[Traditional Enneagram] Help please!

[Alicewithptsd]

Please help me figure out my type. I've read so much on the enneagram, online and a few books, and I'm still confused. I'm in therapy, and my therapist uses the enneagram, and pretty much from the get go marked me as a type one because of my perfectionistic, organized tendencies and my ability to repress my emotions, especially anger. She may be right, but I have a hard time accepting it, because there are many things that don't feel like they fit. The strong sense of justice, the need to have a cause...those just aren't me. I have a sense of things being right and wrong, of course, but I don't have this reformer sense in my being. I don't want to change the world. The shrink thinks I am a "body" type, but am confused and beleive I am a "head" type because I have been so disconnected from my body for most of my life. The thing is, I could see myself as a 5, being more of a head type, needing knowledge. I research everything. I crave knowledge, I loved school for that very reason. I could be a 6 because I live in a state of anxiety and confusion, needing others to validate me or tell me what to do before I can make s choice. I could be a 2 because all I want to do is take care of my family,be a mom and wife and make everyone happy. My biggest fear is not being good enough to be loved. I get resentful sometimes becasue my family doesn't give me the same courtseies I give them. I'm not overly outgoing, I like quiet and I would say I am more introverted by nature. I can act perfectly appropriate in social situations, and can speak with and interact with people I don't know, and a lot of people who know me socially would probably describe me as outgoing.

I feel pretty positive that I'm not a 4, 8, 9, 3 or 7. I could be wrong, but those are the types I ruled out pretty quick. So, it's 1, 2, 5, or 6 that I'm trying to decide between. The shrink did discuss, briefly, that I could be a 1w2 or 2w1, and just have a very heavy wing. I don't know.

I don't know of any of that helps, but I'm really starting to feel stressed by not knowing. I have pages and pages written comparing me to the types I'm confused about. I feel like being a one, the perfectionist is more my outside shell, the appearance I had to show others, especially growing up with my parents. I told the shrink I wasn't sold on being a type one and that I didn't want to discuss it, and she has mostly left it alone. Every once in a while, she will refer to my type, and I know she is thinking of me as this person with this sense of justice, and needing a cause, and not liking anger, and whatever else....some of it right and some of it wrong, and I just feel boxed in. I don't know.

I know this is long and no one here knows me, and that you have no reason to help, but I hope that you will. I need to figure this out and feel sure in my answer.

If you made it this far, thank you for reading.

~Alice

 

[fetus]

Just curious--what's your MBTI? I'm interested in correlations; it might help out a little.

 

[Alicewithptsd]

I don't know what that is. I'm sorry, I haven't really done a lot of personality tests. I wouldn't even be so much into figuring out the enneagram results if my therapist didn't use it. If you direct me to a test for the MBTI, I will take it. Anything to help figure this out!

 

[Alicewithptsd]

Okay, I looked it up and took one test. It said ISTJ. Does that help?

 

[Kensei]

I think your problem is that you are giving yourself one type instead of a tritype. Ennegrams don't work by giving someone just one type like mbti does, if everyone was divided into 8 categories, there wouldn't be much variation. How you figure out your initial type is that you obviously start with your base type, which is your number one type. I think that your counselor has a point in typing you 1 because she is a certified professional and they are more accurate than the online tests. Secondly, you need to find your wing, which involves a type right next to your base type on the ennegram symbol. Possible 1 types are 1w9 and 1w2. Secondly, you find your sencondary type which is 5 according to what you say. I'd probably give that a 6 wing since there's no way that you are 4. Then comes your tertiary type. You figure out the type you relate to third most and then figure out the wing for that type. It should look something like this 1w(2or9)-5w6-(x)w(x)
My enneagram tritype is in my signature if that gives you a better guide.

 

[small.wonder]

[MENTION=24826]Alicewithptsd[/MENTION] Ha, is it bad that this makes me curious about your therapist's type?

I think your thought process is good, and one should always do the reading to double check the type they test as (or that their therapist says they are). I'm favoring 6w5 for you so far, based mostly on the anxious feel of your OP and your general doubt/overthinking of the Enneagram.

