[Traditional Enneagram] Dumb question - Why are wings only of adjacent types?

[Typh0n]

We can but Type 7 has to be introverted that's about it really.

Is everyone on board with changing Type 7 from ExxP to IxxP?

Sure.

And you know, this is random, but it just occured to me. I was thinking, maybe we can add more types, since why are there only nine types? Then it hit me; the ennegram may be based on numerology. In numerology, there is no number ten, there are only nine numbers. Its impossible for something to have numerological value of two-digits numbers since the two numbers always add up to one number, like 10 will add up to 1 (1+0 = 1) 11 will add up to 2, 12 to 3, and so on with all numbers.

So there are only nine numbers numerology.

I really do wonder who originally came up with the enneagram and what it was based on, I know Gurdjieff introduced it and it was supposedly something he learned from an obscure "Sarmoun Brotherhood", see Meetings with Remarkable Men by Gurdieff. According to Stephen Flowers, in Lords of the Left Hand Path, this "appears to be pure mythologizing on Gurdjieff's part" and "The ninefold cosmology is common among Indo-European mythologies..."

Mr. G. was a mysterious guy...

 

[Pionart]

Sure.

And you know, this is random, but it just occured to me. I was thinking, maybe we can add more types, since why are there only nine types? Then it hit me; the ennegram may be based on numerology. In numerology, there is no number ten, there are only nine numbers. Its impossible for something to have numerological value of two-digits numbers since the two numbers always add up to one number, like 10 will add up to 1 (1+0 = 1) 11 will add up to 2, 12 to 3, and so on with all numbers.

So there are only nine numbers numerology.

I really do wonder who originally came up with the enneagram and what it was based on, I know Gurdjieff introduced it and it was supposedly something he learned from an obscure "Sarmoun Brotherhood", see Meetings with Remarkable Men by Gurdieff. According to Stephen Flowers, in Lords of the Left Hand Path, this "appears to be pure mythologizing on Gurdjieff's part" and "The ninefold cosmology is common among Indo-European mythologies..."

Like I said earlier we can have systems with any number of types.

We have 10 numbers in our digit system because 3*7*37 = 777 and this is why we have 4 fingers and a thumb.

If we grew another finger or counted with our palm then we would have 12 which is 10 + 2 (you can check this by counting one more than ten then another one and you get twelve believe it or not, I don't).

12 is a number bigger than 10 by 2, and there are 12 types in the zodiac of astrology, which is older than enneagram and MBTI and is based on 3 and 4 whereas MBTI is based on 4 and 4 and enneagram is based on 3 and 3 so let's just use zodiac.

 

[Typh0n]

Like I said earlier we can have systems with any number of types.

We have 10 numbers in our digit system because 3*7*37 = 777 and this is why we have 4 fingers and a thumb.

If we grew another finger or counted with our palm then we would have 12 which is 10 + 2 (you can check this by counting one more than ten then another one and you get twelve believe it or not, I don't).

12 is a number bigger than 10 by 2, and there are 12 types in the zodiac of astrology, which is older than enneagram and MBTI and is based on 3 and 4 whereas MBTI is based on 4 and 4 and enneagram is based on 3 and 3 so let's just use zodiac.

You misunderstood me. In mathematics, of course there are infinite numbers. I just meant that in numerology (which isn't maths) there are only nine. And nine types in enneagram. So I'm trying to figure out the connection by what little knowledge we have of the origins of the enneagram

Btw, we got way off topic, lol. But I like this discussion, getting off topic can sometimes be worth it. Its not like what we are discussing is completely unconnected to the topic, though.

 

[Pionart]

You misunderstood me. In mathematics, of course there are infinite numbers. I just meant that in numerology (which isn't maths) there are only nine. And nine types.

As you may have noticed by now, I like to ask "why" alot.

Why don't they just call it ninerology?

Or enneagram? Like, why is 9 next to 1? Are we almost there yet, did we selved it to solvations????

Hmmmmmmmm we are almost to the finished of the extrorshens!!!!!

