[Traditional Enneagram] Enneagram Type and MBTI function correlations...

[Evo]

INFJs' Fi (personal (internal) preferences and values that hold dear to their self) is quite small in volume than that of a Fi-dom or aux...

My understanding of how functions work differ a bit from what Dr.Mike says... A bit contrary to what Dr Mike says, INFJs receive external information mainly thru Fe and Se... and then analyze that information thru Ni and Ti... So the extraverted functions are inlets and outlets (filters) of incoming and outgoing information...and internal functions are how we make sense of that internalized information...

So INFJ scans the environment for how people are feeling, they are focusing more on how others feel rather than their own feelings... This is infact a representation of INFJs codependent nature, which compels them to focus more on others' needs thru their (the latter's) emotional status\distress (Fe = others' Fi) rather than their own (self Fi)...which is represented in MBTI by Fi<Fe...

Once that information is internalized, INFJs analyze it thru their Ni and Ti so as to understand it from an unemotional (depersonalized, detached) point of view and send back a proper response mostly thru their Fe... So whatever INFJs say back in return will be filtered out or modified by Fe... i.e. giving back to the other a socially or individually proper response...

So when interacting with others, INFJs are concentrating on not offending the other person and somehow alleviating the other person's distress (defusing the other person)...

IxFPs OTOH will be internalizing information thru their Se (body language) or Ne (potential meanings?), and analyzing it mostly thru their Fi, i.e. how that incoming information sits with their internal preferences and values, i.e. their "self identity", based on the emotions that information arouses in them, i.e. how that information makes them feel...

And then based on the emotion aroused they'll respond negatively or positively back in a way that is flavored thru their secondary function, Se or Ne... If it is something that hurts their "self" i.e. Fi, they'll either use negative body language (Se, frown, anger etc.) or use Ne to tell to the other how what they proposed might not be so... so as to convince both the other person and themselves that what they suggested is not "true", even though it actually may be... this is done to prevent the ego from getting hurt...

So, INFJs will express (filter) their thoughts in a way that will not offend the other individual... in a way that the other person can stomach...

Whereas Fi dom or aux will filter and express out their emotions (how they feel) thru Ne or Se... Edit: I think this gives them an ability to become good artists...

As Dr.Mike says in the video, INFJs are doing the analyzing thing from an abstract\impersonal view point i.e., thru Ne Ni, whereas xxFPs do that from a personal view point...so the girl in the video tells about how she also "feels" how other people around are feeling... INFJs OTOH understand what the other person may be feeling as a "cause and effect reasoning kinda thought" not something they feel inside themselves (unless it is something they've also felt before or sensitive about, i.e. something in the Fi reservoir, which is quite smaller in scale in comparison to that of xxFPs...)

She seems more expressive than others, perhaps she's an extravert but I still think she's an xxFP...

No, I think it's the other way around, I think enneagram 4s (and perhaps 3s) have a high likelihood of (mis)identifying with the INFJ type...

I see that I never responded to you after you wrote a lengthy description....maybe I didn't get notified? Either way...

I don't necessarily think there's a problem with what you described as the process in which the INFJ receives and provides information and all that jazz you wrote about Fe +Se, or Ni + Ti. But I do not believe that they use Fi.

Also, I am still not exactly sure what specific behaviors you see that make you type someone a certain way. At this point, I don't think it matters either. I can agree to disagree on that cause it's a matter of perception...which is subjective.

But in the chart I linked previously, it clearly shows that 4's are Most Commonly INFJ's and INFP's. And it also shows that 4's, are Less Commonly, but still typed as ISFP's and ENFP's. The rest of the chart shows Least Common for all other MBTI types. So do you not think that is correct?

Take a look at this: Enneagram and MBTI Combined - Renee Baron

I think this clearly shows how some of the functions can correlate with each enneatype.

From that very same book in which I linked you (Which I own) it says on pgs starting at 141-149, what each enneatype tends to lean towards.

