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  1. #191
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Hmm I am not relating to this concept of merging as an end point for nine. It's certainly not something I strive for or desire. It's an almost inevitable happening when other people are around. Often times, I know what I want when there is no one else around. As soon as you add a person to the mix, it's like *poof* I lost the ability to think for myself. I am keenly aware of and constantly thinking of that other person and what they need or want. In fact, even though I don't always know what to do when no one else is around, I am always aware of what I could do or what I might like to do. When I had children (over 20 years ago now), it was of course no longer easy to balance that, and I think up until that point, I did not realize how much tension there could be when what others needed conflicted with the boundaries of one's stamina. Now, of course children need you and there are no options, you are going to get up in the middle of the night, you're going to take care of them even if you are ill, but somehow that opened my eyes to the level of merging? Because it ventured into the uncomfortable zone of "Hey, my needs are totally being obliterated here" rather than the easier to not-notice blending into other people's desires and wants.

    So, merging is not an end-point, it's more of a foregone conclusion. It's not accompanied with the intense and craved-for feelings of sx-merging, it's more like a void, a black hole. It's the waking up, the being present to oneself in the here and now that's the destination for 9's, the liberation that your voice matters.

    eta: That's not to say that in the merging, making the other person happy, you don't feel happy that they're happy. You do. It's just that, you released something to make that happen rather than blend it, and sometimes you aren't even aware of what you let go.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
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  2. #192
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The question is WHY you love and crave change. You are an Ne-dom, after all. My being Ni-dom doesn't make me e5 or e6.
    I believe I understand you're point here uumlau and so I should clarify...

    (as you know) It's not uncommon for 7s to mistype as 9s and vice versa as they both share positive outlook, etc. while sloth/gluttony can quite often look and feel like the same 'sin.' And so I asked the 9s in this thread for feedback regarding one of those "how to tell the difference" tricks of the enneagram trade... (and really appreciate the 9s that took the time to respond as I find this all so interesting and know it's helpful to so many people wanting to understand 9 better.)

    And now that I've had an opportunity to consider it in a more meaningful way - it makes sense. 7s are individualistic at their best (total narcissists at their worst) and in this way possess exactly what is needed to not merely weather change but enjoy it. To have a deep sense of gratitude for the opportunities change brings about when healthy...or to use change as a distraction from pain when unhealthy. Whether the 7s sense of self is accurate or inflated/deflated...it is *strong* and for the most part 'chaos resistant.'

    ^^If the opposite is true for the average-to-unhealthy 9 and the sense of self is being upheld/supplemented by an internal as well as external framework then no...I wouldn't be hot for change. I would most definitely walk around saying "don't anyone make any sudden moves - see this framework? let's all move rather slowly like a sloth." <-With Pe auxs constituting the majority of the e9 population obviously some sort of compromising/balancing is taking place between these two opposites - a simultaneous desire for newness and "sameness." @Saoirse reports day-dreaming, fantasizing etc. about plans and ideas which interestingly is a defining feature/behavior of the e7 sx whom is most often seen described as a "glutton for ideas." @Kasper whom I'm now extremely jealous of has achieved some sort of Zen-like state haha and my ex is an artist and does all kinds of crazy shit within the framework to keep Pe happy.

    What I was referring to though is very specific to e7 sx and I'm pretty sure Lady X understood what I was saying in spite of what may have seemed like a more 'general' response regarding change from her. Like I said above 9s merge...all 9s regardless of variant merge... and that merging is for the most part considered an end point. A defining characteristic of...not the 7 so...not the 7 sp but specifically the 7 sx is once they merge with an intimate as a sx dom... regardless of the presence of Pe... there's a sense of being 'born anew' really. It's an absolute beginning. In no way does this experience feel like "*heavy sigh* now I can relax in the security of my comfortable e9 structure with my feet up on the coffee table in peaceful bliss." No way. For e7 sx it's like "let's get this amazing adventure underway!" You feel like you are overflowing with love and abundance and want to do all these beautiful things with the other... you wonder if there will be enough time. This was the 'love and crave change' I was wanting to remind Lady X of.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    The difference is focus on the future v living in the present.

