGray's Avatar
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    I ended up with Avoidant > Pursuing > Anticipating and Suppressive > Turbulent > Controlling.

    Ironically this ended up giving me a type of 5 > 4 > 3. I found it somewhat amusing for the type to work out like this.
    Ne > Ti > Si >> Te > Se >> Fe > Fi > Ni
    5 so/sp
    Chaotic Neutral/Evil

  2. #192
    Yeah, I can fly. Array Aleksei's Avatar
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    For the purpose of shameless promotion of this system (which I consider to be very good) as well as to help refine and find a purpose for it, I'll post my feedback here in order to bump this thread. Some of this I've already discussed with Magic Poriferan over AIM, some is new.

    First order of business, this enneagram needs a name change. For one thing it is no longer an Enneagram of Personality, as it is no longer arranged in a visually aesthetic but arbitrary and useless manner. For another a lot of people are gonna complain that the new enneagram isn't as good as the old one, or much worse still, they could form some sort of weird synergy between the two the way Keirseyan role variants (and even Socionics! ) are merged with MBTI.

    Secondly, I would say assigning one type and one wing is more than enough to arrive at a typological profile. Assigning two or even a descending order of wings could make the system a tad overcomplicated (not necessarily to read, but to build -- and a typological system without corresponding archetypes misses the point of typology).

    Thirdly, I would say it's a good idea to concentrate on how this system connects to MBTI, as one of the best things about the original Enneagram was that it added an emotional dimension (motivations, ego fixation) to MBTI's cerebral one (cognition), to give a more complete personality profile. Fortunately because you did a great job on your improvements, I believe this one actually fits that role better. Better yet, it actually lends itself far better to a coherent shadow type theory, assuming we use the functional mirror theory of the shadow (XXXX-DSSD) rather than the type mirror theory (XXXX-DDDD). For example, it makes a lot of sense that the shadow of an ENTP 7w3 (Ne Ti Fe Si, Controlled > Pursuing > Suppressed) would be an INTJ 3w7 (Ni Te Fi Se, Suppressed > Pursuing > Controlled).

    Finally, I really dislike your instinctual variant notation -- it looks downright unaesthetic, not to mention under it my stacking is PIS. X_X I'll keep the old version thank you very much.

    Anyway, under your system I'm Suppressive > Avoidant > Turbulent > Pursuing > Controlled > Anticipating, Personal > Intimate > Social. 5/4/3 sp/sx.


    Teacher (Idyllic), ESE-IEI (Si-ESFj), SLue|I|, Sanguine-Melancholy
    Sage, True Neutral (Chaotic Good), Type III Anti-Hero
    Inventive > Artistic > Leisurely > Dramatic
    7w6 > 4w3 > 9w8, weakside sp/so

    Dark Worker (Sacrificing)
    Freewheeling Designer

    Hayekian Asshole


  3. #193
    Yeah, I can fly. Array Aleksei's Avatar
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    Possible type equivalences from the old to the new system:

    1w9- 1w6, 1w5

    1w2- 1w2, 1w3

    2w1- 2w1, 2w9

    2w3- 2w7, 2w6

    3w2- 3w1, 3w5

    3w4- 3w8, 3w7

    4w3- 4w8, 4w9

    4w5- 4w5, 4w6

    5w4- 5w4, 5w3

    5w6- 5w1, 5w9

    6w5- 6w1, 6w8

    6w7- 6w4, 6w2

    7w6- 7w9, 7w2

    7w8- 7w8, 7w3

    8w7- 8w7, 8w3

    8w9- 8w6, 8w4

    9w8- 9w7, 9w4

    9w1- 9w2, 9w5


    Teacher (Idyllic), ESE-IEI (Si-ESFj), SLue|I|, Sanguine-Melancholy
    Sage, True Neutral (Chaotic Good), Type III Anti-Hero
    Inventive > Artistic > Leisurely > Dramatic
    7w6 > 4w3 > 9w8, weakside sp/so

    Dark Worker (Sacrificing)
    Freewheeling Designer

    Hayekian Asshole


  4. #194
    Yeah, I can fly. Array Aleksei's Avatar
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    One more piece of feedback: You should really eliminate the behavior wings, for two powerful reasons.

    First and most importantly, as I mentioned before one of the functions of the Enneagram wings is that they are shadows of each other. Now, the description of a shadow is the hidden aspect of your personality -- making it something that looks out of reach due to being superficially different, but is in fact internally very similar (in MBTI the shadows would be the same function oriented in a different direction for example -- Ne and Ni rather than Ne and Se). The emotion wings fit this description beautifully, immensely better than the old Enneagram wings do for the most part, but the behavior wings are sort of the opposite of that. 3 and 8 for example, are extremely similar on the surface (because they behave the same way), but very different underneath. That's not what a wing is supposed to be.