One's -predominantly Judging
Two's - prominent feature is Feeling. They also tend toward Extroversion.
Three's - tend toward Extroversion and Judging
Four's - predominant features are Introversion and Feeling
Five's - predominant features are Introversion and Thinking
Six's - correlate with every MBTI type
Seven's tend toward Extroversion and Perceiving
Eights's tend toward Extroversion and Thinking
Nine's tend toward Introversion and Perceiving

Going by any of this...why wouldn't 4's identify as IXFX's?

 

[yeghor]

I see that I never responded to you after you wrote a lengthy description....maybe I didn't get notified? Either way...

I don't necessarily think there's a problem with what you described as the process in which the INFJ receives and provides information and all that jazz you wrote about Fe +Se, or Ni + Ti. But I do not believe that they use Fi.

Also, I am still not exactly sure what specific behaviors you see that make you type someone a certain way. At this point, I don't think it matters either. I can agree to disagree on that cause it's a matter of perception...which is subjective.

But in the chart I linked previously, it clearly shows that 4's are Most Commonly INFJ's and INFP's. And it also shows that 4's, are Less Commonly, but still typed as ISFP's and ENFP's. The rest of the chart shows Least Common for all other MBTI types. So do you not think that is correct?

Take a look at this: Enneagram and MBTI Combined - Renee Baron

I think this clearly shows how some of the functions can correlate with each enneatype.

From that very same book in which I linked you (Which I own) it says on pgs starting at 141-149, what each enneatype tends to lean towards.

One's -predominantly Judging
Two's - prominent feature is Feeling. They also tend toward Extroversion.
Three's - tend toward Extroversion and Judging
Four's - predominant features are Introversion and Feeling
Five's - predominant features are Introversion and Thinking
Six's - correlate with every MBTI type
Seven's tend toward Extroversion and Perceiving
Eights's tend toward Extroversion and Thinking
Nine's tend toward Introversion and Perceiving

Going by any of this...why wouldn't 4's identify as IXFX's?

Because I have a habit questioning external information even when it comes from experts.

My understanding is that enneagram 4 compulsion is a self-centeredness and individualist attitude, which is represented by Fi function in MBTI. So 4s cannot be IxFJs in that the latter are primarily focused/centered on and build their life around others rather than themselves, which doesn't fit with enneagram 4 compulsion.

I posted enneagram chart sonewhere showing each type's basic attitudes. I'll try to find it.

Edit: Here it is.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/the-nf-idyllic/69459-call-action-infjs-post2315959.html

 

[Evo]

Because I have a habit questioning external information even when it comes from experts.

And this to me, is the end of our discussion then. We again will have to agree to disagree.

My understanding is that enneagram 4 compulsion is a self-centeredness and individualist attitude, which is represented by Fi function in MBTI. So 4s cannot be IxFJs in that the latter are primarily focused/centered on and build their life around others rather than themselves, which doesn't fit with enneagram 4 compulsion.

I posted enneagram chart sonewhere showing each type's basic attitudes. I'll try to find it.

Where is your chart from?

And I interpret your explanation as "This doesn't fit with what my preconceived notion about how 4's act, therefore it isn't true."

Am I reading you wrong?

 

[yeghor]

And this to me, is the end of our discussion then. We again will have to agree to disagree.



Where is your chart from?

And I interpret your explanation as "This doesn't fit with what my preconceived notion about how 4's act, therefore it isn't true."

Am I reading you wrong?

I don't recall but the link in photos musy be traceable.

Partially, my preconceived notion is based on my understanding of ennragram type descriptions on the web.

 

[yeghor]

This is interesting. I've had a difficult time determining my socionics type because Fi is defined very differently in it, so much so that I can barely identify with it anymore. The overall type descriptions make the INFj (FiNe) sound like an enneagram 9 & the INFp (NiFe) sound like a 4, which further makes it confusing.

How would the INFJ (INFp) demonstrate unconscious Fi? Can you give a hypothetical situation?

I definitely see how MBTI INFJs falsely identify with Fi. There's a claim of individualism and blah blah blah when they seem pretty clearly guided by shared external concepts of good/bad/etc. To me, they seem to jump on the trend bandwagon for values, especially those deemed "progressive", but they claim they "think for themselves" because these ideas are not "traditional".

This is how I experience Fi mostly.