Here are some important chunks of the Enneagram Institute's Misidentifications write up on the differences between 1 and 6:

Ones are compliant to the demands of their superegos and their ideals, while Sixes are compliant to the demands of their superegos and other people, especially perceived allies or authority figures.

These two types are easy to distinguish, however, by noting the overall emotional tone of each type. Average Sixes are anxious, indecisive, ambivalent, and, above all, reactive. They find it difficult to relate to others with self-confidence as equals, tending either to become too dutiful and dependent or to go to the opposite extreme and become rebellious and defiant. Sometimes they get stuck in the middle and become ambivalent, indecisive, and vacillating.

These traits are almost completely absent in average Ones. Their overall emotional tone is one of self-controlled, impersonal efficiency, orderliness and propriety. Ones are emphatically not indecisive: they know their own minds and have opinions about everything, which they are more than willing to express to others. Ones are certain, and trying to convince others that they know the optimal way to do things. Sixes are uncertain, and rely on reassurance, back-up, familiar procedure, or the sanction of previously tested ideas and philosophies to help them come to decisions.

Righteous anger, irritation, and moral indignation are the principal negative emotions in Ones, whereas fearfulness, suspicion, and anxiety are the principal negative feelings in Sixes.

What it really comes down to between 1 and 6 is fear and motivation. 1 is afraid being imperfect, corrupt or evil (thus their overzealous striving towards perfection). 6 on the other hand is motivated by security (and the fear of losing or being without it), which is why they tend to have strong loyalties to those they deem "safe" and skepticism towards those they are unsure of.

I hope that helps, I'm happy to chime in more if you have questions or want to expand more about yourself.

 

[Alicewithptsd]

Kensei, Thank you! I didn't know anout tritypes, so this gives me a whole new thing to,go read about and look into, lol.

 

[Alicewithptsd]

My therapist is a 2, with a 1 wing. The funny thjng is, she brought up enneagram as a break from the more "heavy" therapy stuff we were working on, not expecting I would become all obsessed and upset by it. I think it gets hard to type me because of my PTSD-- which makes me anxious and hypervigilant, ext. There doesn't seem to be much written about how trauma/PTSD effects what type you are. Since the consensus seems to be that you are born with your type or it is formed in very early childhood, I'm assuming is doesn't change or form your type; it simply determines how you react to trauma. I don't know. Anyway. The anxious, control freak, inability to trust, ext parts of my personality could be more trauma related than type related. It starts to get really confusing to me.

And, even though the shrink is awesome, and it would be fine, I hate conflict, am afraid of even minor disagreements so I don't really want to bring it back up to her again and talk about my uncertainty that I'm a type 1w2 (which was her assessment, and what one test I took said). I've had tests say I was a 9, a 5, a 2, and a 1. 6 usually seems to come in second or 3rd. It seems like 1, 2 and 6 all are always very close together, like within a point or 2.

I've spent some time reading posts and info here, found some more books on kindle, re-read some stuff I'd read before...and added to the information you gave me, I'm leaning towards a 6. But...I'm still not sure. Lol. Is it possible to reallh "appear" as a 1 because that is what was expected of you? Like, for instance, in my family perfection was the standard, the expectation. So I am very, very, good at perfection. Which makes me seem very "one". But, the perfection is more about having to be good enough so people I care about don't leave me/get mad at me/stop loving me, ext. I hold a lot in, and would never show the doubt, worry, whatever to the world, even people I'm close to because that wouldn't be "perfect."

"Average Sixes are anxious, indecisive, ambivalent, and, above all, reactive. They find it difficult to relate to others with self-confidence as equals, tending either to become too dutiful and dependent or to go to the opposite extreme and become rebellious and defiant. Sometimes they get stuck in the middle and become ambivalent, indecisive, and vacillating."

What does reactive mean? I feel very dumb for asking this, and like everyone is going to judge me, but I guess I want to know reactive how? The description of how a 6 relates to others, especially the part about not relating to others as equals, that feels like me. I never feel equal to anyone, I always feel less than (which I think is also kimd of oneish??). The back and forth of dependent and defiant also sounds like me, but that is something that happens internally, that I take great care to hide.

