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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    I weigh most every word in my head before I speak it I try very hard to gather all of the facts, to be objective, to see different angles. Sometimes, my tongue can be pretty sharp.
    That's the thing. It's similar for me in that I rarely, if ever say something intentionally mean or spiteful, but when I am mad at someone, I can bring up a list of factual information which can still be quite damaging. I don't like hypocrisy and will call people on saying one thing and doing the opposite in a heartbeat.

    "seeing red" is an apt description of what happens to 9s when they become angry, I think.
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    At heart, I’ll always be a bleeding heart liberal.
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  2. #12
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    I guess what I wonder most is why the 9's don't verbalize all these insights they have prior to a confrentation? Why does it come down to a confrontation and having to suppress them? I get the impact it may/may not have on someone they care about but the level the 9's suppress, that in itself is scary. Much more than what I'd fear in an altercation. With an 8, you know what you're getting. 9's, no.
    It takes awareness first of all, this is not a given for 9s when our automatic reaction to stress is to numb and withdraw, awareness of being an Enneagram 9 can be a short cut here. Then, and this is the harder thing, it takes a desire to change negative behaviours despite the discomfort.

    It's a process involving multiple elements, a run down from my personal perspective:
    - Anger/conflict are threatening as in the moment they feel as though they will lead to separation and rejection of me as an individual
    - The giving up of my own needs when I do is about a passive form of compromise and there is a desire for the same treatment in return, of course if you don't verbalise that then no one can be expected to guess so it doesn't happen that way
    - Which leads to teeth-grinding resentment when my needs are dismissed or I feel walked over... the natural scenario I set up by allowing it in the first place
    - The automatic focus for me is on other people, one of the skills 9s have is to view all other stances with a focus on what that means for the other person, so when we are dismissed and feel angry about it we can also see their point of view and excuse poor treatment because we understand, boundaries aren't easy
    - Add to that, disagreeing with someone on something they care about has a greater potential to lead to conflict in and of itself, so the easy path is to just let things go, naturally this resolves nothing and the anger at being dismissed is still there just being ignored/numbed
    - As things progress the anger builds, each time being pushed aside as not worth fighting against until it is too powerful to express calmly so the 9 shuts down and withdraws
    - Then something happens in the moment that annoys us and rawr! all that built up rage is focused on the idiot who made us a cappuccino instead of the flat white we asked for and how you now want the entire world to burn because the actual cause of our anger has never been addressed
    - Most 9w8 rage, even when overwhelming, is kept to private moments as the 9 desire to not bother other people by expressing our w8 rage is always there

    Viewing the progression is easy to see what the solution is; a disagreement should be expressed calmly and urgently.

    So the question of why don't all 9s take that path? Imo, it's about fear.

    The base fear of 9s, of separation which conflict threatens to provide. Or the self-view regarding Holy Love, that all others things are inherently lovable save ourselves, that we are forgettable, dismissible, unlovable, so feel the need to present in a way others will accept.

    Fighting against that is a journey to a healthier level. The same as any other type fighting against their core fears or message of deficiency. How a 9 deals with conflict shows both their self-awareness and their health level imo.

  3. #13
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Arguments and volitile emotions make me physically sick, like an acute stomach virus, and if my attempts at reasoning or calming are ignored, I'll likely walk away, not because I'm afraid, but because I don't want to say or do something I'll later regret in my efforts to re-establish order. I think for safety's sake, never follow a 9 when they walk out. It is for the protection of others that they do it.
    That 8 wing is a powerful tool in this regard, it needs to be harnessed so you can assert your own boundaries.

    Don't claim that's easy. But it does feel so damn empowering.

    I love my wing 8, it's fire and passion and so many things my core 9 are not, I like the rage as it shows me what matters, what I should never tolerate, and when combined with the core 9 it can result in someone with strong boundaries who is still peaceful, easy going and likable. It's being awake.


