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  1. #61
    hypersane Hive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Type 7 lacking in = Dutifulness Responsibleness and Self-discipline
    Yes.

    Type 1 strong in = Conscientousness, Dutifulness, Meticulousness (Responsibleness?) and Self-discipline and Self-criticalness
    I have no experience with type 1, but this is correct according to most (all) descriptions I've read.

    So is type 1 the opposite of type 7?
    In many ways, yeah.

    But since they're connected through their integration/disintegration points, personal development for a type 1 means embracing some 7 characteristics like spontaneity, opening up to new possibilities instead of viewing many things as set in stone, becoming more accepting of themselves and others instead of resentful or critical, and for type 7 it means that under stress they can become harsh critics and impose rules on themselves to try and counteract their disorganization, which is a bad idea because it will trigger the 7's fear of being trapped within confinements.

    That's the theory, anyway. Personally, as a 7, setting up rules for myself and getting my shit together actually worked great to get things done.
    Despite never having met a type 1, I like how they're described on paper. Self-organized people of action. I admire that.

    What MBTI types are commonly correlated with enneagram 7? What does that tell us?
    ExxP.

    A few ISxP's too, perhaps some ENTJ's. But the vast majority are ExxP.

    Don't know the percentages of type 7 distribution among each of the ExxP's, but I'm gonna guess 7 is the most common or second most common type for each of them.
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  2. #62
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hive View Post
    ExxP.

    A few ISTP's too, perhaps some ENTJ's. But the vast majority are ExxP.

    Don't know the percentages of type 7 distribution among each of the ExxP's, but I'm gonna guess they're the most common or second most common type for each of them.
    So the mirror image of an ExxP would be an IxxJ... Would it be plausible to say that enneagram 1s have a high probability of being an IxxJ type?

  3. #63
    hypersane Hive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    So the mirror image of an ExxP would be an IxxJ...
    Yeah, but that's kind of a no brainer, don't you think?

    ExxP's lead with Pe, and IxxJ's lead with Pi.

    Would it be plausible to say that enneagram 1s have a high probability of being an IxxJ type?
    I'd say so. At the very least a Judger. I reckon type 1 Perceivers are very uncommon.

    From what I've observed in typology communities, 1's are mostly ISTJ's and INFJ's. Then some ESTJ's. Occasionally a few INTJ's. 1 or 2 ENTJ's, IIRC. Never seen an ISFJ or ENFJ identifying as type 1, strangely enough.

    But this is my limited experience only. @BlackCat and @Zarathustra both made charts with JCF/enneagram correlations based on what I think was the self-reported types of typology community members. They're around here somewhere, I suggest you take a look at them.
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  4. #64
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hive View Post
    Yeah, but that's kind of a no brainer, don't you think?

    ExxP's lead with Pe, and IxxJ's lead with Pi.

    I'd say so. At the very least a Judger. I reckon type 1 Perceivers are very uncommon.

    From what I've observed in typology communities, 1's are mostly ISTJ's and INFJ's. Then some ESTJ's. Occasionally a few INTJ's. 1 or 2 ENTJ's, IIRC. Never seen an ISFJ or ENFJ identifying as type 1, strangely enough.

    But this is my limited experience only. @BlackCat and @Zarathustra both made charts with JCF/enneagram correlations based on what I think was the self-reported types of typology community members. It's around here somewhere, I suggest you take a look at it.
    Thanks, I've already seen those charts...

    An ExxP type would either be a Se or Ne-dom.. So it wouldn't be too far fetched to assume that an enneagram 1, being inversely related with enneagram 7s, hence ExxPs, would probably be an Si or Ni-dom...? So an IxxJ basically?

  5. #65
    hypersane Hive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    An ExxP type would either be a Se or Ne-dom..
    In most but not all cases, yes.

    So it wouldn't be too far fetched to assume that an enneagram 1, being inversely related with enneagram 7s, hence ExxPs, would probably be an Si or Ni-dom...? So an IxxJ basically?
    It's very likely a type 1 would be IxxJ in JCF theory, but the portion of type 1's who aren't IxxJ's is too big to immediately assume that someone who identifies as a 1 is also an IxxJ.

    However, if someone self-types as a 7, I'd say it's very safe to assume they're also an ExxP.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Aw, thanks so much for your sympathy for poor, different-from-earlier-times me. I'm just one of the many dysfunctional people on this site that needs to be pitied and enlightened to my dysfunctional state of mind. As I understand it, I've been brain-washed, manipulated, and mislead into self-flagellation and no longer have a mind of my own. Maybe it would be kindest to just let me wallow in my self-delusional little world along with the rest of those suffering some sort of mental illness.
    a healthy normative capacity for self questioning? growing as a person IN PUBLIC? shame on you!


