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  1. #161
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I challenge this (bolded). Perhaps as an aside, because I’m not saying I see this in lady x (who does seem very e9 to me, fwiw), but I have experienced e9s who err in the direction of not respecting appropriate boundaries/feel too entitled to dictate shared reality.

    Using my (9w8) sister as an example- usually it's because she doesn't like that someone is pointing something out (something which she is avoiding) and she resorts to all sorts of gas-lighting tactics to make it go away. I think she's gas-lighting herself as much as anyone else- into believing the problem isn't there, or that the problem is something more pleasant to deal with than it actually is- but in doing so, she consequently seems to feel the need to impose this misdirection on others. It kinda feels like she's trying to use the "this is what the problem actually is” Jedi mind trick to control the shared reality going on around her. When it doesn't work on a peaceful level (when she can't make the problem go away with some respectful slight of hand) she resorts to heavier and heavier gas-lighting tactics, whatever it takes to never lose composure and never feel angry. Or something.

    And I have an ISFP 9w8 friend who does the same thing, on a much lesser scale (whether the lesser scale is because he’s only a friend and not my family- to whom we generally show our sleepiest behaviors- I don’t know).

    I really have no idea how common this is, but my only point is that I’ve experienced e9 erring on boundaries in the other direction too. So I don't think the bolded universally applies to all 9s. (Though where it does apply, boy howdy, it really does apply.)
    What you're describing appears to be a 9 with a distinct lack of boundaries. When I say "setting boundaries," I mean openly and honestly telling others those things "up with which I will not put." That takes courage. The gaslighting you observe sounds more like a variation on passive-aggressiveness, which is a fairly common 9 trait.

    Setting boundaries example: "I love you and I trust you, but I really don't want you rummaging through my stuff. If you want something, just ask."

    Gaslighting example (?): "Stop stealing my stuff." "I didn't take your stuff." "Then why is my <whatever> missing?"

    Perhaps not a good example on the gaslighting, as you weren't too specific. The main difference between the two should be clear: the first is proactive, the 2nd is reactive. The first takes courage to initiate, the 2nd is a reaction to the pain of feeling anger that one wants to avoid.
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  2. #162
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    Really great discussion here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    If you're lucky you're not, much, well lucky may not be the right word. On one hand it is a powerful force that can push a 9 to being self-propelled, knowing what we don't want helps show what we do and force us to set boundaries, on the other hand if anger is there, once you learn what the signs are it can feel overpowering because you're aware of the anger.
    Seems like what I've seen/experienced from/discussed with my 9w8 partner.

    I consider that the w8 influence, the drama is if the 9 is resisting dealing with problems the avoidance and pushing down can cause things to come to a head when things are too far gone and there is no chance of an even reaction.
    Yes. Lack of awareness of and/or articulation of boundaries plus anger as a marker of boundaries can actually verge on abusive behavior.

    9w8 is well visualised as a caricature when thinking of Bruce Banner/Hulk. Unassuming, withdraw and chill, but able to rage hot.
    Absolutely, we've discussed this before and it fits very well.

    That said, no one would have seen my rage since I was a teen, not because it isn't there, just because I fear letting it out, the consequences of it, and I have enough control to notice it and temper it. Plus recognising signs of rising anger early means I can be proactive about things.
    Pushing it down isn't good, but yeah, in my experience from the outside, allowing the 9w8 anger to be the expression or marker of previously unaddressed or unspoken boundaries is pretty terrible as a way to interact with another person, in my experience with a 9w8 at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    9s are typically terrible with boundaries, we let them get pushed past the point other types would. The issue is not believing a right to asserting those boundaries in the first place. "Standing up for boundaries" is not a natural thing for a 9. This does not imply that we react with ease as a collective when they are walked over, stubbornness is something that 9s are brilliant at. When you hit on something we do not want we can become immovable and defiant, more than any other type.
    From what I've seen and experienced from the outside ... the 9w8/boundary thing reminds me of a sensor that doesn't function correctly in any direction. So it doesn't function correctly to give clarity about what the boundaries are on one hand, and then when a boundary is crossed, it doesn't function correctly in reaction to it. Like a temperature sensor that's supposed to keep things from getting too cold OR too hot and is malfunctioning and veering from one extreme to the other. Does that resonate from your side of it?

