[Traditional Enneagram] What does it really mean to be a 2?

[fetus]

I was scrolling through PerC the other day and came across someone saying that 2's aren't very interested in deep thinking or intellectual pursuits. Type 2's seem to be stereotyped as vapid airheads who have no sense of self and only want to gossip, or meddlesome busybodies who only live to please.

Perhaps it is because of these stereotypes that I never considered myself to be a 2 until just recently, and even now they make me wonder.

Before, I thought myself to be a 4w3: I don't give a shit about hosting; my house is my own space and I feel uncomfortable with people invading it (yet 2w3 is called the Hostess). I'm introspective and I like to ponder who I am, and am more aware of my own feelings than other people's. I am a creative individualist who wants to do things her own way. I am offbeat, and am deeply upset when people think I'm boring or normal. I've never overextended myself trying to help other people. 2w3s are supposed to be savvy charmers who make friends effortlessly, but I'm quiet in new situations and have no desire to network or make a bunch of new friends. I think pain is beautiful in its own way. I don't know what to say when other people are upset, I suck at giving advice, and am generally a bit awkward with other people's emotions, but I'm extremely comfortable and attached to my own feelings.

Have any of you 2's ever mistyped as 4's because of stereotypes? How do you break the 2 stereotype?

Lots of typological questions from fetus tonight.

 

[Hawthorne]

I would guess that ~80% of the typology discussion at PerC are nothing more than uninspired, self-fluffing bullshit.
The descriptions are tools to help with perceiving the essence. The stereotypes are possible ways the motivations can manifest but are inherently limited in scope.

"The main issue for heart triad types is that of self-image. They experience love as conditional, and think that one's true self cannot be loved, so they must "put on" a more acceptable persona. In extreme cases, their real self can be subconsciously substituted with the persona that will get them the most approval. In Katherine and David Fauvre's lecture on type 4, they state: "In order to be loved for who I am, I must pretend to be what I am not." Imagine being a kid and getting the lead in the school play. While you're on stage, your parents are in the front row. You see them, watching you. If you do well, you hear them praise you and brag about you to their friends, but there's this sense that it's the performance that is being rewarded, not you as a person. This is most intense in three. For twos, the approval comes through being seen as loving, generous, helpful person. You aren't in the lead, but you are the one that selflessly helps out with the costumes and decorations and you're rewarded for being seen as caring and kind. For fours, there's the sense that you can't ever be the one to get the lead, you're the understudy, you want the accolades of the lead but for some reason it is never available to you, so you come up with something unique and distinctive about yourself, to cover up for the fact that you feel perenially lacking. However the image issues manifest, in each case, the goal is to be adequately mirrored and validated in some way.

The three types of the Feeling Triad are primarily concerned with the development of a self-image. They compensate for a lack of deeper connection with the Essential qualities of the heart by erecting a false identity and becoming identified with it. They then present this image to others (as well as to themselves) in the hope that it will attract love, attention, approval, and a sense of value.

The major themes in this Triad involve identity issues (“Who am I?”) and problems with hostility (“I hate you for not loving me in the way I want!”). Because Twos, Threes, and Fours unconsciously know what their identity is not an expression of who they really are, they respond with hostility whenever their personal-identity is not validated. Hostility serves both to deflect people who might question or devalue this identity, and to defend these types against deeper feelings of shame and humiliation.

Type Two is looking for value in the good regard of others. Twos want to be wanted; they try to obtain favorable reactions by giving people their energy and attention. Twos look for positive responses to their overtures of friendliness, help, and goodness in order to build up their own self-esteem. The focus of their feelings is outward, on others, but as a result, they often have difficulty knowing what their own feelings are telling them. They also frequently feel unappreciated, although, as much as possible, they must conceal the hostile feelings that this generates.

Type Four is the opposite: their energy and attention go inward to maintain a self-image based on feelings, fantasies, and stories from the past. Their personality-identity centers on being “different,” being unlike anyone else, and as a result, they often feel estranged from people. Fours tend to create and sustain moods rather than allow whatever feelings are actually present to arise. Less healthy Fours often see themselves as victims and prisoners of their pasts. They believe that there is no hope of being another way because of all the tragedies and abuses that have befallen them. This is also their way of eliciting attention and pity from others and, hence, some degree of validation.

