Questioning the Enneagram

[Magic Poriferan]

Hmmm. I'll have to think about that analysis for a while. The reason I like my new terms better is because they have a more psychological element to them. The words active, passive, and reactive are much to general/ambiguous. With words like pursuing, avoiding, or anticipating, it doesn't just speak of actions, but actually gives you an idea of what's going on in the person's mind. It has more to do with the strategy of a person's action, which is really what this is about.

 

[Delphyne]

It's okay then, no problem. And you're probably right about what you say, as an INFJ I do best to approach the Enneagram from Ni, still sometimes you just gotta let it out... :steam: I think I fell in love with it a little at first, a little too much so I had to "liberate" myself from it... I still see it's useful, but I'll be a bit more cautious about it from now on.

I agree, sometimes you just have to turn orange. It gives a bit of variety to your peaceful yellow face. Green is a great color, too.


The enneagram is a nice tool to understand yourself and other people. You can have fun with the enneagram, type famous people, cartoon characters and even your beloved house pet. Some people like to explore the theoretical facets, for example, hidden lines or the trifix, others are more interested in its practical application and like to know which type will be the best in regard to a romantic relationship. All of this can prove itself valuable and sometimes funny, too.

Below the surface there´s another dimension of self-awareness which you can only grasp through experience. If you have a happy life, it´s unlikely you will see the full amount of your dark hidden sides. After all, the enneagram is based on nine passions - anger, pride, deceit, envy, avarice, fear, gluttony, lust, and sloth. Some things will only show themselves if you´re facing some sort of crisis. Maybe that sounds a bit mystical, but it´s my experience and what I´ve seen from others that the enneagram can open some doors of self-awareness after years of knowing the enneagram. It´s a great tool.

 

[sleepless]

I agree, sometimes you just have to turn orange. It gives a bit of variety to your peaceful yellow face. Green is a great color, too.

Oh yes, green, of course, not my first choice but I suppose I could give it a try

The enneagram is a nice tool to understand yourself and other people. You can have fun with the enneagram, type famous people, cartoon characters and even your beloved house pet. Some people like to explore the theoretical facets, for example, hidden lines or the trifix, others are more interested in its practical application and like to know which type will be the best in regard to a romantic relationship. All of this can prove itself valuable and sometimes funny, too.

I've been thinking a bit about this typing-thing, and to be honest I think that I as an INFJ should be careful with doing it, as it can be yet another of those situations when the INFJ gets stuck on details (Ti), thus missing out in the bigger picture (Ni). Maybe this sounds overly serious, but well... to those on this forum who haven't noticed yet, I'm very seriously concerned with personal development... heh. The thing is that Ni is a kind of wordless perception, a seeing which transcends words, labels and categorizations, and that is not a business Ti should get itself involved in. The only occasions when I do well to type others is when my Ni can get something out of it as well; if typing a person can make me actually realize that s/he really is this type, with the basic fear/desire and everything else fitting in, then I have gained something. And so I should quickly leave my Ti behind again.

Below the surface there´s another dimension of self-awareness which you can only grasp through experience. If you have a happy life, it´s unlikely you will see the full amount of your dark hidden sides. After all, the enneagram is based on nine passions - anger, pride, deceit, envy, avarice, fear, gluttony, lust, and sloth. Some things will only show themselves if you´re facing some sort of crisis. Maybe that sounds a bit mystical, but it´s my experience and what I´ve seen from others that the enneagram can open some doors of self-awareness after years of knowing the enneagram. It´s a great tool.

Well, now we're getting somewhere! And I don't plan to live a "happy" life, you know, being "content" with everything, rather I look forward to years of more self-discovery and insight, ready for anything as I keep pursuing my Ni vision.

 

[Delphyne]

I've been thinking a bit about this typing-thing, and to be honest I think that I as an INFJ should be careful with doing it, as it can be yet another of those situations when the INFJ gets stuck on details (Ti), thus missing out in the bigger picture (Ni). Maybe this sounds overly serious, but well... to those on this forum who haven't noticed yet, I'm very seriously concerned with personal development... heh. The thing is that Ni is a kind of wordless perception, a seeing which transcends words, labels and categorizations, and that is not a business Ti should get itself involved in. The only occasions when I do well to type others is when my Ni can get something out of it as well; if typing a person can make me actually realize that s/he really is this type, with the basic fear/desire and everything else fitting in, then I have gained something. And so I should quickly leave my Ti behind again.

Now I´m wondering. My INFJ friend and I sometimes rub against each other because of our different approach. He´s very much interested in the precise definition of some theory and first likes to understand its weak points, whereas I want to use a theory and see if its workable. Ni shifts the perception, but it doesn´t look at the big picture, that´s Ne. Indeed, my friend doesn´t believe that there´s some thing like a big picture, only different ways of looking at something. If he uses only Ni he will deconstruct the enneagram till nothing´s left or he will put a lot of emphasis on minor sentences. But he´s really good at understanding it if he involves his Fe and his empathy. I get stuck on details if I don´t have a lot of information and have to struggle to understand what a theory is all about. Give me a few nice examples, show me how a gestalt is moving, flood my perception with Ne and I will see the big picture. (hopefully)

Well, now we're getting somewhere! And I don't plan to live a "happy" life, you know, being "content" with everything, rather I look forward to years of more self-discovery and insight, ready for anything as I keep pursuing my Ni vision.

