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  1. #151
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I don't see it as a sinking ship; you do. But since I'm such a nice guy, would you like me to throw you overboard with a life jacket? Let me know.
    I have no opinion on this. Create a poll so I'll know what to think, like Obammy or Bill Clitown.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #152
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Argument:

    Fe = Caring even about how insignificant others (strangers) feel (about the individual?) (Global domain)

    Fi = Caring only about how significant others (intimate ones) feel (about the individual?) (Local domain)

    Te = Caring even about how insignificant others (strangers) think (about the individual?) (Global domain)

    Ti = Caring only about how significant others (intimate ones) think (about the individual?) (Local domain)

    Could this be expanded to S and N?

    Ne = Caring about external possibilities (Disregard for internal possibility, external fault finding?)

    Ni = Caring about internal possibilities (Disregard for external possibilities, obsession with internal possibility)

    Se = Caring about external reality (Disregard for internal reality)

    Si = Caring about internal reality (Disregard for or dismissal of external reality)

  3. #153
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||| 38%
    Type 2 Helpfulness |||||||||||||||| 62%
    Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||||||| 58%
    Type 4 Individualism |||||||||||||| 54%
    Type 5 Intellectualism |||||||||||||||| 66%
    Type 6 Security Focus |||||||||||| 46%
    Type 7 Adventurousness |||||||||||| 42%
    Type 8 Aggressiveness |||||| 22%
    Type 9 Calmness |||||||||||||||| 62%

    type score type behavior motivation
    5 16 I must be knowledgeable to survive.
    2 15 I must be helpful and caring to survive.
    9 15 I must maintain peace/calm to survive.
    3 14 I must be impressive and attractive to survive.
    4 13 I must be unique/different to survive.
    6 11 I must be secure and safe to survive.
    7 10 I must be fun and entertained to survive.
    1 9 I must be perfect and good to survive.
    8 5 I must be strong and in control to survive.

    Your main type is Type 5
    Your variant stacking is spsosx
    Your level of health is below average, i.e. unhealthy

    Your main type is which ever behavior you utilize most and/or prefer. Your variant reflects your scoring profile on all nine types: so = social variant (compliant, friendly), sx = sexual variant (assertive, intense), sp = self preservation variant (withdrawn, security seeking). Normally I see myself as a 6w5 though in terms of the whole anxiety and need to collect information to feel more certain about my positions.

  4. #154
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Turtle View Post
    Type 1 Perfectionism||||||||||38%
    Type 2Helpfulness||||||||||||||||62%
    Type 3Image Focus||||||||||||||58%
    Type 4Individualism||||||||||||||54%
    Type 5Intellectualism||||||||||||||||66%
    Type 6Security Focus||||||||||||46%
    Type 7Adventurousness||||||||||||42%
    Type 8Aggressiveness||||||22%
    Type 9Calmness||||||||||||||||62%

    typescoretype behavior motivation
    516 I must be knowledgeable to survive.
    215 I must be helpful and caring to survive.
    915 I must maintain peace/calm to survive.
    314 I must be impressive and attractive to survive.
    413 I must be unique/different to survive.
    611 I must be secure and safe to survive.
    710 I must be fun and entertained to survive.
    19 I must be perfect and good to survive.
    85 I must be strong and in control to survive.

    Your main type is Type 5
    Your variant stacking is spsosx
    Your level of health is below average, i.e. unhealthy

    Your main type is which ever behavior you utilize most and/or prefer. Your variant reflects your scoring profile on all nine types: so = social variant (compliant, friendly), sx = sexual variant (assertive, intense), sp = self preservation variant (withdrawn, security seeking). Normally I see myself as a 6w5 though in terms of the whole anxiety and need to collect information to feel more certain about my positions.
    5_6 (27) 2_4 (28) 9_8 (22) 7_1 (19)

    Fe>Ti>Si>Ne I am thinking xSFJ for you. I need to check your questionnaire for a more precise answer.

  5. #155
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Turtle View Post
    Type 1 Perfectionism||||||||||38%
    Type 2Helpfulness||||||||||||||||62%
    Type 3Image Focus||||||||||||||58%
    Type 4Individualism||||||||||||||54%
    Type 5Intellectualism||||||||||||||||66%
    Type 6Security Focus||||||||||||46%
    Type 7Adventurousness||||||||||||42%
    Type 8Aggressiveness||||||22%
    Type 9Calmness||||||||||||||||62%

    typescoretype behavior motivation
    516 I must be knowledgeable to survive.
    215 I must be helpful and caring to survive.
    915 I must maintain peace/calm to survive.
    314 I must be impressive and attractive to survive.
    413 I must be unique/different to survive.
    611 I must be secure and safe to survive.
    710 I must be fun and entertained to survive.
    19 I must be perfect and good to survive.
    85 I must be strong and in control to survive.