    eta - and this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    The big thing for me is the focus; w8 is rage, w1 is critical (regardless of this is seen by anyone) looking deeper it means w8 is external, w1 is internal. An example of that, a 9w1 and a 9w8 are both late for work 5 days in a row and people are getting pissssed at them. They've clearly both made a decision internally that arriving on time is not something that matters to them, however they both apologise as others are upset, the w1 says it was my fault, I forgot to set my alarm, I didn't take into account traffic, *I* messed up. The w8 says my alarm didn't go off, the traffic was hectic, *something* else played a role, in other words "sorry, but...". The w1 is already critical, they already see themselves as the one to blame, the w8 is already looking outward at all the external factors.
    Yes the w8 side totally resonates with what I have seen and my gf has described many times about herself. She says she's always looking outside herself for the problem because that's what she can see. For someone like me (not a 9, a 6, but other aspects of my background show up here as well) - it's so odd because it's just a given that my often knee-jerk and sometimes pretty unhealthy response to problems is to assume I'm responsible and it's somehow my fault. Why do you think an 8 wing on a 9 would yield that external focus, do you know?

    And @Kasper, wow ... overall I'm really appreciating your contributions on this topic (and in the other thread about 9s and 6s)

  3. #163
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    From what I've seen and experienced from the outside ... the 9w8/boundary thing reminds me of a sensor that doesn't function correctly in any direction. So it doesn't function correctly to give clarity about what the boundaries are on one hand, and then when a boundary is crossed, it doesn't function correctly in reaction to it. Like a temperature sensor that's supposed to keep things from getting too cold OR too hot and is malfunctioning and veering from one extreme to the other. Does that resonate from your side of it?
    For me personally, and even as an Extrovert, it's needing time to sit and consider what just happened in a specific situation and therefore what my boundaries should be. I feel the resistance when violated, but I don't connect the discomfort to a specific boundary without consideration. This is because my focus is on reading other people, it's a constant never ending hyper-vigilant thing, imagine the attention you pay as a 6 to potential danger, well as a 9 I place that kind of attention on other people's emotional state to see the cues when things are not okay, when the peace may be broken, when someone may react to me in an undesired manner. The cost for a 6 to be hyper aware of danger is it's super tough to just be in the moment, the cost of that hyper awareness on others for me as a 9 is my own position and needs are not considered, I'm too tuned in to looking somewhere else.

    Example, from experience: Someone in a 'credible' position (doctor), asks me highly inappropriate and unnecessary questions while breaching the confidence you should expect (sharing the 'interesting information' with the receptionist who walks past, and a 3rd party on the phone while I'm sitting there), my instinctive reaction is to presume good and honourable intentions so I was kinda like a deer in headlights, stunned about the inappropriateness of it all yet looking at things from his pov so, I smile and answer his questions as if he has a right to know. As my focus is on other people and I can easily see where they're coming from I see the validity in their pov, the validity for them in their questions, and my being mistreated doesn't come into the picture. Then I go home and ponder what has just happened and find myself becoming more and more angry about the situation, at the fact someone in a professional position would be so unprofessional, and that I allowed it to happen. From that experience I now have a boundary with doctors that I am hyper aware of, if a doctor starts to disrespect me or be inappropriate I stand my ground, I make it clear that I advocate for myself and am not asking for their permission to be, just their services, I now have my guard up in that situation because I have sat down and worked out what my boundaries are and accepted that it is reasonable for me to have them and that I deserve to have them respected - this would not happen naturally.

    So it's less like a faulty sensor for me, and more about the default position of trusting I won't be violated and being unprepared the first time a boundary is crossed, once aware of the boundary I am equipped to defend it. I would still be polite about it, but it will not be crossed.

    The thing with 9s: We treat others how we want to be treated, and are not automatically equipped when that isn't the reality we are faced with.


    Yes the w8 side totally resonates with what I have seen and my gf has described many times about herself. She says she's always looking outside herself for the problem because that's what she can see. For someone like me (not a 9, a 6, but other aspects of my background show up here as well) - it's so odd because it's just a given that my often knee-jerk and sometimes pretty unhealthy response to problems is to assume I'm responsible and it's somehow my fault. Why do you think an 8 wing on a 9 would yield that external focus, do you know?
    A number of things come to mind:

    - Personally vulnerability plays a role, I have a major massive tough time with allowing myself to be vulnerable, the irrational fear that people will take advantage or abuse me, or worse still, want me to be someone other than who I am. If it's not about 'me' then they cannot do any of those things.

    - The lusty side of the 8 is something I can relate to, on the other side I am just not critical, of others or myself. I dislike denying myself whatever I want in the moment, too much focus on the critical wouldn't fly with that.