    I think also the hardest thing about an eight wing is that a sudden burst of rage comes from seemingly nowhere at all and forcefully demands it to cease and desist.
    It may seem to come from nowhere to others, however for us, there is a base, it took me time and concentration to notice all personal the signs of annoyance as they happened and work out what my triggers are, what it means if I'm driving and every other person on the road is making my mental "must die" list and then to work out what the cause of the anger actually is. Once you know what the cause of the anger is, you can deal with it, until then it is a time bomb.

  4. #14
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    This is really interesting to hear about, and I wonder how exclusively w8 it is. My dad and my son are both 9 (probably 9w1), and I've never seen anything like this. I can't even imagine either of them lashing out. When they get pushed, they'll get passive-aggressive and dig in their heels about not doing things- they stay way on the 'passive' end of that spectrum, and merely accumulate more and more things to refuse to do (lol)- that's the only way to know they're angry at someone, ever. People who don't pick up on that get avoided like the plague, and I'd thought it was because the kind of outbursts you describe are so completely overwhelming and horrible to them that they'll do anything to avoid it.

    My sister though- 9w8- I wish she had direct outbursts like what you describe. I do see something like sudden bursts of rage come out of her, but it's more in the form of passive-aggressive mind games. It's not intentional, but it's like she needs to stifle reality about certain things- in herself and others- and she says whatever it takes to kinda bully people into at least acting like they are going along with it. It's something clearly more on the aggressive end of the passive-aggressive spectrum than I see in my son or my dad- and I presume it's the w8. I think what you describe in the op is actually a much healthier kind of outburst. (And anyway, I'm just wondering if any kind of 'outburst' is a w8 thing- because it seems like my other 9s are so absolutely afraid of anything that might ultimately push them to have an outburst that they avoid it.)
    9w1 anger is internal and critical

    9w8 anger is external and rage

    Doesn't mean you will ever see either in a direct manner, as you state the passive-aggressive response is the anger and that is often the most visible form of 9 anger regardless of wing, they are very different internally from w1 to w8 though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Imo anger and focus is a great way to figure out your wing if you know you're a 9 but aren't sure if you relate more to 1 or 8.

    If as a 9 you do something minor that annoys others, such as arriving late, is your reaction to kick yourself and apologise while using language that shows you blame yourself "I'm sorry, I'm such an idiot!", or is the reaction to feel annoyed and apologise while explaining what external factors 'caused' you to be late "I'm sorry, the traffic was stupid!". Simplistic but paints the picture.

    1s are critical of others in a way that is typically noticed, and that critical view is even harder on themselves, so the automatic focus is internal and shows pretty obviously in the 9w1 acknowledgement of how they screwed up, while 8s are protective, there's a strong desire not to be vulnerable, and so long as it isn't a personal flaw then no one can use it against you, plus they are an expansive externally focused type anyway. There are many reasons why I, as a 9w8 seek to take responsibility in a way that isn't a personal flaw but a result of poor circumstance, vulnerability and external focus are the two core aspects. Anger is on top of that, however it moves in the same direction, for 9w1s it's inward and judgy, for 9w8s it's outward and rawr!

    I'm a visual person, the best way I can explain the feel of 9w1 v 9w8 anger is via gifs.

    Internally the 9w1 is judgy-bitchy (provided by 9w1s based on their own experience)





    Internally the 9w8 is rage







    And yet externally, we both still look unaffected like this:

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  5. #15
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    I understand all this, my husband is a 9, probably w8 and I think he may have had these outbursts when he was younger. On the flip side, that means he doesn't do the passive-aggressive thing (we would have BIG problems if he did).

    I guess what I wonder most is why the 9's don't verbalize all these insights they have prior to a confrentation? Why does it come down to a confrontation and having to suppress them? I get the impact it may/may not have on someone they care about but the level the 9's suppress, that in itself is scary. Much more than what I'd fear in an altercation. With an 8, you know what you're getting. 9's, no.

    For my husband, it seems to be the actual yelling, not what is being yelled, that bothers him most. He's never accused of being wishy-washy or not having a backbone but confrontation really does something bad to him, when it's over. It takes him a fair amount of time for him to get back to normal (maybe because he outgrew those outbursts). Many times I think - I'll handle this, confrontation doesn't do anything negative to me (obviously) but I can't always do that and I don't want to emasculate him either. I just want him to know that some confrontation is ok. If he yelled, I would be surprised to hear the yelling but then I would go - yeaaaah....let it out!