Type Three, the central type of this Triad (the type positioned on the equilateral triangle), directs attention and energy both inward and outward. Like Twos, Threes need the positive feedback and affirmation of others. Threes primarily seek value through accomplishment; they develop notions about what a valuable person would be like, then try to become that person. But Threes also engage in a great deal of internal “self-talk,” attempting to create and sustain a consistent internal picture of themselves, like Fours. They are always in danger of “believing their own press releases” more than the truth.

Summary:
• Twos are rescuers, Fours are rescuees, Threes do not need rescuing.
• In the Feeling Triad Twos, Threes, and Fours are trying to deal with feelings of shame. Twos become ultragood, trying to be caring and of service to others. Threes become perfect in their performance and outstanding in their achievements. Fours dramatize their losses and hurts and see themselves as victims.
• The Feeling Triad is about maintaining a personal identity.
• These types are past-oriented because our self-image is built up out of memories and interpretations of the past."

From here: Socionics - the16types.info - Explanation of Enneagram Triads

TL;DR: Both 2s and 4s feel unvalued for who they are. 2s fill the hole by doing good by others with the expectation that it will be returned. Problems arise when their efforts aren't acknowledged or appreciated. They will internalize it and see themselves as unacknowledged and unappreciated. 4s fill the hole through resignation that they cannot be what is asked of them, only what they actually are. So they overcompensate for the "worthless authentic self" by overvaluing certain, more personally acceptable, aspects of the self. Core problem being that "who they are" isn't always enough to survive.

 

[HongDou]

One 5:30 AM thought for you, Fetus.

I remember one of the first times I remember seeing you on this forum, you said something along the lines of "I'm not a take charge person, the only time I take charge is when I'm offering words of inspiration for other people." Just something you might want to take a second look at.

 

[Starry]

I thought what you wrote in your blog was simply beautiful mightyfetus (although I would have had the individual gazing up into a starry as opposed to "starless" sky myself but...you know...whatever. it's beautiful with a "Catcher in the Rye" feel to it which I automatically love.)

I'm feeling a push to contribute something here that may be of some benefit to you...I never know...but it comes with a confession that I am of the opinion you are mistyped...

I talk a lot about the Positive Outlook Harmonic - enneagram 2, 7 and 9...being a member of this highly intelligent and breathtakingly sexually attractive group of people myself. And if I ruled the world I would require by law dictator-style suggest you list e2 under your user name.

I'm so tired. We've been having terrible wind storms where I live that are accompanied by public service announcements to protect yourself from falling trees by sleeping... or not...on the ground floor. Finding this thread kinda makes all of the aforementioned okay to me now. So okay that I'm going to do an add-on... and perhaps by next year's storm season...


If I ruled the world I would also very attractively and benevolently suggest you list SFJ under your name as well.

 

[thoughtlost]

enneagram 2s are great!!
They can be a lot of fun in an emotional kind of way.

 

[fetus]

One 5:30 AM thought for you, Fetus.

I remember one of the first times I remember seeing you on this forum, you said something along the lines of "I'm not a take charge person, the only time I take charge is when I'm offering words of inspiration for other people." Just something you might want to take a second look at.

Oh yeah, I think I remember saying that. I have made it my life dream to be spread radical hope to the world. For me, a word of inspiration is not a kind compliment--it is something that sinks into someone else's soul and makes them think, something that changes their life for eternity. That is what I want. I want to shake someone to their core until they see the world in a new light.

Thank you for reminding me of this quote of mine.

I'm so tired. We've been having terrible wind storms where I live that are accompanied by public service announcements to protect yourself from falling trees by sleeping... or not...on the ground floor. Finding this thread kinda makes all of the aforementioned okay to me now. So okay that I'm going to do an add-on... and perhaps by next year's storm season...


If I ruled the world I would also very attractively and benevolently suggest you list SFJ under your name as well.

I can see definitely see myself being a 2 (which might mistake me for Fe), but of all things I know of type theory, I cannot see myself as a Fe type at all, for a substantial amount of reasons that I cannot all go into right now. I plan to write it out them all out on my blog later, if you'd like to stop by there. Anyways, it is apparent in my daily life. I fully recognize, however, that there I have inadvertently created an image of myself on this forum that I fear isn't accurate of my true personality.

As for [MENTION=23915]Sinclair[/MENTION], that is a very thorough description. I appreciate the time you took to find and explain all that information.

