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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    <break down of 9-types into two 3-valued variable>
    Interesting. Thanks for that.

    You discount wings needing to be next to each other?

    But what do wings actually mean? --just that you are on the border?

    Isn't that analogous to an INxP not knowing what their dominant function is? But most MB enthusiasits don't dispute that the auxiliary function of a healthy type ought to be the opposite orientation, and opposite on the judging/perceiving type of function. Would you say an INxP is FiTi or TiFi?

    Also, what about the core desires/fears, levels of health, and directions of (dis)integration?

    How do those fit in?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  2. #22
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Interesting. Thanks for that.

    You discount wings needing to be next to each other?

    But what do wings actually mean? --just that you are on the border?
    They theoretically refer to the type you most like next to your primary type. It's that simple. I'm saying that there is not reason that they should have to be adjacent, because the ordering of the types is totally irrelevant. It has nothing to do with what the types are actually like.

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Isn't that analogous to an INxP not knowing what their dominant function is? But most MB enthusiasits don't dispute that the auxiliary function of a healthy type ought to be the opposite orientation, and opposite on the judging/perceiving type of function. Would you say an INxP is FiTi or TiFi?
    I don't think the wings have anything to do with unknowns. They simple have to do with what's next in line in terms of similarity. Which is why instead of just doing one wing, I would encourage people to run down the list from top to bottom to see which types they are most and least like. In my case, I believe it would be 1> 6> 5> 4> 2> 3> 9> 8> 7.

    I don't know what an INXP's function order is, but that's a different issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Also, what about the core desires/fears, levels of health, and directions of (dis)integration?

    How do those fit in?
    Well, I'm not sure that they are true. Any of those things. I know, that's a pretty heavy pronouncement, but my analysis of all of this has cast much of the particulars of the enneagram into doubt. I feel like a lot of the theorists got carried away with unwarranted contrivances. Still, I haven't actually drawn a conclusion about those things you mention. I'm looking into them.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #23
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    INXP's function order would be Ji, Ne, Si, Je.

    Let's see, which types I'm most and least like, for you, MP.

    5 > 9 > 8 > 7 > 6 > 4 > 3 > 1 > 2 I think.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, I'm not sure that they are true. Any of those things. I know, that's a pretty heavy pronouncement, but my analysis of all of this has cast much of the particulars of the enneagram into doubt. I feel like a lot of the theorists got carried away with unwarranted contrivances. Still, I haven't actually drawn a conclusion about those things you mention. I'm looking into them.
    That's too bad. Those were the things I found interesting about the enneagram. Having yet another trait based categorization people doesn't seem to add much value unless it aids in development or yields insight into motivation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    INXP's function order would be Ji, Ne, Si, Je.

    Let's see, which types I'm most and least like, for you, MP.

    5 > 9 > 8 > 7 > 6 > 4 > 3 > 1 > 2 I think.
    I was just using the INxP to see if maybe wings we similar to function order in MBTI. Guess not. There are a lot of reasons people could test close on the T-F dichotomy. I often test as INFP. But, I think it is because my Fi+Fe functions are close to my Ti+Te in strength. Nevertheless, my Ti>>Fi>Fe, so I type my self as INTP, and my function order is something like Ti-Ne-Ni-Si-Fi-Fe-Te-Se.

    Where is a good place to get a break down like like the ones you and MP got for the Enneagram?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  5. #25
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    INXP's function order would be Ji, Ne, Si, Je.

    Let's see, which types I'm most and least like, for you, MP.

    5 > 9 > 8 > 7 > 6 > 4 > 3 > 1 > 2 I think.
    Hmmm... I might be able to improve that order. It would only be possible if you could actually give me some clear answers about who you are, though.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  6. #26
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Hmmm... I might be able to improve that order. It would only be possible if you could actually give me some clear answers about who you are, though.
    I have no idea who the hell I am. I just know how to work the levers and press the buttons to make whatever the hell I am work.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  7. #27
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    That's too bad. Those were the things I found interesting about the enneagram. Having yet another trait based categorization people doesn't seem to add much value unless it aids in development or yields insight into motivation.
    Well, let me say that the directions of (dis)-integration seem unaccaptably abitrary, even for a system like this. When pages talk about how a type positively or negativel relates to all other types, it makes a little more sense. But when anyone writes this very defined lines from point to point, it's a bit dubious.

    As for the concept of levels of health and core fears, those could still easily exist, but their definitions might need a little re-tooling. Each one of the nine combinations does create a very distinctive mentality, which is what I find fascinationg. The MB types don't seem to me like much more than the sum of their parts, but some how the Enneagram types do.


    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Where is a good place to get a break down like like the ones you and MP got for the Enneagram?
    What do you mean? Almost everything I'm talking about here is my own invention.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, let me say that the directions of (dis)-integration seem unaccaptably abitrary, even for a system like this. When pages talk about how a type positively or negativel relates to all other types, it makes a little more sense. But when anyone writes this very defined lines from point to point, it's a bit dubious.

    As for the concept of levels of health and core fears, those could still easily exist, but their definitions might need a little re-tooling. Each one of the nine combinations does create a very distinctive mentality, which is what I find fascinationg. The MB types don't seem to me like much more than the sum of their parts, but some how the Enneagram types do.
    I actually like to see specifics like that, in a theory. Because, if accurate, they are very usable. It make me wonder "why that, one." But still, it seems more usable because of it.

    For example:
    The claim is for a 5, the direction of integration is towards 8. So (at least in theory) as I mature in a healthy manner, I would be more like a healthy 8. I like that sort of thing (again, if it is accurate).


    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    What do you mean? Almost everything I'm talking about here is my own invention.
    I meant, I know I test as a 5, but I don't know the rest. I thought there was a test that gave preference order, but I don't remember where I took it.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  9. #29
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I actually like to see specifics like that, in a theory. Because, if accurate, they are very usable. It make me wonder "why that, one." But still, it seems more usable because of it.


    For example:
    The claim is for a 5, the direction of integration is towards 8. So (at least in theory) as I mature in a healthy manner, I would be more like a healthy 8. I like that sort of thing (again, if it is accurate).
    I know the process. I just have ever increasing reason to believe that it is not accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I meant, I know I test as a 5, but I don't know the rest. I thought there was a test that gave preference order, but I don't remember where I took it.
    It was probably the test at similarminds.com. It has nothing to do with how I determined my order, though.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  10. #30
    Member sleepless's Avatar
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    MP, you came up with that by yourself? :O Anyway, thanks, very interesting. =) It actually can be derived from something, then. And that makes the directions of (dis)integration much easier to investigate. For example: Avoiding/Turbulent = 4 >>>growth>>> Anticipating/Suppressive = 1
    But then suddenly this seems arbitrary. Maybe there's something more needed to explain why 4 goes to 1... hm...



    And I know the criticism in my initial post wasn't very balanced; I didn't mean there's nothing at all good with Enneagram, those of you who have pointed out how useful it can be are of course right as well...

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