    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I do understand that people who are into this site don't feel the dysfunctional cesspool nature of it because that's normal here. People who like the site probably don't notice it and/or aren't bothered by it due to experiencing it as normal and unremarkable. But from the POV of someone like me who is used to using type/function information to achieve ongoing positive results in mutual understanding and communication in a real life romantic relationship and various other personal connections/dialogues with my friends, this site is just chock-full of dysfunction.
    calling the dynamic on this site toxic because it doesn't compare to the same standards of a long term romantic relationship? talk about taking things out of context - ofcourse you and your SO aren't competing for moral superiority, that would be counter productive to your bond and most of anything that would make your relationship a positive experience to both of you which you both desire because i am guessing you care for each other and thus value each other's well being above or at least inline with your own and are naturally more inclined to be biased towards each other. you think that the lack of positive bias towards each other is the making of a toxic environment? even social groups that are cooperative in their shared interests (companies, organizations, military brigades, any sort of team) will still have competition and conflicts and employ both beneficial as well as counter productive strategies in the process, your complaining that a place that has no such interest does the same?

    what about your own contribution? do you think your strategy of analyzing the methodology on a diagnose yehgor's mental health is somehow distinct from that? if anything it bluntly demonstrates personal bias over the lacktherof (not to mention this expectation of positive bias towards each other) - what exactly is the difference between this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    1. I myself strongly encourage anyone seeking to understand this specific thread to place it in the larger context of yeghor's overall participation on this site. To my eyes, there's a rather clear pattern with multiple variations - all centering around the same basic goal: for yeghor to to "confirm" his various self-referential thought and belief structures by any means necessary and using various strategies to reject external realities that don't fit. My own time/energy/interest is limited, so I'll leave it to others to investigate and better articulate this bigger picture, if anyone is so inclined.


    and this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post


    So this thing about there being another point of view….I don’t know, it seems strange to have it repeatedly pointed out because that much seems obvious. It’s about priorities and whether or not someone else’s POV is worth investing my own time and effort into understanding. (I believe, for many of us) It isn’t about 'realizing' there are other points of view out there, that much is obviously true. It’s about figuring out which ones to invest in. Just because other points of view exist doesn’t mean it’s worth investing in them.

    ^ ^ ^ This this THIS! It seems to me that it is precisely because we are so aware of all the POVs around that we need to make these distinctions. Seems to me that this is Ni-dom (fluid shifting of perspective) + Fe-aux (orientation to external-to-us values material which can show up as various POVs).


    I wonder how often it is that people whose POV we decide isn't worth investing in don't want to accept that that is the actual situation, so generalize it into "You need to understand there are other POVs." I mean, I'm thinking it may be harder to accept that I'm extremely aware of many POVs but that I have decided based on what makes sense for me and my energy investment that their specific POV isn't worth the investment of energy and attention. It's not about Truth-Capital-T, its about "your POV is one among so very many, and right now I've decided it's not worth my time/energy/attention to focus deeply from the space of your particular POV." Yeah, I can see how it could be more palatable to make it about "INFJs don't see multiple POVs" than to take in the fact that yeah, we really do know that, we just aren't interested in yours in particular - not because it shines with special truth we can't accept, but because it just doesn't have utility value or a basis of reciprocal respect, or whatever it is that we've found works for us in the ongoing process of useful shifting of perspective as Ni-dom/Fe-aux. The first approach (framing it as about truth and our resistance to same) has some sort of attempted universal authority, the second doesn't give that kind of authority because it's more localized. So I can see the individual feel-good appeal of it. It's just not accurate.

    why aren't his "attempts to 'confirm' his various self-referential thought and belief structures by any means necessary and using various strategies to reject external realities that don't fit" simply him "choosing to not invest in perspectives that aren't worthy his energy & attention because they don't have the utility value for him based on what makes sense to him"? how is your choice to not invest in perspectives that don't have a utility value for you any different from strategically reject realities that don't fit what you want to get out of them?

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    why aren't his "attempts to 'confirm' his various self-referential thought and belief structures by any means necessary and using various strategies to reject external realities that don't fit" simply him "choosing to not invest in perspectives that aren't worthy his energy & attention because they don't have the utility value for him based on what makes sense to him"? how is your choice to not invest in perspectives that don't have a utility value for you any different from strategically reject realities that don't fit what you want to get out of them?
    If you really truly don't see a difference between those two things from the public data available on this site (eg, my comments and threads started, yeghor's comments and threads started), nothing I say will make a difference. I don't know if you actually don't see a difference, or if you're just using the words to try to make an argument because you don't like how I'm participating. I know it's probably important to find ways to dismiss what I'm saying about this site. I've even given some obvious excuses/reasons for you and others to do that, given how flat-out appalled and disgusted I am by this site and what passes for normal interaction in this place.

    IMO in the end, actual reality isn't a word game that goes to whoever argues it best, one way or another. It's just reality.

