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[Traditional Enneagram] Why I Am No Longer An Enneagrammist

Mal12345

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In the past on this forum I have stated that I am not Jungian, or MBTI, but an enneagramist. That's because I fell in love with the enneagram over 20 years go when it helped me through some rough times, and I loved the theory for itself.

But nowadays, with pages online such as this Enneagram with Type-Color Associations, it just seems really campy to me. The references to Freudian object/relations theory on that page are just plain silly and out of context, an obvious attempt to lend serious credibility to a theory that often lacks credibility.

The only thing I like about the enneagram are the lines of integration and disintegration, but only because I believe these are in some way related to JCF. In other words, the enneagram has credibility only in reference to another theory that has credibility.

Enneagrammists' attempts to relate the enneagram to some ancient teaches is also silly. The whole thing was invented in the 1960s, although it has its roots in G. I. Gurdjieff's teachings. But these teachings themselves don't necessarily lead to an enneagram, as he was apt to teach about either 3 or 4 centers of intelligence.

As a system of personal growth, teaching about enneagram colors, or forcing other typologies to conform to its pattern as Riso did, are either silly or dogmatic and not conducive to personal growth. There are a thousand systems of personal growth out there that are likely to be more effective because the practitioner won't get caught up in any of the same kind of campy silliness that surrounds the enneagram.

As for Riso's type descriptions, they could be brilliant attempts to fuse other theories into a single description for types. For those who don't know, the original enneagram descriptions were brief, one-page essays on types that were distributed from person to person. By all rights, it should have died out as all such fads eventually die out. But in order to build the enneagram into something bigger, it was necessary for Riso to borrow ideas from other typologies, such as the famous personality disorders of the DSM category system. In this way, the enneagram could elevate its credibility. At the same time, in order to avoid the criticism that the enneagram is not a novel discovery, Riso had to separate the enneagram from these systems by dogmatically reducing them to the enneagram.

I like JCF now. The only problem with this is avoiding getting caught up in the Socionics interpretation of it. That however won't be a problem for me.
 

Totenkindly

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My favorite / most useful part of enneagram theory for me was also the directions of integration/disintegration, while your criticisms seem to be along the lines of my own.
 

Bush

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Neat take on the history and borrowings of the Enneagram, lots of stuff that I didn't know. Would be interesting to hear more about how the directions of integration/disintegration, rather than the types themselves, could be connected to JCF.

All of these typologies could have bullshit tacked onto them by other people, though; such as this Enneagram color theory or Socionics's DCNH subtype nonsense. Doesn't change the core ideas for me.

I'm surprised that y'all found the directions of integration/disintegration to be useful. You know more about Enneagram than I do, but they seemed to me to be more of a way to justify the use of the shape. The most useful part of the system to me is the type descriptions themselves.

I also find the connections to DSM, placing them all circular-like, to be intriguing and not so far from the truth. At least they didn't try for a one-to-one correspondence between DSM diagnoses and Enneatypes; that would've been suspicious.
 
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Mal12345

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Neat take on the history and borrowings of the Enneagram, lots of stuff that I didn't know. Would be interesting to hear more about how the directions of integration/disintegration, rather than the types themselves, could be connected to JCF.

I'm surprised that y'all found the directions of integration/disintegration to be useful. You know more about Enneagram than I do, but they seemed to me to be more of a way to justify the use of the shape. The most useful part of the system to me is the type descriptions themselves.

The directions of integration/disintegration could well be an ad hoc way to justify the shape, or to squeeze out a theory by forcing some facts of human nature to suit the symbol. Or the shape could really be the result of human observations. I kind of doubt the latter, though. But the ad hocness of the theory does not falsify it.
 

Seymour

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Neat take on the history and borrowings of the Enneagram, lots of stuff that I didn't know. Would be interesting to hear more about how the directions of integration/disintegration, rather than the types themselves, could be connected to JCF.

All of these typologies could have bullshit tacked onto them by other people, though; such as this Enneagram color theory or Socionics's DCNH subtype nonsense. Doesn't change the core ideas for me.

I'm surprised that y'all found the directions of integration/disintegration to be useful. You know more about Enneagram than I do, but they seemed to me to be more of a way to justify the use of the shape. The most useful part of the system to me is the type descriptions themselves.

I also find the connections to DSM, placing them all circular-like, to be intriguing and not so far from the truth. At least they didn't try for a one-to-one correspondence between DSM diagnoses and Enneatypes; that would've been suspicious.

I'm more with you on the lines of connection. They don't seem particularly inevitable. I do agree then when one is particular stressed one may shift into alternate defense mechanisms. When one is feeling particularly secure, one may be able to break out of one's habitual defensive structure, and engage in new and more healthy strategies.

I find the most useful bit of the enneagram to be its not overly-pathologizing approach to unhealthy coping strategies. I also like the emphasis on mindfulness, which can help one be more aware of when one is reacting rather than choosing.

Some of the mysticism around the enneagram makes me roll my eyes, and I find the positive side of the enneagram to be not particularly useful.