    Your main type is Type 5
    Your variant stacking is spsosx
    Your level of health is below average, i.e. unhealthy

    Your main type is which ever behavior you utilize most and/or prefer. Your variant reflects your scoring profile on all nine types: so = social variant (compliant, friendly), sx = sexual variant (assertive, intense), sp = self preservation variant (withdrawn, security seeking). Normally I see myself as a 6w5 though in terms of the whole anxiety and need to collect information to feel more certain about my positions.
    Having reviewed your questiınnaire I can say that you are an ISFJ.

    The test seem to yield too high 5 scores in my case as well, I don't know why.

  6. #156
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    INFJ's Fi is unconscious and is responsible for part of the INFJ's ulterior worldview in the Ni-Fi mechanism. There is false identification with the Fi function (as in relating to it as a conscious function) due to its unconscious presence in the INFJ's thoughts and decisions.

    In Socionics, the INFp's Fi is the Demonstrative Function, which is essentially the same information as the written above, with some added inter-type relation features. For instance, the Demonstrative Function of a type is that type's dual's PoLR, meaning that if an INFp's dual's (ESTp) Fi PoLR gets hit unfairly by any Fi Ego valuing type, then the INFp will usually respond by slamming the Fi Ego type with Fi Demonstrative, which is released negatively usually against threats and much more powerfully (due to the fact that it is A. An unconscious function, and B. treated as though it is useless when used consciously). The Beebe model in JCF describes the Senex/Witch function as an assertion of authority to counter another's use of Fi against the common goals of the IxFJ.

    Also, once-a-fucking-gain, the INFJ's most common types are Type 4, Type 5, and even Type 2 before Type 1 and cannot be specifically correlated directly with any type due to the nature of the Enneagram system, which works on motivations, fears, and drives rather than how the psyche functions. Sure, it can be extrapolated what certain JCF types want from functions such as the inferior, but these desires due not usually translate into Enneagram motivations or drives.
    This is interesting. I've had a difficult time determining my socionics type because Fi is defined very differently in it, so much so that I can barely identify with it anymore. The overall type descriptions make the INFj (FiNe) sound like an enneagram 9 & the INFp (NiFe) sound like a 4, which further makes it confusing.

    How would the INFJ (INFp) demonstrate unconscious Fi? Can you give a hypothetical situation?

    I definitely see how MBTI INFJs falsely identify with Fi. There's a claim of individualism and blah blah blah when they seem pretty clearly guided by shared external concepts of good/bad/etc. To me, they seem to jump on the trend bandwagon for values, especially those deemed "progressive", but they claim they "think for themselves" because these ideas are not "traditional".
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #157
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This is interesting. I've had a difficult time determining my socionics type because Fi is defined very differently in it, so much so that I can barely identify with it anymore. The overall type descriptions make the INFj (FiNe) sound like an enneagram 9 & the INFp (NiFe) sound like a 4, which further makes it confusing.

    How would the INFJ (INFp) demonstrate unconscious Fi? Can you give a hypothetical situation?

    I definitely see how MBTI INFJs falsely identify with Fi. There's a claim of individualism and blah blah blah when they seem pretty clearly guided by shared external concepts of good/bad/etc. To me, they seem to jump on the trend bandwagon for values, especially those deemed "progressive", but they claim they "think for themselves" because these ideas are not "traditional".
    I think that socionics INFj and INFp descriptions talk about MBTI INFJ and INFP respectively rather than the other way around as commonly accepted. I'd expect INFj to resemble enneagram 1 ratgher than 9 though.

    Also socionics Fi and Ni might be talking about MBTI Fe and Ne, respectively as well, which would explain the mismatch between the two systems.

    About the Fi, my shadow Fi gets inflamed from time to time so I have a basic feel of it.

    I'd expect IxFPs to have the same experience with Fe.

  8. #158
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This is interesting. I've had a difficult time determining my socionics type because Fi is defined very differently in it, so much so that I can barely identify with it anymore. The overall type descriptions make the INFj (FiNe) sound like an enneagram 9 & the INFp (NiFe) sound like a 4, which further makes it confusing.

    How would the INFJ (INFp) demonstrate unconscious Fi? Can you give a hypothetical situation?

    I definitely see how MBTI INFJs falsely identify with Fi. There's a claim of individualism and blah blah blah when they seem pretty clearly guided by shared external concepts of good/bad/etc. To me, they seem to jump on the trend bandwagon for values, especially those deemed "progressive", but they claim they "think for themselves" because these ideas are not "traditional".
    Perhaps the difference in the definitions lies in the fact that the Cognitive Function system we use for MBTI is anarchic, with varying definitions of functions based upon who you ask. The Socionics Fi provides a more concrete, static definition but, in my opinion, is too specific, and should be a bit more generalized and sapped of qualities that might apply to some Fi users and not to others (like with Hidden Agenda Fx).

    The INFp would usually utilize demonstrative Fi as a contingency for when your adherence to Creative Fe is questioned. Therefore, when someone questions your adherence to society's ethics (Fe) and values, your general reaction will be to individually reason out the ethics of the situation and engage in rationalizations as to why you align yourself with society's values. It is also worth noting that, based on the "dimenisonality of functions", that Demonstrative Fi is a stronger function than Creative Fe (4-dimensional over 3-dimensional function), meaning that the INFp will be better at using Fi than Fe, but will generally not care about it or only use it when it is needed, except in the formation of the sociotype's worldview, where it will play a major role.

