[Traditional Enneagram] 2w1 vs 2w3

[fetus]

What are the key differences between the two (haha, get it - two)? How do they act, think, and react differently?

It would be really cool to have explanations other than "2w3s are extroverts, 2w1s are introverts," because I don't think that's necessarily true. I'm really interested in how they think and behave.

 

[fetus]

20,000 members and my thread gets no replies?

 

[Forever]

20,000 members and my thread gets no replies?

27,290 members.

 

[thoughtlost]

Of course, both try to win/earn the love of others. 2w1s do it in more a "hard-working" way. My 2w1 friend works as a scientist. She is a great one, but at the end of the day, she's always worrying if her mistakes will cost her the love/respect/appreciation of her boss. So she strives towards perfection in her work and is generally less focused on purely looking good. Like she wants her good lab work to speak for itself.

2w3s are a lot more image focused, so they just simply want to win over people. My 2w3 friend cuts corners if she doesn't feel like doing something, but when she gets a bad grade or doesn't live up to standard she doesn't ever feel like it's her fault and feel like they are expecting too much from her and say something like: "I'll just tell them I was spending time with family" when she was really just hanging out with her friends. In fact, she is more likely to talk crap about other people's horrible work, but she'll NEVER acknowledge her own sloppiness.

2w3s, I've notice, listen to you less when you critique them. They are pretty bad at it. I am sure not all of them are this way. Like, they definitely worry about driving people away, but I can never tell her when she does things that make me upset with her because then she'll get upset. Whereas with my 2w1 friend you can easily do it and she definitely apologize in a sincere way. My 2w3 friend only apologizes when she realizes that I am seriously considering not being her friend because she has been a jerk for so long. And even then, she doesn't think she is being a jerk. She is really really manipulative. My 2w1 friend is less manipulative. She is more likely to beat herself up first ...and then later say "well, seriously, I was just trying to do the right thing" when things really hit the floor/people are mad at her.

 

[Galena]

I was interested and waiting for replies. 2 is the type I understand in the least detail, and yet I keep unintentionally writing characters of this type.

 

[HongDou]

The "key differences" would be their motivations - fear of being corrupt/defective vs fear of being worthless and having no value. So to really understand the difference between 2w1 and 2w3 you'd want to understand the difference between 1 and 3 themselves.

Behavior between the two is a lot more fluid because types themselves can be so diverse. But on a general scale, I guess some big differences would be that 2w1 is more principled and perfectionistic while 2w3 is more histrionic and expressive.

I think a lot of people pigeonhole 3s as using status-markers as their only means to feel worth. I honestly believe 3s are a lot less ambitious and ladder-climbing than they're made out to be; having a "big personality" in and of itself can be impressive. Not to say all people in theater and the arts are all 3s, but living in NYC I think there's a culture to them that is very 3. To get the part and make it big you have to stand out apart from the others. I've met some interesting personalities and while they didn't actually seem very status-conscious or anything like that they always stood out. I think that has a lot to do with 3 - if you stand out in people's minds, you have worth. I'm willing to bet a lot of "comedic" personalities are actually on the 2/3 spectrum rather than 7 (down with another stereotype [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]?) because the funny/goofy person does make you feel like you are loved and that you have worth. So I think 2w3s get the "extroverted" rep because there's more of a focus on standing out, being a memorable person, etc.

2w1s I think are a lot less direct when it comes to trying to draw out feelings of love and appreciation. I could see this type dealing with a lot of internal conflict, 2 wanting to get others to make them feel loved while 1 is in the background saying they need to be more rational/principled. In the past my INFJ 2w1 friend suffered in silence a lot as she felt she didn't get the appreciation she deserved despite being such a good friend. I think 2w1s might be more likely to emphasize being a "good" person to receive love because of 1's need for righteousness. Also since 1 is a gut type, 2w1s may struggle with rage more than 2w3 whose needs are completely tied to shame. Also in the case of my 2w1 friend, she definitely exemplifies the "8s in chains" aspect of 1. She has a lot of rage and would rather just steamroll everything in order to get what she wants, but because of her need for integrity she controls herself and channels her rage in a more purposeful way. This also augmented her frustration as she WAS being a "good person" in order to be more lovable, but she wasn't getting what she needed and but she felt like she still couldn't let loose as she was bound by those chains. Happy ending to the story - she learned to accept her anger and negativity and feels more like herself than ever before.