    I think @Kasper had some insightful answers.

    I'd also like to add that I think part of it is that the notion of a deep riff between people over something trivial and temporary doesn't usually seem worth the risk, but when someone crosses a value line that could have far reaching consequences, then the beast is unleashed. For example, if I hear someone berating a child, saying hurtful things that will follow him or her for life, I can be confrontational and suddenly everyone is shocked.

    I also don't like the yelling, and even more, I don't like bickering.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  6. #16
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    That 8 wing is a powerful tool in this regard, it needs to be harnessed so you can assert your own boundaries.

    Don't claim that's easy. But it does feel so damn empowering.

    I love my wing 8, it's fire and passion and so many things my core 9 are not, I like the rage as it shows me what matters, what I should never tolerate, and when combined with the core 9 it can result in someone with strong boundaries who is still peaceful, easy going and likable. It's being awake.




    It may seem to come from nowhere to others, however for us, there is a base, it took me time and concentration to notice all personal the signs of annoyance as they happened and work out what my triggers are, what it means if I'm driving and every other person on the road is making my mental "must die" list and then to work out what the cause of the anger actually is. Once you know what the cause of the anger is, you can deal with it, until then it is a time bomb.

    Good points...most of the time I do like that wing 8. I have a lot of gumption because if it. I get stuff done and as you say, it does allow for boundaries while being peaceful and easy-going. I'm in no way wishy-washy or easy to push around, but I am gentle in my demeanor, and this causes people to create a false picture. I'm not shy nor timid, just reserved and analytical. I think a lot of people confuse my "Thinking Time" for timidity and that's not the case.

    @riva

    You haven't completely settled on 9 then?
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14
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  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deceptive View Post
    As for not having a backbone, when I was younger I was repeatedly told that I didn't have a backbone as I grew older people starting making comments that they didn't get much of a personality from me. One such incident, a friend of mine made a racist comment, I hadn't realised that her ignorant comments had angered me over the course of our friendship so I snapped at her then. Another friend was listening to us and it seemed amuse him that I was angry (as if I couldn't get angry) so I turned around and snapped it him, too. I surprised myself and everyone around me.
    hehe, my wife says I have two settings: spineless and CRAZY.
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    At heart, I’ll always be a bleeding heart liberal.

  8. #18
    Glamour puss with a tan Raffaella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starcrash View Post
    hehe, my wife says I have two settings: spineless and CRAZY.
    Yeah, there's no balance - it's all or nothing. Like a landmine!

    This actually this brings me back to the appropriate gifs Kasper posted. Even though e9s have a kanye-west poker face until they erupt, the eruption is exactly as the gifs posted. As a 9w1 (supposedly) I don't get physical when I erupt, I get snappy. I feel relief when I get the opportunity to say the nasty, bitchy, back-biting comments that I've unknowingly withheld for so long. Once that's over, I can recover properly, I have to be careful because it's easy to hurt people and have to learn to cope through different mechanisms. Judging by this thread, I'd say it's the same for eights (physically, though).

    Somewhat related but I'm amazed a nine created a thread with such a title, everything's fine in the e9 world, there's never a thing to complain of. Problems...? No, my desires are simple... I have no problems...

    Sometimes I feel phoney even discussing problems, in my mind it doesn't matter. Then there are those times were you believe everyone's making a bigger deal of something than they should (both great indicators of disintegration).
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  9. #19
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    I wonder that too
    I suspect it’s not entirely either/or anyway. I don’t know how common this is, but I personally know that I can relate to both wings (5w4 and 5w6)- it’s just that I lean more on 5w4. So I assume that an e9 who is more w1 might also occasionally unleash w8ish dragons occasionally? (That is, if this supposition holds in the first place about outbursts being a w8 thing.)