Soon MOTHERSHIP BEEAM ABORD THE BOMBADORR

WOOOOOEEEEEEEEAAAIIIIIIIIIIIII ^_^

Lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalal

>.>

v.v

,.,.,.,.,.,.,.

\,./\/.\/\/,\/,.\./\,/.\./\\,/,\/./\,./\,/\./\.,//\,/\,/\,./\,./.,/.\./\hj/\,./\/.\j/../,.\,/,./y/../\/.jk/\,.//.tx.kc/.c\/x\uy./.cf\./\/

HAHAHAHHAHAHAH

lol..

spoiler

 

[Typh0n]

Ninerology? But that sounds so much less legitimate, you know, less credible, at a time when people still believed in numerology.

Nine is next to one for a reason. Its a cycle, because the original enneagram according to Flowers's book, had a snake biting its tail (ouroboros), so nine is next to one because its a cycle that repeats itself. I can't find a picture on google of this version of the enneagram, I could post a photo I took of the page in the book I mentioned, but I think that would be copyright infringement. Just picture the enneagram symbol with a serpent biting its own tail around it.

 

[Pionart]

Ninerology? But that sounds so much less legitimate, you know, less credible, at a time when people still believed in numerology.

Nine is next to one for a reason. Its a cycle, because the original enneagram according to Flowers's book, had a snake biting its tail (ouroboros), so nine is next to one because its a cycle that repeats itself. I can't find a picture on google of this version of the enneagram, I could post a photo I took of the page in the book I mentioned, but I think that would be copyright infringement. Just picture the enneagram symbol with a serpent biting its own tail around it.

That snake sounds like a total fucking moron.

 

[Pionart]

What is an explanation?

Can someone please explain?

I would also like to know what questions are.

 

[Typh0n]

That snake sounds like a total fucking moron.

You blabbering fool.

Ouroboros - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[OrangeAppled]

It has to do with insight into how people work emotionally.

Is it arbitrary that our arms come out of our shoulders and we have a head on a neck, etc? Well, we just see this is the way the body is structured, and we see how it all functions as a whole and what happens when something is "off". Enneagram is like a map representing the basic emotional and spiritual structure of people. Of course, just as with the physical body, there is great variation among people despite having many of the same basic structures. Still, we manage to classify people's appearances with a few basic categories (ie hair color, skin tone, height, etc), and that is similar to what personality typology does. There are infinite personality types that are on a spectrum of the general way humans are structured, but they still follow predictable patterns and can be classified relatively easily.

Even though we each have a core type, enneagram represents a whole basic human psychology. Integration is about becoming a whole, whereas when stuck in your ego type, you are fixated on a part of that whole and it becomes your identity. The symbol is a map of sorts for individual growth.

As [MENTION=22833]Legion[/MENTION] has been explaining.... the 3-6-9 types are considered the cornerstone types. They are some of the most basic emotional fixations we have as people. The gut type 9 is at the top because it represents "going numb" to the whole self, and the psychological laziness which leads to seeing reality in a limited way (explaining everything via the lens of the fixation). This the basic instinctual experience of being human, separated from our "higher" mental/spiritual/emotional selves. The 9 is associated with spiritual insight because their type sort of lies at the point of reconciling our animal and spiritual selves.

So whatever your type, breaking through this 9 numbness, this lack of awareness of self, can be a first step to growth. The integration lines show how you will typically grow, or what your type needs to become aware of to get past its fixation.

The head type 6 represents lack of faith. This means the 6 fixation prevents us from believing that our worst fears are not true, that there is something greater/stronger than whatever it is that holds us back. You will hear a lot in psycho-therapy/self-help lit about working past "fear" because you don't have to be a 6 to have fear/lack of faith issues that trip you up in life. The 6 point makes us feel that our particular fixation is reasonable. We over-think everything & seek to confirm fears in order to justify our fixation.

The image/heart type 3 represents the desire to be independent & the necessity of the ego to begin with (although a fixation may not be necessary). It is necessary for us to develop our own identity separate from our parents or people around us. In developing this sense of separateness from others (both in body and spirit), we lose connection to parts of ourselves that we reject as the "other" (very similar to the inferior in Jungian types). So then we spend much of our lives integrating these "others", but inevitable early emotional wounds make us resist it out of a sense of self-protection, because we get fixated on some false belief about reality. The fixation is generally a way we explain reality to ourselves, excusing ourselves for being a certain way or even convincing ourselves of a need to be a certain way in order to deal with it.