Hope that helped~

 

[Elfboy]

What are the key differences between the two (haha, get it - two)? How do they act, think, and react differently?

It would be really cool to have explanations other than "2w3s are extroverts, 2w1s are introverts," because I don't think that's necessarily true. I'm really interested in how they think and behave.

most 2s of both wings are extroverts (with the exception of Sp 2. some of them are more introverted).

2w1: more self-righteous, proud, comes across a little more adult, more opinionated (imo, 2w1 is the only heart type with any real conviction most of the time), heroic,
2w3: more histrionic, glamorous, tends to be impulsive, a bit more reactive, more "diva"

all 2s: charismatic, emotional, likely to do stupid things in the name of love, often arrogant, crave attention and drama, seductive and fairly entitled


for example: compare 2w3 Katherine Pierce with 2w1 Daenerys Targaryen

 

[Starry]

The "key differences" would be their motivations - fear of being corrupt/defective vs fear of being worthless and having no value. So to really understand the difference between 2w1 and 2w3 you'd want to understand the difference between 1 and 3 themselves.

Behavior between the two is a lot more fluid because types themselves can be so diverse. But on a general scale, I guess some big differences would be that 2w1 is more principled and perfectionistic while 2w3 is more histrionic and expressive.

I think a lot of people pigeonhole 3s as using status-markers as their only means to feel worth. I honestly believe 3s are a lot less ambitious and ladder-climbing than they're made out to be; having a "big personality" in and of itself can be impressive. Not to say all people in theater and the arts are all 3s, but living in NYC I think there's a culture to them that is very 3. To get the part and make it big you have to stand out apart from the others. I've met some interesting personalities and while they didn't actually seem very status-conscious or anything like that they always stood out. I think that has a lot to do with 3 - if you stand out in people's minds, you have worth. I'm willing to bet a lot of "comedic" personalities are actually on the 2/3 spectrum rather than 7 (down with another stereotype [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]?) because the funny/goofy person does make you feel like you are loved and that you have worth. So I think 2w3s get the "extroverted" rep because there's more of a focus on standing out, being a memorable person, etc.

2w1s I think are a lot less direct when it comes to trying to draw out feelings of love and appreciation. I could see this type dealing with a lot of internal conflict, 2 wanting to get others to make them feel loved while 1 is in the background saying they need to be more rational/principled. In the past my INFJ 2w1 friend suffered in silence a lot as she felt she didn't get the appreciation she deserved despite being such a good friend. I think 2w1s might be more likely to emphasize being a "good" person to receive love because of 1's need for righteousness. Also since 1 is a gut type, 2w1s may struggle with rage more than 2w3 whose needs are completely tied to shame. Also in the case of my 2w1 friend, she definitely exemplifies the "8s in chains" aspect of 1. She has a lot of rage and would rather just steamroll everything in order to get what she wants, but because of her need for integrity she controls herself and channels her rage in a more purposeful way. This also augmented her frustration as she WAS being a "good person" in order to be more lovable, but she wasn't getting what she needed and but she felt like she still couldn't let loose as she was bound by those chains. Happy ending to the story - she learned to accept her anger and negativity and feels more like herself than ever before.

Hope that helped~

This is really good Chan...and I honestly feel you've done a better job of capturing the 2w1 and subsequently my Mom than anything I've ever read before. Although as an ENFJ, my Mom doesn't "suffer in silence" like your INFJ friend may. No, her "internal conflict" will undoubtedly become "external conflict" sooner rather than later...and it is a curious thing really when you stop and consider just how many conditions there are hidden in the 2w1's out-pouring of *unconditional love*

Honestly, one of the reasons I like [MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION] so well is because I can catch glimpses of my Mom in a rational, consistent person. Unlike Hard...my Mom holds herself up as the epitome of divine grace until you... cut her off in traffic...or take too much of one dish at the holiday meal...or have a bad day when she doesn't think you should be having a bad day...or merely don't read her mind even (like how no one knows what Beyonce did to suddenly get assigned to her shit list)...And then "you're going down." She will love you to death...and then cause your death haha. Disclaimer: ENFJs are known to break the enneagram and I do not feel my Mom necessarily embodies the spirit of your standard 2w1.