    That said, things will resonate differently for different people. If this site actually feels good and right and well to you as a place to interact with others, you and I are positioned very differently in the larger landscape. To me this site feels like a low-security mental ward where "normal" and "appropriate" interaction is implicitly collectively defined and practiced by the people in the ward in ways that honor and promote psychological dysfunction. As I see it, in this cultural context, people regularly support and even encourage each other's sicknesses and encourage and feed each others' psychological dramas and dysfunctions.

    I've done a little bit of research into the origins of this site. From what I understand - and my understanding here is limited but will mention this anyway - this site came t least in part from a desire at INTP Central to remove participation from non-INTPs into another arena, rather than from a positive desire to create a healthy community space to start with.

    I kind of wonder if, given its origin, this site was poised from the start to become something like what it is now. I don't know, but I think it's possible.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I don't know if you actually don't see a difference, or if you're just using the words to try to make an argument because you don't like how I'm participating.
    i can say with confidence that it's not the case: your ability to describe the internal experience of Ni is among the best i've seen, and possibly among the very few that fit both the standards of modern MBTI and the original description of Jung's cognitive functions (JCF) while actually expanding on it rather then mystifying it (magic Ni) or dismissing it (the intellectual's Si). by my standards that places your participation as an informative and potentially insightful contribution. so i can't really say whether i like the way you are participating, but i like the fact that you are.

    i also don't disagree with you regarding the dynamic you are describing - there are type competitions & type wars, there are type cliques, type of the day resturants, type fetish hookup and type fetish naysayers clubs, those who are into typology to say they are too good for typology.. i can go on, but the point is it's a diverse ecology of identity dynamics.

    what i am disagreeing is with your judgment of that behavior, with your choice to measure the interaction between people who don't know each other or know each other mainly through various conflicts in contrast with the interaction of lovers or deeply held friendships, and viewing that difference as toxic. i don't know of any online community that wouldn't be considered toxic under those standards (typology or otherwise), and very few real life ones.


    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I've done a little bit of research into the origins of this site. From what I understand - and my understanding here is limited but will mention this anyway - this site came t least in part from a desire at INTP Central to remove participation from non-INTPs into another arena, rather than from a positive desire to create a healthy community space to start with.

    I kind of wonder if, given its origin, this site was poised from the start to become something like what it is now. I don't know, but I think it's possible.
    i wasn't around yet and could be wrong, but my impression was that this was a reactionary site, not so much as an extension of INTPcentral but in defiance of their decision, and my general understanding is that haight and the management here disapproved of many of the conducts INTPcentral and wanted to create a balanced contrast to it. either way, i think your attributing intent to a symptom.


    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    If you really truly don't see a difference between those two things from the public data available on this site (eg, my comments and threads started, yeghor's comments and threads started), nothing I say will make a difference.
    you decide based on what makes sense to you and your energy that various points of view and the realities they describe you choose to reject because they are not worthy paying attention too or investing energy in because it doesn't don't have value for what works for you in your ongoing process.
    but he is using various strategies to determine which points of view and the realities they describe are worth rejecting because they don't hold value in his self-referential thought and belief structures which work and make sense for him in his own ongoing process.

    am i not seeing something? if there was an actual difference in the nature of the behavior, you can probably find a way to communicate what it is, at least vaguely. if there is no difference but the coincidence that one of them is you, then you are just comparing the state of being subject to a behavior with the state of being the agent willing the same behavior - the difference between your shell's inside and another shell's outside.

  9. #69
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Thanks, I've already seen those charts...

    An ExxP type would either be a Se or Ne-dom.. So it wouldn't be too far fetched to assume that an enneagram 1, being inversely related with enneagram 7s, hence ExxPs, would probably be an Si or Ni-dom...? So an IxxJ basically?
    1 and 7 are not inverses of each other on enneagram. The concept of inverse doesn't really exist within enneagram. 1's integrate to 7, and 7 dissentegrates to 1, so that's how they are connected. If they were inverses, then we'd expect all enneagram links to be inverses of some kind, and that's not how it is. I think it's meerly incidental that there is a connection between EP's and IJ's with 7's and 1's respectively. Even so, that relationship is a bit tight. From what I have seen elsewhere, 1's are correlated with J in general, it's not specefic to introverts, but there is a slight lean towards SJ's.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hive View Post
    Never seen an ISFJ or ENFJ identifying as type 1, strangely enough.
    Now you have.

    Most likely because there aren't too many ISFJ's or ENFJ's on typology forums.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
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  10. #70
    hypersane Hive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Now you have.

    Most likely because there aren't too many ISFJ's or ENFJ's on typology forums.


    Of course. It's not like I haven't seen you before. You're very much an "established member" in my mind, but sometimes the brain seems to forget even the most obvious information when you try to bring it to the surface, lol.
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