Because we initially developed with a particular ego, we will always retain our individual identity to a degree, but ideally without the limitations that come from being fixated. The vanity of the 3 is being in love with the ego, or an image of yourself that you cling to in order to feel good (value-oriented). There is also self-deceit - thinking that this is truly who you are, as if you are already integrated. You will see this a lot with people of all types at average levels - they limit their environments/interactions just enough to maintain their narrow ego, so that they have a false sense of being whole and healthy.

When you look at the types in-between these, you see the fixation is a "blend" of the two, or it's a point where they converge into another fixation that is distinguishable enough to be its own category. Much as a strawberry-blond is someone with hair pigment smack between red and blond shades.

For example - a 9 is psychologically lazy to avoid dealing with the disharmony in themselves and life. They block it out and go numb to it. The types on each side of the 9 are very contradicting, both seeing life as adversarial, but with opposite approaches. The 1 feels a need to be controlled, to impose structure and order, to be "perfect" & take the high road, and make sacrifices of need and desire in order to do so (don't be an animal). The 8 sees a chaotic & dog-eat-dog world and feels a need to be powerful, feels justified in playing & exploiting the "game" to satisfy one's desires (be an animal. there is no "high road" to them; that's opium for the masses), and needs to stay detached in order to do so. The 9 goes numb to this and will take a simplistic view in order to not actually resolve it or take a decisive stand (they take lots of "busy" action in life however, a way of not addressing the more uncomfortable realities).

Since this is a spectrum, most people will lean a bit to one side of their core type or the other, but most hold that having "double wings" or "no wing" (pretty much the same thing) is possible, as someone may lie pretty close to the center of a core type. Understanding both wings is pretty useful to understanding your core type, wherever you lie on the spectrum.

Of course, this raises the question of what difference is there between two types which have the other as its wing (ie 2w3 and 3w2). Again, most people will lean enough one way to be said to have a core type, and integration/disintegration lines can really clarify this. Personally, I think Jungian type makes a big difference here, and it is why you are unlikely to see a 2w3 thinking type, but 3w2 is not out of the question. Certain type combinations would be like saying someone has naturally black and blond hair at the same time. They contradict one another.

Anyway, that's probably more than enough....hope some of that helps.

 

[Pionart]

Typh0n, you foolish blabber!


So, we have a part of who we are, and there are other aspects of who we are, and different people also have a part they think they are and other parts of who they are but the two wholes are different from each other when treated holistically, however when highlighted in part can seem similar.

With all 9 types we become Type 0 which is Type O which is a circle which means to traverse the whole aspects of the psyche and know oneself from all angles, reaching back to the starting point, however having traversed the full loop.

I wrote about this not long ago but the reply was deleted, where I drew a parallel between conflict in human relationships and contour integrals in complex analysis, where we go full circle, yet find ourselves at a higher point than where we started.

Some people say that there is no such thing as time, although sometimes they contradict themselves on this point. Some people say that time is here and space is now. Some people say time and space are different dimensions of the same entity. Some people say that there are more dimensions that we are not aware of. Some people say that we can become aware of these dimensions through spirituality. Some people say that actually these other dimensions are the same dimensions just in different locations, and this is an example of empathy which is like quantum entanglement.

In quantum terms, binary is not zero or one but has times when a particle decays and switches it like a coin landing on its side. This means that nothing is determined and anything is possible, and even though unlikely, if we have true belief we can live in a world where the improbable is the actual, and this is a hard thing to achieve, but once achieved leads to a life which though surreal has an impact on the surrounding world that could not be achieved under a purely rational approach to life.