 

[thoughtlost]

[MENTION=24479]themightyfetus[/MENTION],

I remember calling you a 6 earlier (so I am sorry if that was wrong for you!! It's good that you're exploring other types to find what fits you best!!).

--it is something that sinks into someone else's soul and makes them think, something that changes their life for eternity. That is what I want. I want to shake someone to their core until they see the world in a new light.

I do not know your MBTI type, but just looking at this statement above would SUGGEST that someone isn't an Fi-dom, because it's rare for an INFP/ISFP to have such goals; to "shake" people as their philosophical goal in life
I can see this being something an ENFP would say, maybe. Other actual ENFPs should weigh in on this since I consider myself to be an xxFJ.
But at the end of the day, this is something an extrovert would say, at the least.

 

[Starry]

I can see definitely see myself being a 2 (which might mistake me for Fe), but of all things I know of type theory, I cannot see myself as a Fe type at all, for a substantial amount of reasons that I cannot all go into right now. I plan to write it out them all out on my blog later, if you'd like to stop by there. Anyways, it is apparent in my daily life. I fully recognize, however, that there I have inadvertently created an image of myself on this forum that I fear isn't accurate of my true personality.

There's so much I could say here... but it would be even more overwhelming to you than I imagine the suggestion of SFJ was in the first place.

If you use the old quote by me that I attached above you can go and read how you responded to my suggestion of e2 for you all those months ago. Back then you were positive you were not a 2...there was just no way... and look where we are now!!! Experience has taught me to be hopeful. I'm going to stand and wait regarding SFJ for a little while longer...just to see.

 

[HongDou]

Oh yeah, I think I remember saying that. I have made it my life dream to be spread radical hope to the world. For me, a word of inspiration is not a kind compliment--it is something that sinks into someone else's soul and makes them think, something that changes their life for eternity. That is what I want. I want to shake someone to their core until they see the world in a new light.

Thank you for reminding me of this quote of mine.

Actually I wasn't saying words of inspiration were some kind of flattery on your part - I get exactly what you're saying. I think the fact that you enjoy uplifting people so much, having such a big positive impact on other people - I think that's what E2 is all about. While external affirmation for E2s is crucial (and I think you understand that it's important to you as well after going through what you have been going through) I think what's most important is to feel you're living a life that makes you worthy of receiving love. It's kind of from the influence from E1 wanting to be a good person, but I also think it's why E2 is almost exclusively an F type. You're living your life in accordance with your value system because your values keep you in touch with what is the "right" thing to do. I think I had trouble seeing you as an ENFP (or ESFP which you also tested as apparently) because you seem so values before perception, so I always saw you as F-dominant above all else. You're someone I'd describe as sensible, gentle, caring, and very aware of how to treat others. Conversely, young ExxPs can have a tendency to put their foot in their mouth because they're running so much on Pe that it's harder to know when to stop.

IRT [MENTION=18445]thoughtlost[/MENTION], I don't see "shaking" people as one of my philosophical goals. I do see where you're coming from with the introvert/extrovert thing though, although actually I can see it being E2-related as well. If I had to choose one "philosophical goal" it'd be a little nihilistic in the sense that at the end of the day it all comes back to my myself. I live for my own experience, which I think could be a little bit why [MENTION=5223]MDP2525[/MENTION] (I think?) said 7s are probably the most openly narcissistic type. My career goal is to become a sex therapist, and while helping others and lifting them up is a valuable benefit I think what I ultimately enjoy the most about therapy is that I get to learn about so many different people. Normally you see so many people in a crowd and realize how intrinsically unique and complex all their lives are but you'll never be able to truly know; therapy to me is like one way of getting to crack those people open. OTOH I think 2s emphasize much more how their actions impact other people.

Also just mentioning [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] to say that ily

Edit: I'm browsing through the empathy thread Starry quoted from right now...and it's funny that [MENTION=23222]senza tema[/MENTION] posted the definition of sonder...which is exactly what I was talking about. Even though it's not related to the thread at hand and it's more related to my rambling oops. But haha we've come full circle!

Also I'm a whoring out the mentions feature today.