    - Introspection for me is about understanding, not blame, I have a hard relationship with blame, I'd rather there was none at all, just different ways of being, putting the blame on environmental factors when there must be blame satisfies that.


    And @Kasper, wow ... overall I'm really appreciating your contributions on this topic (and in the other thread about 9s and 6s)

  4. #164
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    My wife is a 9w8. Do you have a specific example of gaslighting?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Am curious as to what you mean by 'gas-lighting tactics'?
    The gaslighting comment was about my sister, I didn’t mean to imply I think gaslighting is a 9 thing per se. It just happens to be the way my sister is an example of a 9 who lands on the ‘too entitled’ end. And it’s only sometimes, with some people. I’ve suspected before that it’s like a compensation thing- sort of like resisting paying the barber because of something the baker did type deal. I was feeling dubious of the “probably reasonable” part of “if a type 9 is standing up for boundaries, they are probably reasonable”. Sometimes people throw down demands in an area that’s ‘safer’, so they don’t risk losing something they actually need but they still get to participate in some kind of exchange. (If that made any sense.)

    I’m sorry, I’m not willing to post specific personal examples. Maybe it’ll suffice to say that my sister gaslights me to buy time to indefinitely prolong the resistance about many things that effect me, and she’s in denial about how they effect me. If I get back to writing a more thorough thing on the issues I have with my sister in my blog, I’ll maybe tag up some forum 9s here to ask about it.

    And this friend I had- there were some run-of-the-mill male entitlements and some manipulation. I haven’t talked to him much in years because of it. I was embarrassed by the way he’d started treated women. The clearest example that comes to mind: there were a couple of women he dated who wanted to be celibate until marriage, and he knew they were abstaining when he got into a relationship with them- but then he’d start to complain about how he might need to break up because he wanted an “adult relationship.” That really bothered me. I guess ‘gaslighting’ applies in the sense that it seemed to me like he was trying to make them doubt their judgment/perception (implying it wasn’t a “grown up” way to be, repeatedly- and yes, he'd actually use the phrase 'grown up'), though it also seems perhaps too strong a term. At any rate, he felt entitled to something he shouldn’t and tried going after it with passive aggressive means.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    I believe that uumlau comes from a point of view of a certain level of maturity in his posts, the immature version would involve stubbornness imo which is passive, not active resistance to having boundaries walked over. Am curious about your experience if that doesn't match.
    Yes, uumlau is coming from a mature place and that is a big part what I was getting at. And yeah, a huge part of the frustration is the obstinate resistance- but I was also kinda just trying to point out that sometimes there actually can be an unwarranted sense of entitlement involved, even if it’s only a misplaced sense of entitlement to compensate for not enough entitlement in other places.

    And again- I do agree that usually the problem with 9 is on the end of not feeling enough entitlement. In fact, I remember a thread Seymour started on enneatypes and maladaptive schemas- 5 and 9 were both listed as being correlated with negative entitlement.

    I really don’t want to take over lady x’s thread with this. I just wanted to point out how there be dragons in the notion “if a type 9 is standing up for boundaries, they are probably reasonable.”


    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Gaslighting example (?): "Stop stealing my stuff." "I didn't take your stuff." "Then why is my <whatever> missing?"
    Yeah, this is exactly one of the things that happens! I actually do notice things missing sometimes after she’s been over. Even at the age we are at now- I’m 43, she’s 47- it’s still pointless to ask her if she has borrowed something of mine. Something would go missing (like a CD or DVD) after she'd been over to babysit my son, I'd ask her if she borrowed it, she'd say 'no' but invariably I'd find it amongst her things while over at her house. If something is missing and I really want it back, I know I need be very covert about checking to see if she has it to get it back. I can’t be direct about much of anything with her. Which makes me kinda sad- if only because it’s always stuff that I’d be more than willing to part with if she’d only ask- but it is what it is.

    eta: If I try pointing out I'd found something she'd previously said 'no' about- and tried setting the 'you just have to ask' boundary- I already know I'd get the Elizabeth Mitchell caliber lip curl/raised eyebrow "Seriously?" face, probably an eye roll, and some kind of "I didn't 'deny it', I obviously just forgot I borrowed it, if you're even remembering this correctly. You don't have to be so dramatic about it." <- It's like being punished for even trying to set boundaries (she tries to make me doubt my own memory/perception as a consequence for TRYING to set boundaries....and she just cranks up the volume the more I pursue it), and it's infuriating.

    more eta:

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    What you're describing appears to be a 9 with a distinct lack of boundaries. When I say "setting boundaries," I mean openly and honestly telling others those things "up with which I will not put." That takes courage. The gaslighting you observe sounds more like a variation on passive-aggressiveness, which is a fairly common 9 trait.