You see yourself as a Four, don´t you? Fours are never content and ironically they use development as a means to discover their hidden stigma in order to be content and happy.

 

[sleepless]

Now I´m wondering. My INFJ friend and I sometimes rub against each other because of our different approach. He´s very much interested in the precise definition of some theory and first likes to understand its weak points, whereas I want to use a theory and see if its workable. Ni shifts the perception, but it doesn´t look at the big picture, that´s Ne. Indeed, my friend doesn´t believe that there´s some thing like a big picture, only different ways of looking at something.

You're right, I'm not using the proper words here. Perhaps what I meant with "big picture" should rather be described as "perspective" or "way of looking"... what I mean is that as a primary Ni you need to develop your very own perspective and avoid losing it as when getting obsessed with details...

If he uses only Ni he will deconstruct the enneagram till nothing´s left or he will put a lot of emphasis on minor sentences.

But this is what I mean with Ti, it's like what I did in the beginning of this thread. Also how your friend concern with precise definitions sounds like Ti. I admit I'm not as much an expert on the functions as I'd like to be, but still... this link for example.

Introverted Thinking

But he´s really good at understanding it if he involves his Fe and his empathy.

This is something I have to remember myself, to stay in tune with Fe as it gives direction to Ni. Ni in itself can come up with a hundred different perspectives, but has no way to determine which ones are interesting and which ones can be dismissed.

You see yourself as a Four, don´t you? Fours are never content and ironically they use development as a means to discover their hidden stigma in order to be content and happy.

Now how did you guess that? And not only am I Four, I am "self-preservational" and with a Five-wing too, so self-development/-understanding naturally comes very high up on the list.

 

[Delphyne]

But this is what I mean with Ti, it's like what I did in the beginning of this thread. Also how your friend concern with precise definitions sounds like Ti. I admit I'm not as much an expert on the functions as I'd like to be, but still... this link for example.

Introverted Thinking

Ok, now I see my error. What you described in the beginning of the thread didn´t fit my experience of how Ti operates because I compared it to the utilization as a dominant function in INTPs. Ti is a holistic function and INTPs analyse a theory from the inside to gain understanding without normally getting stuck on details. As a tertiary function in INFJs it seems to lack the connecting aspect which INTPs get by means of their Ne.

This is something I have to remember myself, to stay in tune with Fe as it gives direction to Ni. Ni in itself can come up with a hundred different perspectives, but has no way to determine which ones are interesting and which ones can be dismissed.

Although they share the first three letters, INFJ and INFP are really different. I need the different perspectives Ne can provide because I tend to dismiss something as irrelevant or wrong without really experiencing it. If I´m flooded with Ne I feel in tune with the different perspectives and find my way easily.

Now how did you guess that? And not only am I Four, I am "self-preservational" and with a Five-wing too, so self-development/-understanding naturally comes very high up on the list.

May I offer you my warmest sympathies.

 

[sleepless]

Ok, now I see my error. What you described in the beginning of the thread didn´t fit my experience of how Ti operates because I compared it to the utilization as a dominant function in INTPs. Ti is a holistic function and INTPs analyse a theory from the inside to gain understanding without normally getting stuck on details. As a tertiary function in INFJs it seems to lack the connecting aspect which INTPs get by means of their Ne.

Haha, I had almost forgotten this, how Ti in INTPs is quite different - holistic - from how INFJs use Ti. Have to remember that one, or I'll just wonder how on earth anyone can have Primary Ti...

Although they share the first three letters, INFJ and INFP are really different. I need the different perspectives Ne can provide because I tend to dismiss something as irrelevant or wrong without really experiencing it. If I´m flooded with Ne I feel in tune with the different perspectives and find my way easily.

Yes, I suppose we all need to stay in tune with our 2nd functions. And I know just how different INFJs/Ps can seem to each other, but they are generally working towards the same goal (making the world a better place), and hopefully, if they accept the other's different approach, they can work complementary and provide insights to one another.

May I offer you my warmest sympathies.

Aww... thanks. And the same to you. ^^

 

[hommefatal]

The Enneagram doesn't derive its nine archetypes from some Ti process, it simply assumes the archetypes are true.

Now, there is a Ti-discernable structure built on TOP of those nine archetypes, especially when we start discussing directions of (dis)integration as well as the impact of the wings and variants.

But the initial complaint, that the nine types can't be derived exclusively from reality, is correct. You either accept it or you do not. We can see some people who conform to the archetypes; others do not; and we have no real idea if the nine types are exclusively true and encompass all of human nature.

Ni can find it useful because it sees it merely as one system/viewpoint and doesn't need it to be directly derived from reality nor exclusive.

Function typology, meanwhile proposes it does cover all of human beings, if it focuses on the binaries. You are either T or F, S or N, E or I, or some gray inside each grouping... but you can't be Z (for example) on the T/F spectrum, Z doesn't exist except for Z = some combination of T/F.

MBTI then builds sixteen archetypes off the binary pairings.

True. Those types inspire me.