 

[thoughtlost]

IRT @thoughtlost, I don't see "shaking" people as one of my philosophical goals. I do see where you're coming from with the introvert/extrovert thing though, although actually I can see it being E2-related as well. If I had to choose one "philosophical goal" it'd be a little nihilistic in the sense that at the end of the day it all comes back to my myself. I live for my own experience, which I think could be a little bit why @MDP2525 (I think?) said 7s are probably the most openly narcissistic type. My career goal is to become a sex therapist, and while helping others and lifting them up is a valuable benefit I think what I ultimately enjoy the most about therapy is that I get to learn about so many different people. Normally you see so many people in a crowd and realize how intrinsically unique and complex all their lives are but you'll never be able to truly know; therapy to me is like one way of getting to crack those people open. OTOH I think 2s emphasize much more how their actions impact other people

okay thank you, [MENTION=17131]Chanaynay[/MENTION] I really didn't know if what she said related to ENFP or not; I kind of made that up on the spot, so I am glad I got your input.

Yeah, I agree with you that personal philosophies tie into the enneagram. It's as you say; E2's focus on being someone who is worthy of love. So an E7 wouldn't necessarily focus on acheiving loveability like an E2 ...but would focus more on the enjoyment of being loved or receiving love. For E7s it's about the experience whereas for E2s being loved is the goal. So I think the various MTBI types would acheive being loved in different ways, and it's most likely to be a E2 feeler (dom/aux) who would focus on achieving love.


Actually, I know a few type 2s in my life. They definitely want to be something "positive" for other people, whether it's going shopping with them to buy Christmas lights for their dorm, planning an easter egg hunt, or just simply keeping in touch and reminding me that they are there for me and want to support me in whatever way they can. They are always looking for ways to be active in other people's lives. "shaking" is just one other way an E2 can get people to notice and love them... that's sounded so funny...

 

[great_bay]

I always thought type 2 was the least interesting part of my personality. No offense to anyone else who identify strongly with their type 2. Being a type 2 completely contradicts my personality. I have the title as a researcher according the tri-type.

 

[chubber]

hmmm, [MENTION=18559]Inis Mona[/MENTION] was right

 

[hjgbujhghg]

hmmm, [MENTION=18559]Inis Mona[/MENTION] was right

Was I? What do you mean?

 

[chubber]

Was I? What do you mean?

I thought you said she wasn't a 4 in her "type me" thread.

 

[fetus]

I mean I see how I could've mistyped as a 4 because of my Fi. I base my identity off being unique, sensitive, and idiosyncratic, but ultimately, my main desire is to feel deeply loved by my close circle. (Though I would far rather be called weird than helpful.) I have many 4 traits, but my main desire aligns with 2. And I want to change the world using my uniqueness and idiosyncrasy as a tool. That 2 desire to inspire (rhyme!) does not manifest at all in practical ways, such as hosting or care taking. It's more about realizing change within myself, living it out, and trying to change people's souls. I am concerned with inner healing and not so much with bodily healing and practical issues.

I also believe that being a 2 gives the impression that I use Fe. At least that I am sure of (Fi rationalization on my private blog). And if I did use Fe, I certainly wouldn't be an ExFJ.

Also, I do have some issue with the 2w3 label because I'm not a charmer or a socializer. It takes me forever to open up in new situations and settings, if I ever do at all. I live in a state of always wanting a little more freedom and time by myself. Even at this moment, I am sitting in an empty, quiet bathroom during free period, and I wouldn't change a thing. I do not associate these behaviors with 2w3.

I can deliver a beautiful speech to the masses and appear charismatic on stage, but it's tiring for me and makes me want to take a nap afterwards. But I like the acclaim. I like when people are impressed with me. So I enjoy giving a speech, hearing the applause, and bolting off to go home, leaving them to wonder where I went (Bilbo at this birthday party sort of thing). So this is why I say 3 wing over 1 wing.

This was a long-winded explanation. I didn't mean to make this yet another type me thread, because I've made my fair share of those already, and I'm annoying myself.

 

[hjgbujhghg]

I thought you said she wasn't a 4 in her "type me" thread.

oh, yeah I did, that was a long time ago.

 

[fetus]

"Would you rather be unique, or would you rather be loved and wanted?"

Unanswerable question. The two are synonymous for me. I cannot imagine myself receiving love if I am not unique. I must be unique to receive love. Conversely, I cannot be unique without receiving love, because if I am not receiving love, it means I am not unique. I would shrivel.