 

[Duffy]

This is really good Chan...and I honestly feel you've done a better job of capturing the 2w1 and subsequently my Mom than anything I've ever read before. Although as an ENFJ, my Mom doesn't "suffer in silence" like your INFJ friend may. No, her "internal conflict" will undoubtedly become "external conflict" sooner rather than later...and it is a curious thing really when you stop and consider just how many conditions there are hidden in the 2w1's out-pouring of *unconditional love*

...or have a bad day when she doesn't think you should be having a bad day...or merely don't read her mind even (like how no one knows what Beyonce did to suddenly get assigned to her shit list)...And then "you're going down." She will love you to death...and then cause your death haha. Disclaimer: ENFJs are known to break the enneagram and I do not feel my Mom necessarily embodies the spirit of your standard 2w1.

There's someone in my family word-for-word this way, especially the bold. I mistyped this person a 6 because the focus on stability and cautiousness, now I wonder if they're a 2. I have a coworker with this pattern as well....torn between 6 or 2.

Tritypes really are a thing.

 

[Starry]

There's someone in my family word-for-word this way, especially the bold.

We are both truly blessed then I see.

I mistyped this person a 6 because the focus on stability and cautiousness, now I wonder if they're a 2. I have a coworker with this pattern as well....torn between 6 or 2.

Tritypes really are a thing.

I have a really difficult time distinguishing between 2 and 6 as well and have definitely mistyped others in my mind. And what's weird is there's actually a handful of very different phenomenon that can trip you up between the two. A 2w1 w/strong connection to 8 can look/act a hell of a lot like 6w5 with cp elements... A 2w3 sx can seduce and manipulate just like the 6w7cp... The 2w3 and 6w7 so can out "warm and friendly and endearing" all other types but their own... and so forth.

I notice a lot of 2s mistype themselves as 6s as well so this isn't just an "outside observer" challenge. Quit messing with our heads 2.

And yes, I was a hold out for so long but had to concede tritype is truly a thing.

 

[HongDou]

A 2w3 sx can seduce and manipulate just like the 6w7cp... The 2w3 and 6w7 so can out "warm and friendly and endearing" all other types but their own... and so forth.

[MENTION=24479]themightyfetus[/MENTION] this is basically in a nutshell why I think so/sx > sx/so for yah

 

[mintleaf]

I think a lot of people pigeonhole 3s as using status-markers as their only means to feel worth. I honestly believe 3s are a lot less ambitious and ladder-climbing than they're made out to be; having a "big personality" in and of itself can be impressive. Not to say all people in theater and the arts are all 3s, but living in NYC I think there's a culture to them that is very 3. To get the part and make it big you have to stand out apart from the others. I've met some interesting personalities and while they didn't actually seem very status-conscious or anything like that they always stood out. I think that has a lot to do with 3 - if you stand out in people's minds, you have worth. I'm willing to bet a lot of "comedic" personalities are actually on the 2/3 spectrum rather than 7 (down with another stereotype Starry?) because the funny/goofy person does make you feel like you are loved and that you have worth.

I think the actor James Roday is a good example of this. His character on Psych is typed as a 7w6, but after reading this post I would bet that Roday is a 3w2 and Shawn a 7w6/3w2 hybrid (making the character not very believable). The self-conscious 3 and 2 energy is pretty blatant, despite the fact that the character's 7ish traits/behaviors are given the most attention: a need to keep things light, distractibility, dilettantism, irresponsibility, information-collecting (well, this is a head-type thing), etc. I've read that 3s create conflict by "charming others, taking on whatever image will work"...that's pretty much the whole show. (Disclaimer: I'm not really a fan, but have friends and family who love it -- the biggest fans being (as far as I can tell) a social 3, another social 3 or 6, and a social 9.)

Also, what you said about 2w1s perfectly fits my mom, a self-typed 2w1.

 

[fetus]

"I need to be funny and unique to be loved." -2w3

That may lead to 7 or 4 mistypings, respectively. Right?