The whole "constant chatter of the inner critic" that is a one trait is very identifiable to me. I beat myself up all day, everyday. But again, that could be more family of orgin related. I don't know! I'm terrified of rejection. I just want people to be happy, to be okay.

The shrink says I'm an unusual parent in that I can actually relax, let my gaurd down and truly have fun, be silly and play with my 4 year old on her level. I can truly see things from a kid view point, and play like I "get it". She told me if she had only known me in the capacity as a mom, she would have pegged me as 7. Which is really funny, and we had a good laugh about that, because I'm so not a 7. My kid just brings out this child side of me.

I'm not good with emotions, they scare me, but the negative ones, and anger are the worst. I spent a year in therapy telling the shrink I was not angry at anyone or about anything, and I believed it, too. Then...well, anger started leaking out, in the form of little blowouts over the most ridcoilous things. Someone cutting me off on the road, my husband not thawing out chicken for dinner, my daughter nor picking up toys when asked, ext. So, yeah. The angry part fits with 1, I guess, but it also fits with PTSD. See what I mean about this being so very hard to figure out? Or maybe I am just over thinking it?

I'm sorry, this is getting long. I'm trying so hard to give an accurate "snap shot" of myself, and I really appreciate everyone who has replied and offered advice and help. If there is anything specfic I can answer that would help decided my type, let me know. Thank you!

 

[JayJayBananas]

5 w/ 6, and as for your MBTI, you are probably an ISTJ, but the turbulent variant.

 

[small.wonder]

My therapist is a 2, with a 1 wing. The funny thjng is, she brought up enneagram as a break from the more "heavy" therapy stuff we were working on, not expecting I would become all obsessed and upset by it. I think it gets hard to type me because of my PTSD-- which makes me anxious and hypervigilant, ext. There doesn't seem to be much written about how trauma/PTSD effects what type you are. Since the consensus seems to be that you are born with your type or it is formed in very early childhood, I'm assuming is doesn't change or form your type; it simply determines how you react to trauma. I don't know. Anyway. The anxious, control freak, inability to trust, ext parts of my personality could be more trauma related than type related. It starts to get really confusing to me.

Eeep, I would hate having a 2 therapist. I know a couple people with PTSD, and the way it manifests in them isn't exactly the same. Even with a disorder, I think our personalities still apply.

And, even though the shrink is awesome, and it would be fine, I hate conflict, am afraid of even minor disagreements so I don't really want to bring it back up to her again and talk about my uncertainty that I'm a type 1w2 (which was her assessment, and what one test I took said). I've had tests say I was a 9, a 5, a 2, and a 1. 6 usually seems to come in second or 3rd. It seems like 1, 2 and 6 all are always very close together, like within a point or 2.

It's definitely worth investigating then, even if for your own self knowledge (especially if your scores are that close).

I've spent some time reading posts and info here, found some more books on kindle, re-read some stuff I'd read before...and added to the information you gave me, I'm leaning towards a 6. But...I'm still not sure. Lol. Is it possible to reallh "appear" as a 1 because that is what was expected of you? Like, for instance, in my family perfection was the standard, the expectation. So I am very, very, good at perfection. Which makes me seem very "one". But, the perfection is more about having to be good enough so people I care about don't leave me/get mad at me/stop loving me, ext. I hold a lot in, and would never show the doubt, worry, whatever to the world, even people I'm close to because that wouldn't be "perfect."

Yes. I think this is true espescially for 6's because they desire to be loyal, which could include having values that match their family/friends, etc. 1's on the other hand, seek perfection because they see the world as sadly broken and wrong, and that they need to save/perfect/reform it. Do you relate more to the emotion anger, or fear?

"Average Sixes are anxious, indecisive, ambivalent, and, above all, reactive. They find it difficult to relate to others with self-confidence as equals, tending either to become too dutiful and dependent or to go to the opposite extreme and become rebellious and defiant. Sometimes they get stuck in the middle and become ambivalent, indecisive, and vacillating."