    As a Ne dom it is not accurate to say I want things to stay the same or that I resist new and interesting, that would be boring, routine is very hard for me to maintain for this reason, it's uninspired, I do not however live in the future at the expense of the moment, when something fantastic happens I can be 'in' it and feel satisfied with that moment. A 7 would be more inclined to quickly move to "what next", to me it has a 'chase the high' kind of vibe to it. The other element is as much as I adore new and 'adventure' I'm not quick to move to make things happen, I can float along until I hit resistance or opportunity pretty easily, because along with my love of change comes a love of comfort and so long as there is new mental material for my Ne to chew on I can be satisfied.

    See, I'm now having flashbacks to your own e9 thread. What makes the above e9 and not e5 integration/healthy e7? I'm seriously asking you because I find your explanations easier to understand for me so now you kinda have to answer haha *obligation merge* I would really appreciate it

    As they [7s] experience the world more deeply, they find each moment fascinating, profound, and revelatory. The idea of boredom becomes absurd as they savor the incredible mysteries of existence, moment by moment.



    @Lady_X did you see this post (below) where I awesomely attached a 9 sx description?


    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_X View Post
    Yeah it would be fantastic to get some type 9 sx and some non 729 peeps up in here.

    starry...that all makes sense but at the same time feels like everything has to be twisted and turned just so to make it fit...which feels off to me..

    but yeah merging is the beginning for me...And i love and crave change....le sigh


    I've seen you say this so many times regarding different aspects of enneagram that I don't know how you mean it now. Do you feel 7 must get twisted in order to fit? I'd actually be interested in how you are slipping into the core issues of 9 so easily (if that is in fact what is occurring.)

    fwiw I feel you are merely a very healthy 7 and this is why you struggle with a theory based primarily on pathology.

    At their best, Sevens are appreciative, bountiful, thoughtful, accomplished, versatile, receptive, grateful, content, quiet, and passionate.
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  3. #193
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Like I said above 9s merge...all 9s regardless of variant merge... and that merging is for the most part considered an end point. ... In no way does this experience feel like "*heavy sigh* now I can relax in the security of my comfortable e9 structure with my feet up on the coffee table in peaceful bliss."
    Again with the end point ...why are we saying it's an end point? It's a false one I guess? But I don't relate to it, and I am trying to remember if I ever felt that merging was an end-point?

    The merging to me is like a constant see-saw of up and down - when I over-merge I have to un-merge, it's this continual attempt to find the center. Where merging balances with liberation, where I help you fully be you and I still am fully me too, helping me be fully me. I haven't felt that journey be complete or relaxing. It doesn't feel secure in that it feels like I am simultaneously in danger of being lost.

    I can't ever remember feeling like, "Wow, here I am snug as a bug in this very safe feeling of being asleep to myself."
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
    Likes Lady_X liked this post

  4. #194
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Again with the end point ...why are we saying it's an end point? It's a false one I guess? But I don't relate to it, and I am trying to remember if I ever felt that merging was an end-point?

    The merging to me is like a constant see-saw of up and down - when I over-merge I have to un-merge, it's this continual attempt to find the center. Where merging balances with liberation, where I help you fully be you and I still am fully me too, helping me be fully me. I haven't felt that journey be complete or relaxing. It doesn't feel secure in that it feels like I am simultaneously in danger of being lost.

    I can't ever remember feeling like, "Wow, here I am snug as a bug in this very safe feeling of being asleep to myself."

    Well, shit, Peacebaby... I guess I missed the part where the good Lord Himself came down from the heavens above and commanded that all references to enneagram 9 must be something that you not only relate to...but approve of.

  5. #195
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    ^^I'm in the process of packing and only had a few minutes to devote to running searches on e9 merging and a reference to a "destination" or "end point" and came up empty handed. Still, this is an actual description I have seen attached to e9 whether it is accepted as such...I'm cool either way.