I think it's interesting that Dan Siegel (of The Developing Mind fame) is working with some others on actual research to see if the enneagram describes someone real. His early perspective is that perhaps it's about a dominate emotion (anger, fear, sadness) combined with a direction of attention (inward, outward, or both inward and outward). I'll be curious to see if anything comes of that, since I think Siegel isn't particularly invested in the enneagram.
 

Mal12345

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Neat take on the history and borrowings of the Enneagram, lots of stuff that I didn't know. Would be interesting to hear more about how the directions of integration/disintegration, rather than the types themselves, could be connected to JCF.

All you would have to do is toss out a JCF-based correlation, but yes, you do have to know something about how JCF and the enneagram already correlate, in theory.

The first thing to do is throw away Riso's correlations, as they don't make sense. There are other correlation systems out there, but rather than merely imitate them, which would flatter them more than they possibly deserve, I prefer to take the independent-thinking route.

If you read the type 7 description, and compare it to Jung's functions, you will honestly find that the 7 does not correlate with any specific function, but definitely with extroversion as an attitude. So that eliminates half of the functions as possible candidates, leaving: Te, Fe, Ne, and Se.

Upon further reading, it's easy to boil these candidates down to Ne and Se, after which the distinction between them is blurred by the intense focus on extroversion and perceiving: Pe.

Ne and Se are the auxiliary types common to those of us who identify with the 5 more than any other e-type. So it is natural for those of us who use too much Ti to become detached from external evidence (Se and Ne). The 5's attention span decreases as he or she is more easily distracted by the non-thinking, perceptive elements of consciousness; the mind races to keep ahead of these distractions. This is described in Riso's terms as disintegrating to 7.
 

indra

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Mal12345

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not a number, i'm a free man
and my blood is my own now
don't care where the past was
i know where i'm going... out!

The best way to be an enneagrammist is not to be one! Because we're not supposed to be "a type," or a false self.
 

Bush

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What the hell? I thought I already replied to this thread. Here it is again. In condensed form though, because screw writing it again.
But the ad hocness of the theory does not falsify it.
Agreed.

I do agree then when one is particular stressed one may shift into alternate defense mechanisms. When one is feeling particularly secure, one may be able to break out of one's habitual defensive structure, and engage in new and more healthy strategies.

I find the most useful bit of the enneagram to be its not overly-pathologizing approach to unhealthy coping strategies. I also like the emphasis on mindfulness, which can help one be more aware of when one is reacting rather than choosing.
Bam, there it is. There are two good goals behind studying typology: studying it for its own sake because it's neat and interesting, and/or using it for awareness of one's own deep-seated biases.
I'll be curious to see if anything comes of that, since I think Siegel isn't particularly invested in the enneagram.
Same.
The first thing to do is throw away Riso's correlations, as they don't make sense.
Definitely. They seem like guesses.
Ne and Se are the auxiliary types common to those of us who identify with the 5 more than any other e-type. So it is natural for those of us who use too much Ti to become detached from external evidence (Se and Ne). The 5's attention span decreases as he or she is more easily distracted by the non-thinking, perceptive elements of consciousness; the mind races to keep ahead of these distractions. This is described in Riso's terms as disintegrating to 7.
I can see that reasoning. But I can see others, too.

What about, say, that 5 integrates to 7 by letting the outside world in (perhaps via Pe)? That 8 (and maybe 1) integrates to 6 by incorporating 'community' input? That 3 disintegrates to 4 when he breaks and clings to a sense of identity?

Those may not be the best examples, but I'm sure that you see where I'm coming from.
 

Mal12345

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What the hell? I thought I already replied to this thread. Here it is again. In condensed form though, because screw writing it again.
Agreed.


Bam, there it is. There are two good goals behind studying typology: studying it for its own sake because it's neat and interesting, and/or using it for awareness of one's own deep-seated biases.
Same.
Definitely. They seem like guesses.
I can see that reasoning. But I can see others, too.

What about, say, that 5 integrates to 7 by letting the outside world in (perhaps via Pe)? That 8 (and maybe 1) integrates to 6 by incorporating 'community' input? That 3 disintegrates to 4 when he breaks and clings to a sense of identity?

Those may not be the best examples, but I'm sure that you see where I'm coming from.

I can see that you're no longer talking about the enneagram except for the idea of 5 integrating to 7.
 

Bush

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I can see that you're no longer talking about the enneagram except for the idea of 5 integrating to 7.
I'm talking about the integration/disintegration idea in the Enneagram. Not picking on 5->7 at all.
 

Mal12345

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I'm talking about the integration/disintegration idea in the Enneagram. Not picking on 5->7 at all.

I'm not saying you're picking on 5 - 7, just that you're no longer talking about the lines of integration/disintegration therefore you're no longer talking about the enneagram. What exactly are you "integrating"?
 