What does reactive mean? I feel very dumb for asking this, and like everyone is going to judge me, but I guess I want to know reactive how? The description of how a 6 relates to others, especially the part about not relating to others as equals, that feels like me. I never feel equal to anyone, I always feel less than (which I think is also kimd of oneish??). The back and forth of dependent and defiant also sounds like me, but that is something that happens internally, that I take great care to hide.

Reactive means reacting quickly/abruptly to stimuli. I like to put in terms of "fight or flight" for 6's, but that they do one or the other without notice in reaction to fear. Reactivity is not gradual, but immediate and usually without thinking.

Feeling less than others is actually not a 1 thing really, because 1's tend to assume that they are right, that their view of perfection (and the way things should be) is correct. 6 on the other hand does feel less than in some situations because their loyalties are to others, not to themselves-- this often means that they do not have a strong sense of individual confidence at average health levels (because their confidence usually comes from whomever, whatever it is they are loyal to). This could look like the girl who's confidence comes from her high school friend group, or the Marine who is confident because of his title as a Marine and the unit he belongs to. In whatever situation, 6's move towards things, people, places that can offer them security and confidence.

Yeah, that back and forth thing is a huge 6 trait! It's like "maybe this, or no, this is better. But then there's that..." inner dialogue, which often translates to that outer skepticism and uncertainty.

The whole "constant chatter of the inner critic" that is a one trait is very identifiable to me. I beat myself up all day, everyday. But again, that could be more family of orgin related. I don't know! I'm terrified of rejection. I just want people to be happy, to be okay.

Hmm, that last sentence sounds almost 9 (which something you said above made me think too)-- they avoid conflict or negative things because they fear separation from their loved ones. 9's do this is a very different way than 6's do though, they lay low so to speak, are more silently stubborn, and unaware of their own emotions and thoughts. 6's on the other hand are more reactive (as we said), and less laid back because of their need to "be responsible" and to plan (6's are huge planners to try to avoid future mishap).

The shrink says I'm an unusual parent in that I can actually relax, let my gaurd down and truly have fun, be silly and play with my 4 year old on her level. I can truly see things from a kid view point, and play like I "get it". She told me if she had only known me in the capacity as a mom, she would have pegged me as 7. Which is really funny, and we had a good laugh about that, because I'm so not a 7. My kid just brings out this child side of me.

That's awesome!

I'm not good with emotions, they scare me, but the negative ones, and anger are the worst. I spent a year in therapy telling the shrink I was not angry at anyone or about anything, and I believed it, too. Then...well, anger started leaking out, in the form of little blowouts over the most ridcoilous things. Someone cutting me off on the road, my husband not thawing out chicken for dinner, my daughter nor picking up toys when asked, ext. So, yeah. The angry part fits with 1, I guess, but it also fits with PTSD. See what I mean about this being so very hard to figure out? Or maybe I am just over thinking it?

Well, let's remember that all humans have anger. 8, 9 and 1 are the types with specific anger issues, but even they have different motivations for becoming angry. You aren't an 8, so lets write that off and look at 1, 6 and 9 for anger. 1's get angry (and usually suppress it) because of all the imperfection, strife and disorder in the world. 6's can become angry (in a reactive way, as we discussed) when they feel their security is being threatened, or when they are skeptical of someone. 9's have strong undercurrents of anger, but are usually pretty unaware of it-- theirs manifests more in a passive aggressive, and or stubborn way because their ultimate objective is to not rock the boat.

Hope that helps!

 

[Entropic]

[MENTION=24826]Alicewithptsd[/MENTION] skimming through but I wanted to address your question about what reactivity is and you say you feel dumb for asking, but it's a very good question and touches on one of biggest problems in the enneagram which is that it often uses a lot of big but empty words that don't mean anything unless you know what they are actually referring to. Reactivity in the enneagram refers to emotional reactivity or realness, which is a desire to have your emotions mirrored in the other person to see how they are reacting to you and thus in a sense, truly know what they think or feel. This is of course not something you can understand by just reading the word in question.

