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  1. #161
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    INFJs' Fi (personal (internal) preferences and values that hold dear to their self) is quite small in volume than that of a Fi-dom or aux...

    My understanding of how functions work differ a bit from what Dr.Mike says... A bit contrary to what Dr Mike says, INFJs receive external information mainly thru Fe and Se... and then analyze that information thru Ni and Ti... So the extraverted functions are inlets and outlets (filters) of incoming and outgoing information...and internal functions are how we make sense of that internalized information...

    So INFJ scans the environment for how people are feeling, they are focusing more on how others feel rather than their own feelings... This is infact a representation of INFJs codependent nature, which compels them to focus more on others' needs thru their (the latter's) emotional status\distress (Fe = others' Fi) rather than their own (self Fi)...which is represented in MBTI by Fi<Fe...

    Once that information is internalized, INFJs analyze it thru their Ni and Ti so as to understand it from an unemotional (depersonalized, detached) point of view and send back a proper response mostly thru their Fe... So whatever INFJs say back in return will be filtered out or modified by Fe... i.e. giving back to the other a socially or individually proper response...

    So when interacting with others, INFJs are concentrating on not offending the other person and somehow alleviating the other person's distress (defusing the other person)...

    IxFPs OTOH will be internalizing information thru their Se (body language) or Ne (potential meanings?), and analyzing it mostly thru their Fi, i.e. how that incoming information sits with their internal preferences and values, i.e. their "self identity", based on the emotions that information arouses in them, i.e. how that information makes them feel...

    And then based on the emotion aroused they'll respond negatively or positively back in a way that is flavored thru their secondary function, Se or Ne... If it is something that hurts their "self" i.e. Fi, they'll either use negative body language (Se, frown, anger etc.) or use Ne to tell to the other how what they proposed might not be so... so as to convince both the other person and themselves that what they suggested is not "true", even though it actually may be... this is done to prevent the ego from getting hurt...

    So, INFJs will express (filter) their thoughts in a way that will not offend the other individual... in a way that the other person can stomach...

    Whereas Fi dom or aux will filter and express out their emotions (how they feel) thru Ne or Se... Edit: I think this gives them an ability to become good artists...

    As Dr.Mike says in the video, INFJs are doing the analyzing thing from an abstract\impersonal view point i.e., thru Ne Ni, whereas xxFPs do that from a personal view point...so the girl in the video tells about how she also "feels" how other people around are feeling... INFJs OTOH understand what the other person may be feeling as a "cause and effect reasoning kinda thought" not something they feel inside themselves (unless it is something they've also felt before or sensitive about, i.e. something in the Fi reservoir, which is quite smaller in scale in comparison to that of xxFPs...)

    She seems more expressive than others, perhaps she's an extravert but I still think she's an xxFP...
    No, I think it's the other way around, I think enneagram 4s (and perhaps 3s) have a high likelihood of (mis)identifying with the INFJ type...
    I see that I never responded to you after you wrote a lengthy description....maybe I didn't get notified? Either way...

    I don't necessarily think there's a problem with what you described as the process in which the INFJ receives and provides information and all that jazz you wrote about Fe +Se, or Ni + Ti. But I do not believe that they use Fi.

    Also, I am still not exactly sure what specific behaviors you see that make you type someone a certain way. At this point, I don't think it matters either. I can agree to disagree on that cause it's a matter of perception...which is subjective.

    But in the chart I linked previously, it clearly shows that 4's are Most Commonly INFJ's and INFP's. And it also shows that 4's, are Less Commonly, but still typed as ISFP's and ENFP's. The rest of the chart shows Least Common for all other MBTI types. So do you not think that is correct?

    Take a look at this: Enneagram and MBTI Combined - Renee Baron

    I think this clearly shows how some of the functions can correlate with each enneatype.

    From that very same book in which I linked you (Which I own) it says on pgs starting at 141-149, what each enneatype tends to lean towards.

    One's -predominantly Judging
    Two's - prominent feature is Feeling. They also tend toward Extroversion.
    Three's - tend toward Extroversion and Judging
    Four's - predominant features are Introversion and Feeling
    Five's - predominant features are Introversion and Thinking
    Six's - correlate with every MBTI type
    Seven's tend toward Extroversion and Perceiving
    Eights's tend toward Extroversion and Thinking
    Nine's tend toward Introversion and Perceiving

    Going by any of this...why wouldn't 4's identify as IXFX's?
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
    Unapologetically bonding in an uninhibited, propelled manner
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  2. #162
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    I see that I never responded to you after you wrote a lengthy description....maybe I didn't get notified? Either way...

    I don't necessarily think there's a problem with what you described as the process in which the INFJ receives and provides information and all that jazz you wrote about Fe +Se, or Ni + Ti. But I do not believe that they use Fi.

    Also, I am still not exactly sure what specific behaviors you see that make you type someone a certain way. At this point, I don't think it matters either. I can agree to disagree on that cause it's a matter of perception...which is subjective.

    But in the chart I linked previously, it clearly shows that 4's are Most Commonly INFJ's and INFP's. And it also shows that 4's, are Less Commonly, but still typed as ISFP's and ENFP's. The rest of the chart shows Least Common for all other MBTI types. So do you not think that is correct?

    Take a look at this: Enneagram and MBTI Combined - Renee Baron

    I think this clearly shows how some of the functions can correlate with each enneatype.

    From that very same book in which I linked you (Which I own) it says on pgs starting at 141-149, what each enneatype tends to lean towards.