Where this leads is not to a predetermined destination but is chosen by us at any and every point in time. By fixating our beliefs on a fixed goal we tend to reach the goal, but we could switch our path at any point and this relates to free will and chaos, and though chaos is said to be deterministic, in actuality the world is not and thus a new concept would need to be invented, as all mathematics is simply invention as is convenient to solve the given problem. Imaginary numbers are not imaginary but were created to solve problems which did not have solutions, simply by defining the problem as solved.

Words can never truly capture what the truth is, and this is spoken of in the Tao de Ching on the first line, and thus all else is but a footnote to the truth of untruth and amounts to absurdity. Life is to be lived and experienced and it is the experience of life which defines it, and not its definitions.

So, what we are to do is to do as we wish, and avoid being bound, for boundaries are not made of love but may trick us into thinking so. Ultimately we are the ones who trick ourselves, and we are playing this game as ourselves, with the world projected as an other which is in fact merely our self projected.

So all is one, and all is free.

 

[small.wonder]

[MENTION=22833]Legion[/MENTION] I think I follow, but if I do then there's a major issue: you've made a very sweeping assumption that all 1+9 (9w1 and 1w9) people lead with Ni, when they don't. You've also assumed that 1+9 people are the only Enneagram types to lead with Ni, also very untrue. For instance, if you look at any statistical correlation between Enneagram and MBTI, you'll find a heck ton of 4's and 5's that also lead with Ni, so... it kind of disrupts your theory about disintegration/integration, because those Enneagram types have totally different health patterns than 9 and 1.

It's really cool that you are thinking about this stuff though. Personally, I think this does bring me back to my original comment, that I usually don't put a lot of stock in needing to understand how and why the Enneagram works-- because often explaining away things, trying to find logical bearings, just ends in convolution and falsehood (our need to find a solution causes us to ignore inconsistencies in our theories). For myself, just having seen the Enneagram work in action, over and over, and with any and every person, is real, tangible proof. That's just me, though.

 

[Typh0n]

[MENTION=22833]

It's really cool that you are thinking about this stuff though. Personally, I think this does bring me back to my original comment, that I usually don't put a lot of stock in needing to understand how and why the Enneagram works-- because often explaining away things, trying to find logical bearings, just ends in convolution and falsehood (our need to find a solution causes us to ignore inconsistencies in our theories). For myself, just having seen the Enneagram work in action, over and over, and with any and every person, is real, tangible proof. That's just me, though.

Of course this stuff can get convoluted, however I don't get the phrase "explain away" when used to describe something. If its explained away, doesn't that mean it was an illusion to begin with? But you said you've seen ennegram work, so I don't think it can be explained "away". Basically, I don't understand why so many folks think that logical explanations are like enemies of wonder and mystery.

Don't get me worong I'm not judging you, nor am I trying to contradict you, I think its fine that you might use the ennegaram without needing an explanation as to every single "why" of the system, maybe I'm just being ENTj, lol.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

MRW I read this thread.

I like it but to understand the eanneagram we must first understand the two words that make it up. Eannea (nine) and gram. So, by that account, it takes 9 grams of cocaine to have a crazy good party. During that party, someone probably thought of this model of personality theory.

 

[Typh0n]

MRW I read this thread.

I like it but to understand the eanneagram we must first understand the two words that make it up. Eannea (nine) and gram. So, by that account, it takes 9 grams of cocaine to have a crazy good party. During that party, someone probably thought of this model of personality theory.

 

[Brains]

This thread has so much overcomplication I don't even. And Nines are supposed to simplify ffs! D:

 

[CitizenErased]

My calculator gave enneamath error.

Answering the opening question, I don't understand it either. I wonder, though, if wings could be any number or from a specific group our enneagram type belongs to.

For example, I'm 5w4, 4w5 (I sometimes score the other way round), 1w9. 1 is really close to 5 and 4, yet 9 is my second-to-last score and 2 the last one (with 0%). So.. why 1 should have a wing that is so far away?

My progression is 5-4-1-8-3-6-7-9-2 It would make sense that 1's wing could be 8. In fact it belongs to the "gut" group, so...