Examples of reactive behavior can be how 8s try to challenge people to take a stand by offering two alternatives and forcing people to only pick one and will judge how people react to being forced what to pick in order to figure out what they really think about something, or how 6s will seek reassurance in another by projecting their fears on that person eg I know you will leave me because everyone always ultimately leave me and I will always be alone in order to know whether you will in fact actually leave, or how 4s will say I'm so different from you, you will never understand in order to hash out whether the person will admit that they can understand or not etc. Only 468 are reactive.

 

[Alicewithptsd]

I know a couple people with PTSD, and the way it manifests in them isn't exactly the same. Even with a disorder, I think our personalities still apply.

Okay, that's what I was thinking.

Yes. I think this is true espescially for 6's because they desire to be loyal, which could include having values that match their family/friends, etc. 1's on the other hand, seek perfection because they see the world as sadly broken and wrong, and that they need to save/perfect/reform it. Do you relate more to the emotion anger, or fear?

It's definitely fear. I don't really think of the world as broken. I don't know. I think there is a lot of things that aren't good in the world and need to be fixed, of course. But I'm more optimistic than thinking the world is sadly broken and wrong. I think, and really need to beleive the world is basically good and okay. What you said about being loyal which would include having values match family/friends values. That rings true.

Reactive means reacting quickly/abruptly to stimuli. I like to put in terms of "fight or flight" for 6's, but that they do one or the other without notice in reaction to fear. Reactivity is not gradual, but immediate and usually without thinking.

I don't know. I think I am reactive in some ways, but I also tend to think and think and think things through. It seems like there is no happy medium for me, that it's just one or the other.

this often means that they do not have a strong sense of individual confidence at average health levels (because their confidence usually comes from whomever, whatever it is they are loyal to).

Hmmmm. Okay. This would be like I have confidence in things that my husband and I are joined together on, or whatever. That makes sense. I think this is true of me.

Yeah, that back and forth thing is a huge 6 trait! It's like "maybe this, or no, this is better. But then there's that..." inner dialogue, which often translates to that outer skepticism and uncertainty.

Yes. Exactly!

6's on the other hand are more reactive (as we said), and less laid back because of their need to "be responsible" and to plan (6's are huge planners to try to avoid future mishap).

I am a huge planner. My parents hired a wedding planner for my wedding, and she honestly said she didn't know why she was even there-- and ended up taking tips from me for planning, lol. I'm definitely not laid back. No one would ever accuse me of being laid back.

1's get angry (and usually suppress it) because of all the imperfection, strife and disorder in the world. 6's can become angry (in a reactive way, as we discussed) when they feel their security is being threatened, or when they are skeptical of someone. 9's have strong undercurrents of anger, but are usually pretty unaware of it-- theirs manifests more in a passive aggressive, and or stubborn way because their ultimate objective is to not rock the boat.

I react in anger, or suppress it. I suppress it becasue I have this belief that if I angry at people I care about, they will get mad back at me and leave me. The thing that triggers my anger the most is having my feelings hurt, and not being listened to. I'm not passive aggressive, that much I know. I'm actually pretty positive my husband is a 9. I don't like to rock the boat, or cause conflict, but it's more about being afraid that if I rock the boat, I'm going to lose the people I caused the conflict with. I don't know. Conflict feels very unsafe to me. I think the thing of just wanting people to be okay, to be happy is like this....if people are okay and happy, then that means I am okay. Like, if people important in my life aren't okay, then things feel scary and uncertain to me. I don't know if that was explained very well.

Thank you for replying back. I'm really leaning towards 6. How do you decide for sure? I mean, what makes someone know for positive which type is theirs? It's hard for me not to go back and forth, and second guess.

 

[Alicewithptsd]

[MENTION=24826]Alicewithptsd[/MENTION] the enneagram refers to emotional reactivity or realness, which is a desire to have your emotions mirrored in the other person to see how they are reacting to you and thus in a sense, truly know what they think or feel.