    Second (and I think you'll like this better ), it reduces your Enneagram to the same number of combinations as the old one. Thus you've effectively completed your goal of creating a simpler version of the same system (though you'll still need to call it something different for reasons previously stated).

    Following that the types would be as follows: 1w3, 1w5, 2w7, 2w9, 3w1, 3w5, 4w6, 4w8, 5w1, 5w3, 6w4, 6w8, 7w2, 7w9, 8w4, 8w6, 9w2, and 9w7. With their respective instinctual stacks of course.

    Under this new system, I would be a 5w3 sp/sx.


    Teacher (Idyllic), ESE-IEI (Si-ESFj), SLue|I|, Sanguine-Melancholy
    Sage, True Neutral (Chaotic Good), Type III Anti-Hero
    Inventive > Artistic > Leisurely > Dramatic
    7w6 > 4w3 > 9w8, weakside sp/so

    Dark Worker (Sacrificing)
    Freewheeling Designer

    Hayekian Asshole


  5. #195
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Hey MP - Don't know how I missed this before, but I like it. You are good at laying things out in an easily understandable manner. Need to mull over this more, but I'm glad the thread got bumped.

  6. #196
    Freaking Ratchet Array Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    So this is what I just came up with.

    From greatest to least of each when it comes to preferences:

    Motive:
    Intimate
    Social
    Preservational

    Behavior:
    Avoiding
    Anticipation
    Pursuing

    Emotion:
    Controlled
    Turbulent
    Suppressed

    From there I got (in order from greatest to least):
    Avoiding Controlled: 9 (core)
    Avoiding Turbulent: 4 (Dominant Wing)
    Controlled Anticipation: 2 (Secondary Wing)
    Avoiding Suppressed: 5 (Dominant Tertiary Wing)
    Controlled Pursuing: 7 (Secondary Tertiary Wing)
    Anticipation Turbulent: 6 (Second Row )
    Anticipation Suppressed: 1
    Turbulent Pursuing: 8
    Pursuing Suppressed: 3 (Third Row)

    This would put me at:
    9>4>2>5>7>6>1>8>3?

    So it would either be 9w4 or 9w2 sx/so/sp, at least for what I would believe to be my behavior and emotion stacking. Putting them together would look like 9w4w2 I-S-P. I find it funny that 8 and 1 is nowhere near 9 and that 3 is the lowest.
    Last edited by Rail Tracer; 08-03-2010 at 08:15 AM.

  7. #197
    Honor Thy Inferior Array Such Irony's Avatar
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    I'm clearly avoidant and suppressed going by your model. I think I'd be a 5w1 in that system. I usually score pretty high on type 1 so it makes sense.
    INtp
    5w6 / 9w1 / 3w4 sp/so/sx
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    Ravenclaw
    Neutral Good




  8. #198
    He pronks, too! Array Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    For the purpose of shameless promotion of this system (which I consider to be very good) as well as to help refine and find a purpose for it, I'll post my feedback here in order to bump this thread. Some of this I've already discussed with Magic Poriferan over AIM, some is new.


    First order of business, this enneagram needs a name change. For one thing it is no longer an Enneagram of Personality, as it is no longer arranged in a visually aesthetic but arbitrary and useless manner. For another a lot of people are gonna complain that the new enneagram isn't as good as the old one, or much worse still, they could form some sort of weird synergy between the two the way Keirseyan role variants (and even Socionics! ) are merged with MBTI.
    I'm inclined to agree with this. I'm still ruminating on what to call it. Indeed, though, I'm tired of being told it's not enough like the original Enneagram, but I'm even more worried by conflation with the old one. I started calling it the Enneagram because it seemed reasonable to reference the basis for this system, but was completely overlooked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Secondly, I would say assigning one type and one wing is more than enough to arrive at a typological profile. Assigning two or even a descending order of wings could make the system a tad overcomplicated (not necessarily to read, but to build -- and a typological system without corresponding archetypes misses the point of typology).
    I'm not so sure about this. The three middle types are indecipherable for now, but I think the top three and even the bottom three can be deduced. I don't think a typology necessarily has to be all about archetypes. One of the main reasons for the changes made here is that it allowed for a vast array of types that could be logical deduced from a minimal number of components. It was an attempt at the best of both worlds, by avoiding being too bound to rigid archetypes, but not having an overwrought mess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Thirdly, I would say it's a good idea to concentrate on how this system connects to MBTI, as one of the best things about the original Enneagram was that it added an emotional dimension (motivations, ego fixation) to MBTI's cerebral one (cognition), to give a more complete personality profile. Fortunately because you did a great job on your improvements, I believe this one actually fits that role better. Better yet, it actually lends itself far better to a coherent shadow type theory, assuming we use the functional mirror theory of the shadow (XXXX-DSSD) rather than the type mirror theory (XXXX-DDDD). For example, it makes a lot of sense that the shadow of an ENTP 7w3 (Ne Ti Fe Si, Controlled > Pursuing > Suppressed) would be an INTJ 3w7 (Ni Te Fi Se, Suppressed > Pursuing > Controlled).
    This makes sense in some says, but I don't want to operate 100% along these lines, lest this system merely become a symbiote when I think it still has the capacity to stand on its own if necessary.