    Enneagram 9
    Basic Fear: Of loss and separation.

    Key Motivations: Want to create harmony in their environment, to avoid conflicts and tension, to preserve things as they are, to resist whatever would upset or disturb them.
    Once merged...that is a state that is to be maintained unchanged. It is not to evolve from its original form. It is a final destination or an end/final state. Which is different from e7 sx that starts from a place of abundance...optimism generally prevents them from experiencing fears of loss and what occurrences are more likely to bring about loss of a loved one...like change...and so the e7 merges and says "let's evolve...let's experience...let's grow like weeds together." <-New beginning or starting point.

  6. #196
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Was talking to a 974 INFJ about this the other day -- she loves change and hates stagnation. I wonder if the thing that needs to be preserved, for 97x, is harmony -- so THAT has to stay the same -- but just about anything else could change without causing too much of a stir for them?

    By contrast I have a 96x INFJ friend who is very quick to stagnate, and cling to stability at the expense of long-term happiness.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  7. #197
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Was talking to a 974 INFJ about this the other day -- she loves change and hates stagnation. I wonder if the thing that needs to be preserved, for 97x, is harmony -- so THAT has to stay the same -- but just about anything else could change without causing too much of a stir for them?

    By contrast I have a 96x INFJ friend who is very quick to stagnate, and cling to stability at the expense of long-term happiness.

    Some 9s don't merge with intimates, groups, environments...but rather roles, concepts and images (easy rider always comes to mind.)

    The other thing that comes to mind is how relative these terms are regarding fears that we're doing what we can to keep hidden from ourselves. Is change moving to Cairo, Egypt on a whim because you wanted to see the pyramids before you die? Or is avoiding stagnation...changing salad dressings one day or signing up for salsa lessons? It's always so difficult to assess these things from the individual's perspective.

  8. #198
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Well, shit, Peacebaby... I guess I missed the part where the good Lord Himself came down from the heavens above and commanded that all references to enneagram 9 must be something that you not only relate to...but approve of.
    Yes He has actually, so maybe you should get your shit together and get it right.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #199
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I'm going to add: I'm not proud of that post above, but I'm going to leave it there anyway. It felt like @Starry kicked me in the guts and I am tired of people knowing I am not likely going to shove their own shit back in their faces when they deliver it to me and afterward try to convince me it's not shit. Or that I am being sensitive. Your reply was hurtful and unkind. If my post kicked you in the guts back, I apologize.

    My post above, saying that this concept of merging being the end-point just doesn't jive, and saying that out loud IS WHAT DOM Fi DOES. Fi is self-referential in that how we discern the accuracy of things is from the inside out, felt interiorly, by feeling. If something written or spoken does not resonate for whatever reason inside me, it's because either I am wrong or the information is wrong or the way we are interpreting the information is wrong, a hundred ways it could be wrong but something is wrong. It is how dom Fi figures the world out, IMHO. When I refer to ME in MY posts it is because the interior of me is the compass of my understanding. YET AGAIN it is misinterpreted as me, high and mighty, imagining myself the center of the universe, or something patently ridiculous like that.

    SO, no, GOD himself did not tell me that the references to enneagram 9 should meet with my approval. But, He did give me a gut to tell me when something is wrong. I really don't care what aspect is wrong, I could be wrong, and although I do like to be right, I really don't care who or what is, because that's not the part I am invested in. I just need to know how it resonates for other people to suss that 'right or wrong' out. I will pursue the "truth" in the best way I know how to come to a better understanding of what at least is potentially more true. True truth cannot be known. I do not want to make any apology anymore for that opinionated place inside of me that has to express itself in disagreement to find agreement.