    The Fe-Fi thing going on here generally seems like this:
    • INFp: I believe [insert ethical or social opinion that is accepted by the INFp because the group accepts it]
    • Fi-Valuer: Why do you believe that, though?
    • INFp: Well, [insert rationalizations and ethical reasoning on the spot, as the information had been accepted primarily because it was embodied by the group without necessarily having been filtered by Fi or personal opinions on the ethical/social subject]



    A more realistic situation involving a controversial ethical subject (a goldmine for finding F-egos):
    • INFp: I believe that abortion is wrong. (From this perspective, the opinion that abortion is wrong, when gathered with Fe, will generally be accepted because the society/community that the INFp is in or the group (s)he values believes that abortion is wrong)
    • Fi-Valuer: Why do you believe that?
    • INFp: (Realizing that it would not be appropriate to say that the reasoning is based off of the perspective of others and arguments of others) Well, it seems wrong to kill an unborn child because it is living creature, and it should not be put to death by another's choice. (Ethical rationalization to defend alignment with the group)



    This, therefore, is akin to being caught off guard when aligning yourself with a group value (almost like bandwagon) and having to mobilize your reasoning for doing so very quickly. You will realize that you are using the Demonstrative function when you are in a bit of a defensive posture in explaining things observed or accepted by the Creative Function. You can really notice this function when you are sort of building your argument for a position (in the case of rational Creative functions) on the fly, and when you are building rationalizations for the sole purpose of getting others to accept what you accept with your Creative Function, which adds a bit of a manipulative undertone.

    Also, Socionics type descriptions are abysmal. The better way to figure out your sociotype is to learn Model A and the various mechanics of the system.

    For those who adhere to the j/p switch for both systems, the INFx mistyping is easily understandable, even though arguments from the other camp include the infamous "They are nothing alike function-wise, it should be easy to tell them apart". Through Dimensionality of functions, we see that the two "strongest" functions (4-dimensional) of the INFx type (IEI and EII) are Fi and Ni, then followed by the 3-dimensional functions of Fe and Ne, then 2-d Si and Ti, then 1-d Te and Se. The only difference are the roles of the functions and their valuing/devaluing.

    Also, the above post mentions that Socionics Fi and Ni seem more like Fe and Ne, which contradicts one of the sole elements completely shared between the Jungian Anarchic System and Socionics, Extroversion/Introversion; ergo, the correlations would be forced to switch functions along the extroverted/introverted axis, and the Jungian type of INFP (FiNe) would correlate to ENFj (EIE).

  9. #159
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    Enneagram Test Results

    The Enneagram is a personality system which divides the entire human personality into nine behavioral tendencies, this is your score on each...

    Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||| 50%
    Type 2 Helpfulness |||||||||| 34%
    Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||||| 42%
    Type 4 Individualism |||||||||||||||||||| 90%
    Type 5 Intellectualism |||||||||||||||| 66%
    Type 6 Security Focus |||||||||||||||| 62%
    Type 7 Adventurousness |||||||||| 38%
    Type 8 Aggressiveness |||||||||||| 46%
    Type 9 Calmness |||||| 30%

    type score type behavior motivation
    4 22 I must be unique/different to survive.
    5 16 I must be knowledgeable to survive.
    6 15 I must be secure and safe to survive.
    1 12 I must be perfect and good to survive.
    8 11 I must be strong and in control to survive.
    3 10 I must be impressive and attractive to survive.
    7 9 I must be fun and entertained to survive.
    2 8 I must be helpful and caring to survive.
    9 7 I must maintain peace/calm to survive.

    Your main type is Type 4
    Your variant stacking is spsosx
    Your level of health is very low, i.e. very unhealthy

  10. #160
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleria View Post
    Enneagram Test Results

    The Enneagram is a personality system which divides the entire human personality into nine behavioral tendencies, this is your score on each...

    Type 1 Perfectionism||||||||||||50%
    Type 2Helpfulness||||||||||34%
    Type 3Image Focus||||||||||||42%
    Type 4Individualism||||||||||||||||||||90%
    Type 5Intellectualism||||||||||||||||66%
    Type 6Security Focus||||||||||||||||62%
    Type 7Adventurousness||||||||||38%
    Type 8Aggressiveness||||||||||||46%
    Type 9Calmness||||||30%

    typescoretype behavior motivation
    422 I must be unique/different to survive.
    516 I must be knowledgeable to survive.
    615 I must be secure and safe to survive.
    112 I must be perfect and good to survive.
    811 I must be strong and in control to survive.
    310 I must be impressive and attractive to survive.
    79 I must be fun and entertained to survive.
    28 I must be helpful and caring to survive.
    97 I must maintain peace/calm to survive.

    Your main type is Type 4
    Your variant stacking is spsosx
    Your level of health is very low, i.e. very unhealthy
    4_3 (32) 5_6 (31) 1_7 (21) 8_9 (18)

    Fi Ti Ni Se = inconclusive. Sorry.

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