    As for a coherent shadow theory, I think that might be a pipe dream.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Finally, I really dislike your instinctual variant notation -- it looks downright unaesthetic, not to mention under it my stacking is PIS. X_X I'll keep the old version thank you very much.

    Anyway, under your system I'm Suppressive > Avoidant > Turbulent > Pursuing > Controlled > Anticipating, Personal > Intimate > Social. 5/4/3 sp/sx.
    Can't account for taste. I'll keep peddling my notation, thank you very much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    One more piece of feedback: You should really eliminate the behavior wings, for two powerful reasons.

    First and most importantly, as I mentioned before one of the functions of the Enneagram wings is that they are shadows of each other. Now, the description of a shadow is the hidden aspect of your personality -- making it something that looks out of reach due to being superficially different, but is in fact internally very similar (in MBTI the shadows would be the same function oriented in a different direction for example -- Ne and Ni rather than Ne and Se). The emotion wings fit this description beautifully, immensely better than the old Enneagram wings do for the most part, but the behavior wings are sort of the opposite of that. 3 and 8 for example, are extremely similar on the surface (because they behave the same way), but very different underneath. That's not what a wing is supposed to be.
    That may have been what a wing was all about to another system, but I don't see why it needs to be that way. I think the difference between types on either variable is equally relevant, and one reason in particular that I want to keep both is that some people don't connect very much to one of the types, but they do to the other. If we cut out all the behavioral wings, that would create a hole in place of all the people who have far more variable behavior preferences than emotional preferences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Second (and I think you'll like this better ), it reduces your Enneagram to the same number of combinations as the old one. Thus you've effectively completed your goal of creating a simpler version of the same system (though you'll still need to call it something different for reasons previously stated).

    Following that the types would be as follows: 1w3, 1w5, 2w7, 2w9, 3w1, 3w5, 4w6, 4w8, 5w1, 5w3, 6w4, 6w8, 7w2, 7w9, 8w4, 8w6, 9w2, and 9w7. With their respective instinctual stacks of course.

    Under this new system, I would be a 5w3 sp/sx.
    This would matter to me more if it had not already been decided to stop refering to this as the Enneagram in anyway.

    As an aside, I only have 9 core types. The fact that I have more different types with the additional components is true, but that's also true of the original enneagram, if you include the wings, the instincts, and the levels of health or lines of integration and disintegration.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. I-P-S. Explained in detail here.

    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  9. #199
    He pronks, too! Array Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Hey MP - Don't know how I missed this before, but I like it. You are good at laying things out in an easily understandable manner. Need to mull over this more, but I'm glad the thread got bumped.
    Thank you, ma'am.

    Quote Originally Posted by Takeru View Post
    So this is what I just came up with.

    From greatest to least of each when it comes to preferences:

    Motive:
    Intimate
    Social
    Preservational

    Behavior:
    Avoiding
    Anticipation
    Pursuing

    Emotion:
    Controlled
    Turbulent
    Suppressed

    From there I got (in order from greatest to least):
    Avoiding Controlled: 9 (core)
    Avoiding Turbulent: 4 (Dominant Wing)
    Controlled Anticipation: 2 (Secondary Wing)
    Avoiding Suppressed: 5 (Dominant Tertiary Wing)
    Controlled Pursuing: 7 (Secondary Tertiary Wing)
    Anticipation Turbulent: 6 (Second Row )
    Anticipation Suppressed: 1
    Turbulent Pursuing: 8
    Pursuing Suppressed: 3 (Third Row)

    This would put me at:
    9>4>2>5>7>6>1>8>3?

    So it would either be 9w4 or 9w2 sx/so/sp, at least for what I would believe to be my behavior and emotion stacking. Putting them together would look like 9w4w2 I-S-P. I find it funny that 8 and 1 is nowhere near 9 and that 3 is the lowest.
    The first three and the last three check out. The middle three, as I've said before, do not go in any determinate order for now. It's fun to see which order each person intuitively decides it should go in. But either way, you worked it out correctly.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. I-P-S. Explained in detail here.

    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  10. #200
    Freaking Ratchet Array Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The first three and the last three check out. The middle three, as I've said before, do not go in any determinate order for now. It's fun to see which order each person intuitively decides it should go in. But either way, you worked it out correctly.
    I think my avoiding behavior comes out stronger than my controlled emotion. If I had to switch out either one for a different behavior or a different emotion, it would almost always be the emotion that I'll switch out.

    Which is why my dominant wing and tertiary are both Avoiding + Emotion.
    While my secondary wing and tertiary are both Behavior + Controlled.

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