    That list of things to refuse to do is kind of comical in a way.
    Well it is to me, but then my dad and my son both have a great sense of humor about it. They’re aware of how they’re coming across, they don’t like dealing with it in others and so they usually exaggerate it as a sort of acknowledgment that they’re doing it. They probably don’t know why they’re doing it- so they can’t easily change their reaction, because they don’t know what to put in its place- but they are able to make fun of themselves for it. It’s like they’ve turned indirectly communicating they don’t like something into a comedic art form to stop it from being annoying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    9w1 anger is internal and critical

    9w8 anger is external and rage

    Doesn't mean you will ever see either in a direct manner, as you state the passive-aggressive response is the anger and that is often the most visible form of 9 anger regardless of wing, they are very different internally from w1 to w8 though.
    So this seems to be in agreement with what I was asking about w1 avoiding the outburst. (And I should probably clarify, when I said “absolutely afraid of anything that might eventually lead to an outburst”, they never look afraid of anything. But I do very much get the sense that anything resembling a feeling that might eventually lead to an outburst immediately disappears into a blind spot for them- ultimately that’s because of fear (?), but I don’t think ‘fear’ even shows up on the radar.) The point being only that I can’t even fathom either of them ever having the kind of outburst mentioned in the op (well actually I can’t picture my w8 sister doing that either- she keeps Kanye gif composure physically- but she gets very controlling about dictating a weird reality and the underlying anger is clear to everyone BUT her, and it's a kind of outburst, a menacing one, however indirect). At most, my son or dad will shoot someone a ‘what in the mighty hell is wrong with you’ look before completely withdrawing (and thencefore ignoring).
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari
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  10. #20
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    It takes awareness first of all, this is not a given for 9s when our automatic reaction to stress is to numb and withdraw, awareness of being an Enneagram 9 can be a short cut here. Then, and this is the harder thing, it takes a desire to change negative behaviours despite the discomfort.

    It's a process involving multiple elements, a run down from my personal perspective:
    - Anger/conflict are threatening as in the moment they feel as though they will lead to separation and rejection of me as an individual
    - The giving up of my own needs when I do is about a passive form of compromise and there is a desire for the same treatment in return, of course if you don't verbalise that then no one can be expected to guess so it doesn't happen that way
    - Which leads to teeth-grinding resentment when my needs are dismissed or I feel walked over... the natural scenario I set up by allowing it in the first place
    - The automatic focus for me is on other people, one of the skills 9s have is to view all other stances with a focus on what that means for the other person, so when we are dismissed and feel angry about it we can also see their point of view and excuse poor treatment because we understand, boundaries aren't easy
    - Add to that, disagreeing with someone on something they care about has a greater potential to lead to conflict in and of itself, so the easy path is to just let things go, naturally this resolves nothing and the anger at being dismissed is still there just being ignored/numbed
    - As things progress the anger builds, each time being pushed aside as not worth fighting against until it is too powerful to express calmly so the 9 shuts down and withdraws
    - Then something happens in the moment that annoys us and rawr! all that built up rage is focused on the idiot who made us a cappuccino instead of the flat white we asked for and how you now want the entire world to burn because the actual cause of our anger has never been addressed
    - Most 9w8 rage, even when overwhelming, is kept to private moments as the 9 desire to not bother other people by expressing our w8 rage is always there

    Viewing the progression is easy to see what the solution is; a disagreement should be expressed calmly and urgently.

    So the question of why don't all 9s take that path? Imo, it's about fear.

    The base fear of 9s, of separation which conflict threatens to provide. Or the self-view regarding Holy Love, that all others things are inherently lovable save ourselves, that we are forgettable, dismissible, unlovable, so feel the need to present in a way others will accept.

    Fighting against that is a journey to a healthier level. The same as any other type fighting against their core fears or message of deficiency. How a 9 deals with conflict shows both their self-awareness and their health level imo.
    You've explained it wonderfully and the gifs are perfect. I've seen that Kanye West face on my husband a million times while I do the Tom Hiddleston gif. The desire not to burden others just makes me sad. I want him to let it out and I've assured him he would be safe with me. Even if it was about me. I'm not saying he never asserts himself - he does and it's really impressive when he does. I only think outbursts that would be otherwise inappropriate, aren't inappropriate with me. If he is unable to do it, I do understand but, my door is open.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.
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