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Thread: 4 vs. 3

  1. #1

    Default 4 vs. 3

    Here is something I found very interesting and also worth of some thought:
    Taken from Deconstructing the Enneagram | Personality Research

    I find a lot of conflation and convolution between type 3 and type 4 descriptions such that aspects of many Enneagram authors type 4 descriptions contain type 3 behaviors. The need to be special correlates with the type 3 core fixation, not the type 4 core fixation. Envy is also an issue for unhealthy type 3s, not type 4s as most Enneagram authors claim. Envy is antithetical to a type that overvalues authenticity (being true to self). To be envious of others is to betray oneself, and the flaw of Type 4s is being overly loyal to their unique nature. Fours romanticize their different-ness and/or their flaws rather than feel shame as a someone who scores high on Type 3 would. Being dramatic, another common type four errant description is type 3 attention seeking behavior. Thus, a lot of self typed fours are actually threes. There is no reason a person can't be high in both types, but on average, there is no correlation between type 3 and type 4.

    I wonder what are your thoughts about this? Did it make you to consider the basic differences between 3 and 4? Is it accurate enough to relly spot the differences?
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    It isn't so much that characteristics are being attributed inaccurately so much as I think the essence of the types are lost with words. It's like translating Chinese characters into English. You lose meaning and it comes across too literally. You need to get a feel for it and recognize the patterns. It's completely subjective in the end.

    For instance, envy or any of the sins attributed to types aren't to be taken too literally. There are 4s who are very hostile towards others. They say they're being true to themselves, but underneath it all, there's a contempt and sadness for the happiness that comes so easily to others. In my opinion, that's envy, and it's at the root of all issues.

    *Edit*

    With that said, I do think this type is overtyped and overrated (4). I despise the the ones that type as it because of the usual shallow reasons, which is why I distance myself. Who knows, maybe I'm mistyped.
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    Junior Member Quillian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inis Mona View Post
    Here is something I found very interesting and also worth of some thought:
    Taken from Deconstructing the Enneagram | Personality Research

    I find a lot of conflation and convolution between type 3 and type 4 descriptions such that aspects of many Enneagram authors type 4 descriptions contain type 3 behaviors. The need to be special correlates with the type 3 core fixation, not the type 4 core fixation. Envy is also an issue for unhealthy type 3s, not type 4s as most Enneagram authors claim. Envy is antithetical to a type that overvalues authenticity (being true to self). To be envious of others is to betray oneself, and the flaw of Type 4s is being overly loyal to their unique nature. Fours romanticize their different-ness and/or their flaws rather than feel shame as a someone who scores high on Type 3 would. Being dramatic, another common type four errant description is type 3 attention seeking behavior. Thus, a lot of self typed fours are actually threes. There is no reason a person can't be high in both types, but on average, there is no correlation between type 3 and type 4.

    I wonder what are your thoughts about this? Did it make you to consider the basic differences between 3 and 4? Is it accurate enough to relly spot the differences?
    I disagree with it. 4s do value authenticity, but that is in no way antithetical to envy. In trying to be authentic 4s end up over-identifying with a flawed self-image (which, ironically, isn't really authentic); thus, envy of others is very understandable.. they are determined to be true to themselves and not sacrifice any part of their identity, but they still watch from a distance & envy the ease others have in life. I don't think the author has a great understanding of type 4. Envy is very deeply four-ish. I agree that envy shouldn't be taken so literally, perhaps it's better described as how 4s tend to notice their own lack and have a lot of longing. 4 envy is different from 3 envy in that 4s see themselves more hopelessly less than others, while envious 3s find it much easier to believe that they can surpass the object of their envy.
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    I agree with @Quillian and @Hijynx re how envy plays into the psych of a 4.
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    So the author spends a lot of time discussing what a 4 isn't. What exactly does he think a 4 is?