 

[Pionart]

[MENTION=22833]Legion[/MENTION] I think I follow, but if I do then there's a major issue: you've made a very sweeping assumption that all 1+9 (9w1 and 1w9) people lead with Ni, when they don't. You've also assumed that 1+9 people are the only Enneagram types to lead with Ni, also very untrue. For instance, if you look at any statistical correlation between Enneagram and MBTI, you'll find a heck ton of 4's and 5's that also lead with Ni, so... it kind of disrupts your theory about disintegration/integration, because those Enneagram types have totally different health patterns than 9 and 1.

It's really cool that you are thinking about this stuff though. Personally, I think this does bring me back to my original comment, that I usually don't put a lot of stock in needing to understand how and why the Enneagram works-- because often explaining away things, trying to find logical bearings, just ends in convolution and falsehood (our need to find a solution causes us to ignore inconsistencies in our theories). For myself, just having seen the Enneagram work in action, over and over, and with any and every person, is real, tangible proof. That's just me, though.

No that's not what I was claiming.

However I was implicitly making a large number of outlandish claims that completely fly in the face of what the enneagram is simply because it lined up nicely with my own thoughts.

Basically, when I am doing this alchemy stuff with the numbers and all that, it's necessary to drop a lot of pre-conceived notions about what the personality types are and how they relate.

I am engaging in a process of discovery.

 

[Pionart]

me

 

[KitchenFly]

Let's look for some structure.

We have three triangles let's think about the three instincts,. Good now let's think about the six instinctual variant heads,. Good.

Now let's look at the image of the three triangles,. Good.

Now we live on a Planet that has a Moon that travels 12 times around the Earth every time the Earth completes one orbit around the Sun,. Good.

Now we will think about the three triangles and the Nine Points,. Ok

1-4-7 , 3+12+21 = 36 , 3+6 = 9
2-5-8 , 6+15+24 = 45 , 4+5 = 9
3-6-9 , 9+18+27 = 54 , 5+4 = 9

9+9+9 = 27 , 2+7 = 9 , (27 provides me a thought of braking down the two tens's "20" in to 10 and 10 and placing each, one ten at Point:3 and one ten at Point:6. The Severn units remaining provides me with the simple idea of placing one of each of the "7" units at all remaining Points: 4-5-2-1-7-8-9 , 1+2+4+5+7+8+9 = 36 , 3+6 = 9. This reminds me of Point:9

36+9 = 45 , utilising the principle of multiplying via 3 the number value of Point:3 provides the sum number value of 9. So now we have (1+2+4+5+7+8+9 = 36) plus three multiplied by three for one of the two remaining Points, Point:3 and now we have a number value of 45 (36+9 = 45).

36+18=54 , utilising the same process of multiplying via 3 the number value of Point:6 provides the sum number value of 18. So now we have (1+2+4+5+7+8+9 = 36) plus six multiplied by three for the last of the remaining Points, Point:6 and now we have a number value of 54 (36+18 = 54).

Ok so now we call in vision a diagram like this:


..................... 1
....... 1 ....................... 1

1 ....................................... 1


10 .................................. 10


............1 ............... 1

At this stage we will see this as a clue. And we will take this clue with another clue's (12) & (3) & the instinctual triangles.

Ok start at Point:1 envision a triangle with Point:1 at the apex of the triangle and the remaining two corners of the triangle are found at Point:7 and Point:4.

Ok start at Point:4 envision a triangle with Point:4 at the apex of the triangle and the remaining two corners of the triangle are found at Point:1 and Point:7.

Ok start at Point:7 envision a triangle with Point:7 at the apex of the triangle and the remaining two corners of the triangle are found at Point:4 and Point:1.

Or one of the other two remaking triangles.

Ok start at Point:9 envision a triangle with Point:9 at the apex of the triangle and the remaining two corners of the triangle are found at Point:6 and Point:3.

Ok start at Point:6 envision a triangle with Point:6 at the apex of the triangle and the remaining two corners of the triangle are found at Point:3 and Point:9.

Ok start at Point:3 envision a triangle with Point:3 at the apex of the triangle and the remaining two corners of the triangle are found at Point:9 and Point:6.

So we may as well do the final triangle since we have viewed the two of the three.