    So, I am sorry if that's a burden on you to hear my words, but I would ask that you keep your exasperation politely in check and don't use me as a vessel to dump it into, and until you demonstrate more clarity in how you express your words, I simply don't think you know as much of what you are talking about when it comes to the interior of e9. I do agree however, that the likelihood of Lady X being e9 is low. It does feel right however to say it is in her tritype.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #200
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I believe I understand you're point here uumlau and so I should clarify...

    (as you know) It's not uncommon for 7s to mistype as 9s and vice versa as they both share positive outlook, etc. while sloth/gluttony can quite often look and feel like the same 'sin.' And so I asked the 9s in this thread for feedback regarding one of those "how to tell the difference" tricks of the enneagram trade... (and really appreciate the 9s that took the time to respond as I find this all so interesting and know it's helpful to so many people wanting to understand 9 better.)

    And now that I've had an opportunity to consider it in a more meaningful way - it makes sense. 7s are individualistic at their best (total narcissists at their worst) and in this way possess exactly what is needed to not merely weather change but enjoy it. To have a deep sense of gratitude for the opportunities change brings about when healthy...or to use change as a distraction from pain when unhealthy. Whether the 7s sense of self is accurate or inflated/deflated...it is *strong* and for the most part 'chaos resistant.'

    ^^If the opposite is true for the average-to-unhealthy 9 and the sense of self is being upheld/supplemented by an internal as well as external framework then no...I wouldn't be hot for change. I would most definitely walk around saying "don't anyone make any sudden moves - see this framework? let's all move rather slowly like a sloth." <-With Pe auxs constituting the majority of the e9 population obviously some sort of compromising/balancing is taking place between these two opposites - a simultaneous desire for newness and "sameness." @Saoirse reports day-dreaming, fantasizing etc. about plans and ideas which interestingly is a defining feature/behavior of the e7 sx whom is most often seen described as a "glutton for ideas." @Kasper whom I'm now extremely jealous of has achieved some sort of Zen-like state haha and my ex is an artist and does all kinds of crazy shit within the framework to keep Pe happy.

    What I was referring to though is very specific to e7 sx and I'm pretty sure Lady X understood what I was saying in spite of what may have seemed like a more 'general' response regarding change from her. Like I said above 9s merge...all 9s regardless of variant merge... and that merging is for the most part considered an end point. A defining characteristic of...not the 7 so...not the 7 sp but specifically the 7 sx is once they merge with an intimate as a sx dom... regardless of the presence of Pe... there's a sense of being 'born anew' really. It's an absolute beginning. In no way does this experience feel like "*heavy sigh* now I can relax in the security of my comfortable e9 structure with my feet up on the coffee table in peaceful bliss." No way. For e7 sx it's like "let's get this amazing adventure underway!" You feel like you are overflowing with love and abundance and want to do all these beautiful things with the other... you wonder if there will be enough time. This was the 'love and crave change' I was wanting to remind Lady X of.






    See, I'm now having flashbacks to your own e9 thread. What makes the above e9 and not e5 integration/healthy e7? I'm seriously asking you because I find your explanations easier to understand for me so now you kinda have to answer haha *obligation merge* I would really appreciate it






    @Lady_X did you see this post (below) where I awesomely attached a 9 sx description?









    I've seen you say this so many times regarding different aspects of enneagram that I don't know how you mean it now. Do you feel 7 must get twisted in order to fit? I'd actually be interested in how you are slipping into the core issues of 9 so easily (if that is in fact what is occurring.)

    fwiw I feel you are merely a very healthy 7 and this is why you struggle with a theory based primarily on pathology.
    I relate to really wanting to secure a good standing with my bosses, teachers, and family. I also love sharing whatever is going through my head, and will relate everyday experiences to fantastic ones.
    Enneagram: 6w7 (phobic) > 2w1 > 9w1
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Holland Code: AIS
    Date of Birth: March 15, 1996
    Gender: Male
    Political Stance: Libertarian Liberal (Arizona School/Strong BHL)
    ATHEIST UNITARIAN UNIVERSALIST HUMANIST
    and
    SCIENCE ENTHUSIAST


    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

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