    (Or, I ask mostly tongue-in-cheek, does he believe that it's unique and special enough that it can't be described?)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hijynx View Post

    With that said, I do think this type is overtyped and overrated (4). I despise the the ones that type as it because of the usual shallow reasons, which is why I distance myself. Who knows, maybe I'm mistyped.
    You can't really assume that everyone who types as enneagram 4 does so for superficial resions. There are plenty of people with deep understanding of the enneagram who really are 4s in their core.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Inis Mona View Post
    You can't really assume that everyone who types as enneagram 4 does so for superficial resions. There are plenty of people with deep understanding of the enneagram who really are 4s in their core.
    I didn't assume that (re: everyone), nor did I implied it. Didn't mean to give that impression...
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    Here are a few key differences:

    4 is very dark and kinda gloomy and cynical. The 4 thinks that the only way they can fix their self is through individualistic art or thought. That is why 4w5s love to make intricate, highminded, intellectual art projects and/or theoretical ideas (e.g. Jonny Greenwood, Albert Einstein, Quentin Tarantino) and 4w3s like to show their cynical yet brilliant ideas to the world using a thin veil of the 3's confidence (e.g. George Carlin, Lana Del Rey, Prince). If they do not feel authentic to THEMSELVES, they will quickly become depressed and feel like they have no purpose.

    The 3 always has a purpose. 3s want to be loved by other people, and they want to be heard, but they don't care of the authenticity or even validity, of the message. 3w2s are goofy and obsessed with romance, but they can be tough when threatened. They literally don't care a lick for substance. (e.g. Madonna, Taylor Swift, Oprah, Bill Clinton) The 3w4 has a dark side, and wants something more than a basic love. They are the type of person who always wears a suit and tie because they are scared of being vulnerable. They are often very talented, and aspire to greatness. They feel judged by others, and often become hostile to others based on the rivalry they always feel. (e.g. Kevin Spacey, Sting, Johnny Marr, Barney Stinson, [Although not a real person, he is a perfect example, besides, his actor, Neil Patrick Harris, is also a 3w4], John Mayer)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piercie View Post
    Here are a few key differences:

    4 is very dark and kinda gloomy and cynical. The 4 thinks that the only way they can fix their self is through individualistic art or thought. That is why 4w5s love to make intricate, highminded, intellectual art projects and/or theoretical ideas (e.g. Jonny Greenwood, Albert Einstein, Quentin Tarantino) and 4w3s like to show their cynical yet brilliant ideas to the world using a thin veil of the 3's confidence (e.g. George Carlin, Lana Del Rey, Prince). If they do not feel authentic to THEMSELVES, they will quickly become depressed and feel like they have no purpose.

    The 3 always has a purpose. 3s want to be loved by other people, and they want to be heard, but they don't care of the authenticity or even validity, of the message. 3w2s are goofy and obsessed with romance, but they can be tough when threatened. They literally don't care a lick for substance. (e.g. Madonna, Taylor Swift, Oprah, Bill Clinton) The 3w4 has a dark side, and wants something more than a basic love. They are the type of person who always wears a suit and tie because they are scared of being vulnerable. They are often very talented, and aspire to greatness. They feel judged by others, and often become hostile to others based on the rivalry they always feel. (e.g. Kevin Spacey, Sting, Johnny Marr, Barney Stinson, [Although not a real person, he is a perfect example, besides, his actor, Neil Patrick Harris, is also a 3w4], John Mayer)
    Mmm...I think 4w3 is Lana Del Reys heart fix, but I'm convinced she's a 9w1. A lot of her music revolves around wanting to die or disappear because of personal loss, the elevation of Holy Love, being very unashamed to admit her sense of merging with the other, she comes across to fans and the general public as almost like "kick me" to the sort of person who would, to just being the most sweet generous open person to fans, that fans have actually invaded her home repeatedly. I do see the four there, though, doing things like crying at concerts saying she's overwhelmed that people love her more than she loves herself, but I don't ever see that loving herself would ever be enough. ..while Prince clearly loves himself more than anyone else ever could.

    She fits the description of a 9 perfectly, and her perfectionist streak in the studio could likely be a 1 wing. 9s tend to have these sort of blurry boundaries with other people they love or are surrounded by, and can defer to a whole lot to keep the peace. She seems to not ever want to start a fight in an interview, once she said she would react to a personal criticism by not saying anything at all, she said this plainly in an early interview. Please remember 9s are also creative and will build an insular dream world around themselves to protect themselves from having to deal with reality.

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    Envy is one of the core traits of type 4. 4s often yearn for what they have; both in the sense of romantic longing and also in the sense of wanting some kind of trait or ability that they don't have.

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