Ok start at Point:8 envision a triangle with Point:8 at the apex of the triangle and the remaining two corners of the triangle are found at Point:2 and Point:5.

Ok start at Point:5 envision a triangle with Point:5 at the apex of the triangle and the remaining two corners of the triangle are found at Point:8 and Point:2.

Ok start at Point:2 envision a triangle with Point:2 at the apex of the triangle and the remaining two corners of the triangle are found at Point:5 and Point:8.

Ok the next step is quite simple we go three steps each way from what ever Point we may first chose. Or we do the same action we find the other two parts of the equilateral triangle the two part's one left and one right of the apex. We will choose any number,.let's choose "5".

Point:5 envision a triangle with Point:5 at the apex of the triangle and the remaining two corners of the triangle are found at Point:8 and Point:2 so now let's take twelve baby steps in each direction from each of the two remaining corner's 8 and 2 towards the apex Point Point:5.

So let's start counting (2) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 2 3 ((4)) four is the twelfth and if we do the same from Point:8 it goes (8) 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 9 8 7 ((6)).

Exactly why is it so,. I don't know other that the pattern is sound and the pattern is there.
Twelve is "1" from the ten's column and "2" from the unit's column in the decimal point system. Two ten's equals twenty ( cause-effect -- reconciliation ). Three parts, cause (1), effect (1), reconciliation (1).

___ Reconciliation


Effect _________ Cause

The primary triangle at the reactive level "personality" has a "multiplicity" ("6----3") (-3-6-9-) and it seems at the instinctual level there maybe a further six. I suspect that the hole man may utilising as many as "10" or as many as "9" ,9 plus one mechanical orientated multiplicity to adequately respond to cause and effect via a personality in a response to entropy In order to respond creatively with an awareness toward cultivating understands of the nature of the universe perceived or the cosmos that act as host.

We are made via (Greater Nature from Grater Nature) to view and understand the Cosmos, Greater Nature.

So 12 is like a paradox or a conundrum it's ten and two and two and one...., "15" the provides the counter the other wing. 10+2+2+1= 15

- For Point:5 ,(8) 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 2 3 ((4)). Fifteen Step's.
- For Point:5 ,(8) 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 9 8 7 ((6)). Twelve Step's
- For Point:5 ,(2) 1 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 9 8 7 ((6)). Fifteen Step's.
- For Point:5 ,(2) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 2 3 ((4)). Twelve Step's.

Point5 has two subtypes (5w4w6) and (5w6w4) so in a sense at some level, Point5 has two types four wings.. or one energy point:5 two types 5w4w6 and 5w6w4, four wings. So now 54 becomes a number of interest. Fifty four step's inclusive. Or one hundred and eight and if we include a value of one for the Point number in this case "5" we can have a number value of 109 and 109 is the smallest prime number over 100.

Below is a set of diagrams and if we take two of the three as like a multiplicity, two of three parts we could think about the special prime number "11".


..................... 11

....... 11 ....................... 11


11 ....................................... 11


. 11 .................................... 11


............ 11 ............. 11



,



..................... 1

....... 1 ......................... 1

1 .........................................1


10 .................................. 10


.......... 1 ................ 1





..................... 10

....... 10 ....................... 10


10 ....................................... 10


.. 1 ..................................... 1


............ 10 ............. 10


Three multiplied by five equals fifteen.
Three multiplied by four eques twelve.

5+4= 9
15+12= 27

..................... 0

........ 0 ...................... 0

0 ....................................... 0


10 ................................. 10


........... 0 ............... 0




..................... 0

........ 0 ....................... 0

0 ........................................ 0


6 .......... Multiplicity ..........3


............ 0 .............. 0



10+6+10+3= 29


..................... 1

......... 1 .................... 1

1 ...................................... 1


10 ................................... 10


............ 1 ............. 1



29+7= 36 , 3+6= 9.



27+6+3+9+8+7+5+4+2+1= 72

..................... 10

....... 10 ....................... 10


10 ....................................... 10


. 1 ..................................... 1


............ 10 ............. 10

 

[Mal12345]

Did anybody answer the OP's question yet? Wings are the types adjacent to your primary type on the enneagram circle.