Does that make sense?

 

[HongDou]

The thing is, I don't actually think a 4 would actually emphasize their uniqueness in the same way. That core motivation of 4 isn't to set themselves apart from others - feeling separate and different is where their problem starts. From my understanding 4s can often be composed, formal, and distant because they feel so much shame over their difference - their "uniqueness" feels more like a deficiency than it does a gift. But because they feel like they have to be honest with themselves they're determined to find the source of their inherently flawed self-image (the holy idea of 4 is "the origin" iirc).

I remember talking to an INFP 4 who said that if they were expressing themselves, it would either have to be making a joke out of themselves or it would have to be so painfully serious that it'd probably be so unsettling that everyone would become immediately uncomfortable. OTOH, with the poems and art I've seen you put out on here it seems much more like you have the rose-tinted lens of a positive outlook type. Like you said, you feel uniqueness and lovability go hand-in-hand.

One of my closest family friends identifies as INFJ 2w3, but originally he tested as 4w3. He always told me he thought it was very important to feel unique and different from other people, but the goal for him was to actually set himself apart. Although it's probably not the best analogy considering your nature, it reminds me almost of marketing. If you're selling a product, you have to make sure your customer knows why he should be buying from YOU and not the retail store down the street. What makes you separate and unique from the others is what gives you appeal over the others.

I think a lot of 2s and 3s (who are more introverted and less socially confident than how they're made out to be in their descriptions) can mistype as 4. It's really ironic actually, because the "unique" quality that 4s are emphasized to have in their descriptions is what actually causes them so much grief, while for 2s and 3s that same uniqueness would make them feel more lovable and impressive respectively. Going back to what I said about the rose-tinted lens I perceived you to have, because you put such a positive spin on your "uniqueness" and "idiosyncrasy" that is what I feel is classically 2.

While yes this thread is circling back around to your own self-typing I think you're opening up an opportunity for dialogue about 2s and you know...the title.

Also any 4s feel free to step in and speak up if something sounds off.

 

[cascadeco]

The thing is, I don't actually think a 4 would actually emphasize their uniqueness in the same way. That core motivation of 4 isn't to set themselves apart from others - feeling separate and different is where their problem starts. From my understanding 4s can often be composed, formal, and distant because they feel so much shame over their difference - their "uniqueness" feels more like a deficiency than it does a gift. But because they feel like they have to be honest with themselves they're determined to find the source of their inherently flawed self-image (the holy idea of 4 is "the origin" iirc).

Don't know about other 4's, but I can relate to this.

 

[thoughtlost]

I think a lot of 2s and 3s (who are more introverted and less socially confident than how they're made out to be in their descriptions) can mistype as 4. It's really ironic actually, because the "unique" quality that 4s are emphasized to have in their descriptions is what actually causes them so much grief, while for 2s and 3s that same uniqueness would make them feel more lovable and impressive respectively. Going back to what I said about the rose-tinted lens I perceived you to have, because you put such a positive spin on your "uniqueness" and "idiosyncrasy" that is what I feel is classically 2.

Just to add supported anecdote from my E2 friends in real life:

The focus is to sell oneself, doesn't matter what that self actually is. I have a friend that will ALWAYS put a positive spin on any aspect of herself to avoid admitting that she has a flaw. And if she does admit that she has a flaw, then she brushes it away so it's not noticeable to her and then gets annoyed with the other person for stating out her flaws and think that the person doesn't love them (and then she paints the whistleblower as the flawed one...). No matter what, she has to see herself in a positive light. At the end of the day, almost no one truly sees her as a helpful person. They see her as extremely self-centered despite her complaining about what a good "friend" she is. She can actually say REALLY degrading things about other people.

...keep in mind that I am sure this friend of mine is extremely unhealthy, so it's not this bad with all E2s.

2w1 people, I've noticed, are slightly different. I've noticed that my 2w1 friend will admit her flaws, apologize for mistakes and not try to spin it into a positive light. It's much easier to hang out with her and joke around with her about her flaws (the flaws are not that big of a deal with my 2w1; the only real issue is that she puts her interests/health last ....wait, I guess that is a big deal haha). Whereas my 2w3 friend is a pain. You can't even suggest that she may have hurt your feelings/literally anything negative about her without her hinting that she'll think less of you for it