 

[Evo]

I don't recall but the link in photos musy be traceable.

yes, what photos?

Partially, my preconceived notion is based on my understanding of ennragram type descriptions on the web.

Ok. Well then ...I can't help but suggest that you may want to keep an open mind....

 

[yeghor]

yes, what photos?



Ok. Well then ...I can't help but suggest that you may want to keep an open mind....

Chart photos in the linked thread. Didn't you ask for their origin?

 

[atlascatcher]

Because I have a habit questioning external information even when it comes from experts.

My understanding is that enneagram 4 compulsion is a self-centeredness and individualist attitude, which is represented by Fi function in MBTI. So 4s cannot be IxFJs in that the latter are primarily focused/centered on and build their life around others rather than themselves, which doesn't fit with enneagram 4 compulsion.

I posted enneagram chart sonewhere showing each type's basic attitudes. I'll try to find it.

Edit: Here it is.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/the-nf-idyllic/69459-call-action-infjs-post2315959.html

I haven't read everything in the various threads related to your theory but I've been following the gist of it because it seems a little, well, absurd.

Your opening statement was "I've been reading enneagram descriptions"--Does this not strike you as a bit problematic? First you say you have been reading descriptions and just now you have said you have a habit of questioning external experts. Would it not make more sense to actually speak with those who identify as a certain enneagram, sans their MBTI type, to get a more rounded view of the manifestation of the nine types before trying to associate function use? While it is true fours can be self-centered and individualistic, that is not all they are. It is not like we go around thinking me, me, me, me all 24 hours of the day (maybe when extremely unhealthy). By your logic above, any type that is Fi dominant must be self-centered and individualistic, which is untrue in totality. The opposite is possible as well, any type can experience narcissism without being related to the enneagram.

 

[yeghor]

I haven't read everything in the various threads related to your theory but I've been following the gist of it because it seems a little, well, absurd.

Your opening statement was "I've been reading enneagram descriptions"--Does this not strike you as a bit problematic? First you say you have been reading descriptions and just now you have said you have a habit of questioning external experts. Would it not make more sense to actually speak with those who identify as a certain enneagram, sans their MBTI type, to get a more rounded view of the manifestation of the nine types before trying to associate function use? While it is true fours can be self-centered and individualistic, that is not all they are. It is not like we go around thinking me, me, me, me all 24 hours of the day (maybe when extremely unhealthy). By your logic above, any type that is Fi dominant must be self-centered and individualistic, which is untrue in totality. The opposite is possible as well, any type can experience narcissism without being related to the enneagram.

I'll give you an answer when you read the entire thread.

 

[atlascatcher]

I'll give you an answer when you read the entire thread.

I will let you know when I have done so!

 

[yeghor]

I will let you know when I have done so!

So long then

 

[atlascatcher]

So long then

On page 5, I forgot about all the YouTube videos you posted that was funny. Also had to refresh my knowledge of the superego. Another question for you to answer upon completion: Have you spoken to any other INFJ 1s? I have only met one other through my typology experiences and that is my father.

 

[yeghor]

On page 5, I forgot about all the YouTube videos you posted that was funny. Also had to refresh my knowledge of the superego. Another question for you to answer upon completion: Have you spoken to any other INFJ 1s? I have only met one other through my typology experiences and that is my father.

I've not met any other INFJs so far though my social circle is not that big.

I've got a friend that I fail to type. He reminds of atom ant. Hardworking introvert with feeler side. Might be ISFJ probably. Recently completed his poat-doc. Don't know his enneagram tyoe.

So no. Only online INFJs and INTJs.

 

[atlascatcher]

I've not met any other INFJs so far though my social circle is not that big.

I've got a friend that I fail to type. He reminds of atom ant. Hardworking introvert with feeler side. Might be ISFJ probably. Recently completed his poat-doc. Don't know his enneagram tyoe.

So no. Only online INFJs and INTJs.

On page 9.

I don't mean in real life necessarily, the Internet is fine. Any INFJ e1s through text-based or audio/video?

 

[yeghor]

On page 9.

I don't mean in real life necessarily, the Internet is fine. Any INFJ e1s through text-based or audio/video?