    One's -predominantly Judging
    Two's - prominent feature is Feeling. They also tend toward Extroversion.
    Three's - tend toward Extroversion and Judging
    Four's - predominant features are Introversion and Feeling
    Five's - predominant features are Introversion and Thinking
    Six's - correlate with every MBTI type
    Seven's tend toward Extroversion and Perceiving
    Eights's tend toward Extroversion and Thinking
    Nine's tend toward Introversion and Perceiving

    Going by any of this...why wouldn't 4's identify as IXFX's?
    Because I have a habit questioning external information even when it comes from experts.

    My understanding is that enneagram 4 compulsion is a self-centeredness and individualist attitude, which is represented by Fi function in MBTI. So 4s cannot be IxFJs in that the latter are primarily focused/centered on and build their life around others rather than themselves, which doesn't fit with enneagram 4 compulsion.

    I posted enneagram chart sonewhere showing each type's basic attitudes. I'll try to find it.

    Edit: Here it is.

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...st2315959.html

  3. #163
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Because I have a habit questioning external information even when it comes from experts.
    And this to me, is the end of our discussion then. We again will have to agree to disagree.

    My understanding is that enneagram 4 compulsion is a self-centeredness and individualist attitude, which is represented by Fi function in MBTI. So 4s cannot be IxFJs in that the latter are primarily focused/centered on and build their life around others rather than themselves, which doesn't fit with enneagram 4 compulsion.

    I posted enneagram chart sonewhere showing each type's basic attitudes. I'll try to find it.
    Where is your chart from?

    And I interpret your explanation as "This doesn't fit with what my preconceived notion about how 4's act, therefore it isn't true."

    Am I reading you wrong?
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
    Unapologetically bonding in an uninhibited, propelled manner
    10w12

  4. #164
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    And this to me, is the end of our discussion then. We again will have to agree to disagree.



    Where is your chart from?

    And I interpret your explanation as "This doesn't fit with what my preconceived notion about how 4's act, therefore it isn't true."

    Am I reading you wrong?
    I don't recall but the link in photos musy be traceable.

    Partially, my preconceived notion is based on my understanding of ennragram type descriptions on the web.

  5. #165
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This is interesting. I've had a difficult time determining my socionics type because Fi is defined very differently in it, so much so that I can barely identify with it anymore. The overall type descriptions make the INFj (FiNe) sound like an enneagram 9 & the INFp (NiFe) sound like a 4, which further makes it confusing.

    How would the INFJ (INFp) demonstrate unconscious Fi? Can you give a hypothetical situation?

    I definitely see how MBTI INFJs falsely identify with Fi. There's a claim of individualism and blah blah blah when they seem pretty clearly guided by shared external concepts of good/bad/etc. To me, they seem to jump on the trend bandwagon for values, especially those deemed "progressive", but they claim they "think for themselves" because these ideas are not "traditional".
    This is how I experience Fi mostly.


  6. #166
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I don't recall but the link in photos musy be traceable.
    yes, what photos?

    Partially, my preconceived notion is based on my understanding of ennragram type descriptions on the web.
    Ok. Well then ...I can't help but suggest that you may want to keep an open mind....
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
    Unapologetically bonding in an uninhibited, propelled manner
    10w12

  7. #167
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    yes, what photos?



    Ok. Well then ...I can't help but suggest that you may want to keep an open mind....
    Chart photos in the linked thread. Didn't you ask for their origin?

  8. #168
    Member atlascatcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Because I have a habit questioning external information even when it comes from experts.

    My understanding is that enneagram 4 compulsion is a self-centeredness and individualist attitude, which is represented by Fi function in MBTI. So 4s cannot be IxFJs in that the latter are primarily focused/centered on and build their life around others rather than themselves, which doesn't fit with enneagram 4 compulsion.

    I posted enneagram chart sonewhere showing each type's basic attitudes. I'll try to find it.

    Edit: Here it is.

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...st2315959.html
    I haven't read everything in the various threads related to your theory but I've been following the gist of it because it seems a little, well, absurd.

    Your opening statement was "I've been reading enneagram descriptions"--Does this not strike you as a bit problematic? First you say you have been reading descriptions and just now you have said you have a habit of questioning external experts. Would it not make more sense to actually speak with those who identify as a certain enneagram, sans their MBTI type, to get a more rounded view of the manifestation of the nine types before trying to associate function use? While it is true fours can be self-centered and individualistic, that is not all they are. It is not like we go around thinking me, me, me, me all 24 hours of the day (maybe when extremely unhealthy). By your logic above, any type that is Fi dominant must be self-centered and individualistic, which is untrue in totality. The opposite is possible as well, any type can experience narcissism without being related to the enneagram.
    [ 4(69) "The Seeker"; IEI-2Ni (INFp) ]


  9. #169
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atlascatcher View Post
    I haven't read everything in the various threads related to your theory but I've been following the gist of it because it seems a little, well, absurd.

    Your opening statement was "I've been reading enneagram descriptions"--Does this not strike you as a bit problematic? First you say you have been reading descriptions and just now you have said you have a habit of questioning external experts. Would it not make more sense to actually speak with those who identify as a certain enneagram, sans their MBTI type, to get a more rounded view of the manifestation of the nine types before trying to associate function use? While it is true fours can be self-centered and individualistic, that is not all they are. It is not like we go around thinking me, me, me, me all 24 hours of the day (maybe when extremely unhealthy). By your logic above, any type that is Fi dominant must be self-centered and individualistic, which is untrue in totality. The opposite is possible as well, any type can experience narcissism without being related to the enneagram.
    I'll give you an answer when you read the entire thread.

  10. #170
    Member atlascatcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I'll give you an answer when you read the entire thread.
    I will let you know when I have done so!
    [ 4(69) "The Seeker"; IEI-2Ni (INFp) ]


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