    And okay, yeah, I'm working with a slightly different understanding of "boundaries". It sounds like mindfulness is an inherent aspect of "setting boundaries" in what you said- ie that if someone is "standing up for boundaries", then they're doing it correctly and not unconsciously transgressing- and where that's the case then I'd agree with your earlier statement. What I'd kinda heard was something more along the lines of "if a 9 feels like they should be getting something, they should probably listen to that gut feeling/it's probably reasonable."
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  5. #165
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_X View Post
    but wasn't she isfp or something? i like to resolve stuff and can't function well when my relationship is off.
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  6. #166
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Yeah, this is exactly one of the things that happens! I actually do notice things missing sometimes after she’s been over. Even at the age we are at now- I’m 43, she’s 47- it’s still pointless to ask her if she has borrowed something of mine. Something would go missing (like a CD or DVD) after she'd been over to babysit my son, I'd ask her if she borrowed it, she'd say 'no' but invariably I'd find it amongst her things while over at her house. If something is missing and I really want it back, I know I need be very covert about checking to see if she has it to get it back. I can’t be direct about much of anything with her. Which makes me kinda sad- if only because it’s always stuff that I’d be more than willing to part with if she’d only ask- but it is what it is.

    eta: If I try pointing out I'd found something she'd previously said 'no' about- and tried setting the 'you just have to ask' boundary- I already know I'd get the Elizabeth Mitchell caliber lip curl/raised eyebrow "Seriously?" face, probably an eye roll, and some kind of "I didn't 'deny it', I obviously just forgot I borrowed it, if you're even remembering this correctly. You don't have to be so dramatic about it." <- It's like being punished for even trying to set boundaries (she tries to make me doubt my own memory/perception as a consequence for TRYING to set boundaries....and she just cranks up the volume the more I pursue it), and it's infuriating.

    more eta:

    And okay, yeah, I'm working with a slightly different understanding of "boundaries". It sounds like mindfulness is an inherent aspect of "setting boundaries" in what you said- ie that if someone is "standing up for boundaries", then they're doing it correctly and not unconsciously transgressing- and where that's the case then I'd agree with your earlier statement. What I'd kinda heard was something more along the lines of "if a 9 feels like they should be getting something, they should probably listen to that gut feeling/it's probably reasonable."
    Yeah, your example of "gaslighting" isn't really gaslighting in my opinion. It's definitely a case of ignoring others' boundaries, and lying about transgressing them. It's all reactive.

    I think you may have been generalizing "boundaries" to include notions of entitlement. Note that usually it's the 9 that is feeling transgressed upon, not that 9s cannot or do not transgress upon others. When the 9 stands up and resists transgressions upon his or her self, emotions/ideas/property, that is almost always a healthy action for a 9 to take. If a 9 is just ignoring others' boundaries in a passive/aggressive way, then that's the same-old same-old unhealthy behavior for which 9s are known.
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  7. #167
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    haha. This might though as I just thought of this.

    I was just writing in a different thread that I do relate to Clementine (Eternal Sunshine Clementine) when she says in that movie that she feels like she's "coming out of her skin." I can get agitated like that. It's not boredom though...in fact it's the opposite of boredom. It's like too much static or something idk. I'm off my flow and yes I am wanting something to shift so I can go back to feeling life's joy and meaning again.
    Same. Silence is golden.
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  8. #168
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_X View Post
    sure i relate to that too...it's a restlessness. i get that way too...sort of just wanting or craving something new in my life...some new adventure or twist in the path...yes...i do...but as often as a core 7...i'm not sure. it feels as tho it takes quite awhile to get there...maybe...perhaps..
    need something new, but not sure what? Too tired to find out?
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    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

  9. #169
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riva View Post
    There are so many hahas in this thread.

    If i had asperges i'd be so confused right now trying to figure out what's so funny.
    I have mild, high-functioning aspergers, and I get some of it.
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  10. #170
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    need something new, but not sure what? Too tired to find out?
    i'm not tired no...i'm not really super low energy...just calm, usually. and for my situation mostly i feel stuck...like i can't do the things i want to do. due to the very real life obstacle that is joint custody. it makes me nuts. i don't want to actually live here. i find it way boring and feel like my life is on pause for now....like i just have to live it for them right now.
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