This INTJ http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...tion-analysis-simulatedworld-post2283092.html

Don't know his enneatype. Says he has percafe account. Might be checked from there.

This INFJ http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...unctions/67956-infj-nowadays-post2268847.html

Don't know her enneatype. Check what she says and try to discern her compulsions.

[MENTION=22089]Desiderium[/MENTION] lately. Don't know her enneatype or MBTI type but she feels like an INTJ to me.

This INFJ http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...unctions/67956-infj-nowadays-post2273934.html

Don't know her enneatype. Check what she says, perhaps her enneatype can be discernible.

Not any other I recall atm.

 

[atlascatcher]

This INTJ http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...tion-analysis-simulatedworld-post2283092.html

Don't know his enneatype. Says he has percafe account. Might be checked from there.

This INFJ http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...unctions/67956-infj-nowadays-post2268847.html

Don't know her enneatype. Check what she says and try to discern her compulsions.

[MENTION=22089]Desiderium[/MENTION] lately. Don't know her enneatype or MBTI type but she feels like an INTJ to me.

This INFJ http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...unctions/67956-infj-nowadays-post2273934.html

Don't know her enneatype. Check what she says, perhaps her enneatype can be discernible.

Not any other I recall atm.

Page 12. This is about where I stopped skimming save for pages 15-17. Too much back and forth without a lot of substance.

You didn't answer me directly though; so you've spoken to them like one-on-one or through forum correspondences?

First INFJ I agree with you--She's stated she's a 9 in her videos and I can totally see it. She looks/speaks exactly like another woman I know who I suspect is an INFJ 9. She's a singer in a folk band and a college advisor. Bucknell girl I had no idea when you first posted it and still don't she's not overly self expressive. She does remind me of Leanne Marshall and I saw a lot of people agree online she was INFJ. I have absolutely no idea on their enneatypes, which makes me want to label them as phobic 6s (can't figure them out, seem in the head triad but aren't 5s or 7s) but that would be in poor taste.

 

[yeghor]

Page 12. This is about where I stopped skimming save for pages 15-17. Too much back and forth without a lot of substance.

You didn't answer me directly though; so you've spoken to them like one-on-one or through forum correspondences?

First INFJ I agree with you--She's stated she's a 9 in her videos and I can totally see it. She looks/speaks exactly like another woman I know who I suspect is an INFJ 9. She's a singer in a folk band and a college advisor. Bucknell girl I had no idea when you first posted it and still don't she's not overly self expressive. She does remind me of Leanne Marshall and I saw a lot of people agree online she was INFJ. I have absolutely no idea on their enneatypes, which makes me want to label them as phobic 6s (can't figure them out, seem in the detached triad but aren't 5s or 7s) but that would be in poor taste.

No I don't know them in person. Just thru thwir videos.

 

[atlascatcher]

No I don't know them in person. Just thru thwir videos.

Yes or no question: You have or you have not spoken to another INFJ in a setting that is one-on-one, whether that be through private messaging on a forum, email correspondence, forum posts, Facebook messages, some other instant chat service, or video call?

 

[yeghor]

Yes or no question: You have or you have not spoken to another INFJ in a setting that is one-on-one, whether that be through private messaging on a forum, email correspondence, forum posts, Facebook messages, some other instant chat service, or video call?

Wtf, I said no already. Why are you acting like I am beating around the bush?

 

[atlascatcher]

Wtf, I said no already. Why are you acting like I am beating around the bush?

Why would I not be?

I ask you if you have spoken to any INFJ e1s. You said you've not met any in real life and have only spoken to INFJs and INTJs online so I ask you if you've spoken to any INFJ e1s online as I wasn't sure if you were saying you spoke to INFJ and INTJ 1s or simply those types. Then you list me a bunch of videos of people you think are INTJ or INFJ, which I took as unrelated to my initial question and then you said you haven't spoken to them online only watched their videos. Which made me wonder if you've actually talked to anyone you believe is INFJ other than reading their writings or video posts.

Sorry not trying to beat you up or anything. All I wanted to know is if you've had extensive interaction with INFJ e1s online or INFJs in general online of any enneatype other than reading a forum.