Examples of reactive behavior can be how 8s try to challenge people to take a stand by offering two alternatives and forcing people to only pick one and will judge how people react to being forced what to pick in order to figure out what they really think about something, or how 6s will seek reassurance in another by projecting their fears on that person eg I know you will leave me because everyone always ultimately leave me and I will always be alone in order to know whether you will in fact actually leave, or how 4s will say I'm so different from you, you will never understand in order to hash out whether the person will admit that they can understand or not etc. Only 468 are reactive.

Okay. Thank you for saying this wasn't dumb to ask. 😊

So...I do constantly ask/need reassurance that my husband isn't going to leave or isn't angry at me (two big fears. Having someone mad at me, and being left.)

Thank you for answering this.

 

[Entropic]

Okay. Thank you for saying this wasn't dumb to ask. ������

So...I do constantly ask/need reassurance that my husband isn't going to leave or isn't angry at me (two big fears. Having someone mad at me, and being left.)

Thank you for answering this.

Sounds like 6 concerns, definitely. 6s have a fundamental fear of being truly abandoned and alone and will constantly try to reassess that people they care about aren't going to abandon them. Whether this makes you a 6 is a different matter, though. Ultimately it's about what underlies your behavior, what motivates you. 6s seek security because they are fundamentally insecure in that especially the good will ever last. They become very focused on thinking about how things will end and will prepare for the worst.

I also want to add that 6s lack a sense of solid sense of being grounded in themselves. They feel transparent or strangely light, as if any great storm is going to whisk them away from the ground. They fear this being whisked away because they always think that they will never overcome whatever hurdles that stand in their way. They lack a sense of strength, never feeling strong enough. The dangers are too great, the risks too many, the price too steep and they are the ones that are going to pay for it all. This is why the vice or passion of 6 is fear or cowardice because 6s easily succumb to their own fears of what may happen and literally give up before they even try because they always inherently assume the worst so all they can do is prepare for it and hope they survive. In contrast, their virtue is courage or strength, which is when they gather enough willpower to overcome in spite of their fear.

 

[Alicewithptsd]

6s seek security because they are fundamentally insecure in that especially the good will ever last. They become very focused on thinking about how things will end and will prepare for the worst.

So, I do always expect and fear the worst. I don't know if I prepare for it. I guess if imagining the possible scenerios, figuring how to react in the worst situation, what I woild do, then yeah.

6s lack a sense of solid sense of being grounded in themselves.

I read this...and it seem complicated to me. Becasue of my PTSD, I dissociate, and the very nature of dissociation is to feel this way. So I have no way to know if this is personality or PTSD. The idea of never feeling strong enough (more emotionally, but I suppose physically, too) rings true for me.

I was thinking about the reactive thing some more. If I'm feeling what the shrink would call a "big feeling", so feeling it strongly, like angry or sad, or even happy, I feel better when the person I'm with feels that way too. So if I'm really sad and upset about something, and my husband (who I'm pretty sure is a 9) tries to distract me, calm me down, says that it's not so bad, focus on the good stuff, ext, I only get more and more upset. But, in contrast, I have a good friend who is excellent at mirroring my feelings back to me. If I'm around her, and I'm very angry, she will show anger, too, and it's like this magic that just dissipates all those big feelings. Is that how being reactive works? Or have I misunderstood?

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, and try to help me figure this out. It's driving me crazy not to have a solid answer.

 

[Haven]

2w1 sounds good to me, repression is in the cards for us 2s.

Your fears seem too specific to be a 6, they have free floating anxieties and seek a source a certainty. Your fears seem to center around rejection.

 

[Alicewithptsd]

2w1 sounds good to me, repression is in the cards for us 2s.

Your fears seem too specific to be a 6, they have free floating anxieties and seek a source a certainty. Your fears seem to center around rejection.

Hmmmm. Early on, I wondered if I could be a "2" because I naturally and easily fall into the caretaker role in groups, and I'm afraid of not being good enought to be loved. My biggest fear is losing the love of the people I care about, being left. I need to go back and read about 2's. I forgot why I ruled 2 out, now. I feel like there were some significant things that didn't seem to fit. Anyways, thank you for your suggestion.