Bush

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I'm not saying you're picking on 5 - 7, just that you're no longer talking about the lines of integration/disintegration therefore you're no longer talking about the enneagram. What exactly are you "integrating"?
I'm talking about the lines of dis/integration. I'm saying that the reasoning behind the dis/integration lines as they exist aren't as obviously true as the Enneagram posits, which is most of the reason why I don't find them to be useful. I want to try to understand why they're seen as useful.

Of course, if I believe that 5 integrates to 7 or that 8 integrates to 6, rather than to 8 and 2 respectively, then I'm technically talking about another system since the Enneagram's definition includes the lines of dis/integration as they are. I'm not concerned about whether or not I'm technically not talking about the Enneagram.


edit: Prime example above. I actually do see the integration of 8 to 2 as baffling. (Of course, this isn't a lynchpin that when removed makes the entire thing fall apart.)
 

Mal12345

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I'm talking about the lines of dis/integration. I'm saying that the reasoning behind the dis/integration lines as they exist aren't as obviously true as the Enneagram posits, which is most of the reason why I don't find them to be useful. I want to try to understand why they're seen as useful.

Of course, if I believe that 5 integrates to 7 or that 8 integrates to 6, rather than to 8 and 2 respectively, then I'm technically talking about another system since the Enneagram's definition includes the lines of dis/integration as they are. I'm not concerned about whether or not I'm technically not talking about the Enneagram.

Here's where you're wrong:

While it's true that 2+2=4 is an obvious truth, when you start examining this equation it no longer seems so obvious after all.

The enneagram is based on universal laws. If you change the enneagram then you're changing universal laws, such as the Law of Harmonics, Trialectical Logic (the Law of Mutation, the Law of Circulation, and the Law of Attraction), and the Law of Octaves. Since you can't change universal laws, your approach to things will be merely speculative, as in some of the worse kinds of science fiction.
 

Bush

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Here's where you're wrong:

While it's true that 2+2=4 is an obvious truth, when you start examining this equation it no longer seems so obvious after all.

The enneagram is based on universal laws. If you change the enneagram then you're changing universal laws, such as the Law of Harmonics, Trialectical Logic (the Law of Mutation, the Law of Circulation, and the Law of Attraction), and the Law of Octaves. Since you can't change universal laws, your approach to things will be merely speculative, as in some of the worse kinds of science fiction.
How is the Enneagram based on universal laws?
 

Doctor Cringelord

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It seems suspect to me.

I've gotta be honest that, when I joined this forum, it was startling how much weight so many members put in the enneagram, with many seemingly placing it ahead of JCF and MBTI as a valid system.
 

Bush

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This explanation is unfortunately very simplified but here you go:

Shapes do show patterns that reality may also follow (see: natural phenomena taking on fractal features). Shapes can make a good predictive tool if they describe some universal pattern. But there are other potential patterns connecting nine points as well. The nonagon comes to mind as probably the simplest example. Or, if one believes that universal patterns occur in threes, you can slap three three-sided shapes (triangles) together to also describe a connection among nine points. Three threes is pretty elegant, and three just happens a lot in nature.

More significant is this: Socionics pulls up mathematical justification for its truth as well. Four binary digits describe 16 types. Holding 1-4 bits constant and allowing the rest to fluctuate creates dichotomies, which in turn lead to Reinin dichotomies, which in turn describe intertype relationships. Mathematical symmetry doesn't make that whole shebang any less suspect.
 

Mal12345

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Shapes do show patterns that reality may also follow (see: natural phenomena taking on fractal features). Shapes can make a good predictive tool if they describe some universal pattern. But there are other potential patterns connecting nine points as well. The nonagon comes to mind as probably the simplest example. Or, if one believes that universal patterns occur in threes, you can slap three three-sided shapes (triangles) together to also describe a connection among nine points. Three threes is pretty elegant, and three just happens a lot in nature.

More significant is this: Socionics pulls up mathematical justification for its truth as well. Four binary digits describe 16 types. Holding 1-4 bits constant and allowing the rest to fluctuate creates dichotomies, which in turn lead to Reinin dichotomies, which in turn describe intertype relationships. Mathematical symmetry doesn't make that whole shebang any less suspect.

I didn't believe in the enneagram for any metaphysical reasons, only because it was such a great help - over 20 years ago. But it really hasn't done anything for me since then.
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

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Hey Mal, this is interesting. I don't disagree with a lot of what you're saying, actually. It panders to the masses, and some of the authors do a piss-poor job correlating it to other system. I agree.

But it sounds like you don't like the enneagram anymore simply because of these things. It sounds more like it's a reaction against this, rather than any inherent annoyance with the system itself. So I guess my question is, is it really that bad?? I just sort of ignore the "campy" stuff and come to my own understanding.

I like JCF a lot now, too, though.

The only thing I like about the enneagram are the lines of integration and disintegration, but only because I believe these are in some way related to JCF. In other words, the enneagram has credibility only in reference to another theory that has credibility.
I'd like to hear more about that part, actually. You mentioned Pe correlating to 7 and being an IxxP and identifying with 5, already. That seems astute. If you have any other thoughts, I'd love to hear them.
 
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