 

[HongDou]

Yah, it could be something like that. Although I bet a lot of young ESFJ 2w3s may ID as ExxP 7 because being a party animal gets them more feelings of love while impressing others at the same time.

Also there's gotta be a degree of misunderstanding for those mistypings to be made - 4s don't have a desire to feel unique as much as they do to find the parts of themselves that cause them suffering, while 7s don't have a desire to be funny (keep things upbeat) as much as they do to distract themselves from their pain. I think 6w7s are also more "comedian" style as growing into their 7 wing helps them cope with their anxiety (Robin Williams or Jennifer Lawrence for example).

 

[Duffy]

[MENTION=24479]themightyfetus[/MENTION]

Yes, but the statement doesn't say anything about 2w3s themselves - their fixation.

"If I'm extraordinary (can include being funny / unique), then I won't be rejected." ~2w3
"If I'm funny and charming, then I won't pose a threat / will be accepted." ~6w7

^In a nutshell, this is how I think the two types can be confused for one another.

 

[thoughtlost]

"I need to be funny and unique to be loved." -2w3

That may lead to 7 or 4 mistypings, respectively. Right?

The reason why people mistype is poor understanding of the enneagram. I just wouldn't look at that and think 4 or 7.

Well, I think that if someone really explored the enneagram system, I don't see how that applies to 7. 7s core is more about freedom/hedonism (not wanting to be tied down). Once you throw in "I need to be X to gain love", anyone who has really explored enneagram would realize that it points to an image type. 7s may want love and will want to get it, but the core mindset isn't "I am unlovable so I need to not be my boring self to gain love"

And for 4s, they don't want to be unique (edit:: well, they do ...because they are). They are unlovable BECAUSE they are unique. So it's the same thing ...they are not trying to be a certain way to gain love. They are themselves ...and unfortunately for them, it makes them feel unloved.

I could be wrong because I am really not a 4 nor am I a 7 ...(wait... but I have 7 in my wing...xDDDDD)

 

[HongDou]

On the topic of 2s and uniqueness, I watched this clip the other day and now I think Ty Lee (acrobat girl) might be a 2w3. She's a clear ESFP tho

 

[thoughtlost]

On the topic of 2s and uniqueness, I watched this clip the other day and now I think Ty Lee (acrobat girl) might be a 2w3. She's a clear ESFP tho

hahaha, these are the only television characters that I can probably type.

Yeah, Ty Lee is positive triad. She is 2w3; makes sense. Those types like to stand out and be noticed.

Mei is a 9, but idk... she is in the withdrawn triad, so 9 works.

Zuko ...idk... an integrating 4.

...I am not even going to try to type Azula =P seems 8ish, though.

 

[thoughtlost]

[MENTION=24479]themightyfetus[/MENTION]

Yes, but the statement doesn't say anything about 2w3s themselves - their fixation.

"If I'm extraordinary (can include being funny / unique), then I won't be rejected." ~2w3
"If I'm funny and charming, then I won't pose a threat / will be accepted." ~6w7

^In a nutshell, this is how I think the two types can be confused for one another.

Yes, I totally agree. 6s and 2s are mixed up often enough. They both can have a strong outward focus, to feel okay internally.
6s have wider variety of orientation though, as sixes are inward and outward at the same time. 2s are usually more consistently outward until they get healthier and focus more inwardly.
6s can go between outward and inward within one individual and some are more inward consistently and other are more outward consistently.

 

[HongDou]

hahaha, these are the only television characters that I can probably type.

Yeah, Ty Lee is positive triad. She 2w3 good makes sense. Those types like to stand out and be noticed.

Mei is a 9, but idk... she is in the withdrawn triad, so 9 works.

Zuko ...idk... an integrating 4.

...I am not even going to try to type Azula =P seems 8ish, though.

ATLA tangent:

I could see Mei as a 9. What she says here definitely fits the "Active Parent vs Neutral Child" description for 9s. Her MBTI is harder for me though besides being an introvert.

Zuko is a hard one for me, like I could see ISTJ or INFP so I don't even wanna think about his Enneagram. I feel like what he said in this clip though sounds 1ish - "I fulfilled all my duties so why am I still angry at myself?"

Azula is definitely an ENTJ 8w7.