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  1. #11

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    I am n00b when it comes to enneagram, but I just wanted to make a comment on categories in general.

    ALL categories/types/whatever are essentially arbritrary. This is true in any field. There are constraints on how you can make a categorical system where things are mutually exclusice. But it seems like MBTI and enneagram are both fuzzy on the boundaries they use.

    Categories are conceptions of the human mind. They ALWAYS are. It is a question of whether or not the categorization is usable or not as way of describing reality.

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  2. #12
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I am n00b when it comes to enneagram, but I just wanted to make a comment on categories in general.

    ALL categories/types/whatever are essentially arbritrary. This is true in any field. There are constraints on how you can make a categorical system where things are mutually exclusice. But it seems like MBTI and enneagram are both fuzzy on the boundaries they use.

    Categories are conceptions of the human mind. They ALWAYS are. It is a question of whether or not the categorization is usable or not as way of describing reality.
    jungian functions are much less fuzzy than enneagram types, though.

    the good thing about the jung function approach is that it takes the concept of cognition, and divides by two three times, each time with a distinct boundary of division that can be added back together to go a level back up.

    the real fuzziness of MBTI is when you try to type by dichotomies... which is why i gave up that approach a long time ago.

    i've inferred that there is a similar way of breaking down enneagram types, but i have no idea what that is...

  3. #13
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    jungian functions are much less fuzzy than enneagram types, though.
    Yeah, that is what I was trying to say above when I mentioned how the binary-pair approach makes sure all ground is covered, whereas the enneagram 9 distinct foundational archetype approach does not ensure that there aren't cracks between the archetypes that people could fall into.
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  4. #14
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    jungian functions are much less fuzzy than enneagram types, though.

    the good thing about the jung function approach is that it takes the concept of cognition, and divides by two three times, each time with a distinct boundary of division that can be added back together to go a level back up.

    the real fuzziness of MBTI is when you try to type by dichotomies... which is why i gave up that approach a long time ago.

    i've inferred that there is a similar way of breaking down enneagram types, but i have no idea what that is...
    good call

    thats my approach

    though the enneagram is extremely useful if you want to narrow people down within the types
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  5. #15
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    If anyone wants to see how I have broken the Enneagram down into specific variables, I can tell you all.

    The Enneagram isn't really much simpler than the MBTI, it's just dressed up to look simpler, to simulate purity. It's an aesthetic ploy, in other words.
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  6. #16
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    If anyone wants to see how I have broken the Enneagram down into specific variables, I can tell you all.

    The Enneagram isn't really much simpler than the MBTI, it's just dressed up to look simpler, to simulate purity. It's an aesthetic ploy, in other words.
    it has something to do with two categories that have three options each, yeah?

    i want to hear your breakdown, if you're willing to give it.

  7. #17
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    it has something to do with two categories that have three options each, yeah?

    i want to hear your breakdown, if you're willing to give it.
    Okay. The one I'm going to give is a bit scrappy, so don't get too picky with it. As you know, if a personality trait is described in only a few words, there are often things that seem confusing or unsatisfying. I might expound on this in more detail later.

    As you said, there are two variables, each with three values. 3 x 3 = 9, so that's the number of types right there.

    The first variable is sort of the behavioral variable. This is the one that really decides how a person approaches challenges is life. to put it vaguely. The best single words I've found for these types so far is pursuing, avoiding, and anticipating.

    So, pursuing types have targets that they very pro-actively pursue. It could be that they seek pleasure, or they aim to pre-emptively tackle problems, the actual target of their pursuits is determined by other variable. They are impatient, impetuous people. They also tend to over-estimate the benefit end of cost-benefit analyses, which is one of the things that make them aggressive. They expect to profit from adventures. These types are 3, 7, and 8.

    So then we have avoidant types. They generally over-estimate the cost end of cost-benefit analyses. These people tend to spend more time on avoiding what they don't like than they do on seeking what they do like. When they can't avoid stress, they often fall into an almost fatalistic state of passivity. Throwing weight around is something these types seem to have particular distaste for. These types are 4, 5, and 9.

    So, the anticipating types do not pursue nor avoid these highlights of life. They stand and deal with them whenever they come. They handle life like a tetris player. These people have a more balanced view of cost-benefit analysis, but perhaps too balanced sometimes. These people don't like making dramatic decisions the same way the other two can, which can make for missed opportunites. These types are 1, 2, and 6.

    The second variable is one that regards emotional states and responses. They can be turbulent, supressive, or controling, for lack of better words.

    The turbulent ones are the people that do not hinder their emotions at all. They let their moods tempestually flare with every feeling as it is set off. Their emotions run wild. They often seem to tilt toward being more negative than positive, but I think this is largely just because there are more negative emotions than positive ones, not because these types particularly want to dwell on negativity. These types are 4, 6, and 8.

    The suppressive types try to keep their emotions from speaking up. They tend to believe that they can work best when they are not hearing thier emotions much or at all. By defualt they are well composed people. But when they fail to successfully supress their emotions, it often results in awkward displays. These types are 1, 3, and 5.

    The controlling types are the ones that try to manipulate the flow of their own feelings to their advantage. These are the people that try to think positive. They make an effort to both display desirable emotions to others, and to also frequently reassure themselves of such good feelings. Most usually pick feelings like confidence, happiness, or love to project, but they may develop whatever feeling is appealing to them. They are also prone to suffering from denial, and usually take it very hard if their self-assurances can be completely disproven. These types are 2, 7, and 9.

    So, to summarize the types:
    Pursuing/Turbulent = 8. Avoiding/Turbulent = 4. Anticipating/Turbulent = 6. Pursuing/Suppressive = 3. Avoiding/Suppressive = 5. Anticipating/Suppressive = 1. Pursuing/Controlling = 7. Avoiding/Controlling = 9. Anticipating/Controlling = 2.

    That's my explanation for now. I think it's pretty crappy, to be honest. If you are particularly interested, Dissonance, then I can surely do a better job actually discussing my theories directly.
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  8. #18
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    dude, that description was awesome. it's a great start for me to build a framework of enneagram types.

    thank you.

    (and i'm SOOOOOOOOOOOOO 9)

    also, i can totally see why you throw away the wing theory. i'd call myself a 9w5 from that perspective.

    p.s. i think you may be an INFJ.

  9. #19
    Senior Member dnivera's Avatar
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    The enneagram's origins are mysterious, probably from Sufi Mysticism (according to Don Riso's book). Hence all the numerology and sacred geometry and all that; it's a product of ancient spiritual traditions and thinking and influences from the ancient world (classical philosophy, gnosticism, islam, etc). It's an artifact of that world.

    Jungian type theory is much, much younger, and essentially a product of the modern era. Perhaps that's why it makes more intuitive sense to us and we "get" it more easily - it's based on logic, and easy to follow. I don't see any potential hidden corners of insight that I can get from Jungian theory (and so it's one-dimensional in many ways to me), whereas with enneagram, the hidden interconnections between each number are huge and have immense potential. I get those "wow, so that's why...." moments much more with enneagram than Jung.
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  10. #20
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    dude, that description was awesome. it's a great start for me to build a framework of enneagram types.

    thank you.

    (and i'm SOOOOOOOOOOOOO 9)

    also, i can totally see why you throw away the wing theory. i'd call myself a 9w5 from that perspective.
    That was a better reaction than I would have expected. Thank you.

    EDIT: Indeed, the lack of wings of adjacent wings becomes rather clear. I have some ideas about how types actually relate to each other. I also noticed how when formed in this way, it becomes apparent that the Instinctual variant system is a perfect fit. It is also a three value variable, and covers a factor which the other two do not.

    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    p.s. i think you may be an INFJ.
    No! I'm an INTP, and if anything else, I'm more like an INFP. I am not an INFJ.
    When will it end?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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