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  1. #131
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    INFJ's Fi is unconscious and is responsible for part of the INFJ's ulterior worldview in the Ni-Fi mechanism. There is false identification with the Fi function (as in relating to it as a conscious function) due to its unconscious presence in the INFJ's thoughts and decisions.

    In Socionics, the INFp's Fi is the Demonstrative Function, which is essentially the same information as the written above, with some added inter-type relation features. For instance, the Demonstrative Function of a type is that type's dual's PoLR, meaning that if an INFp's dual's (ESTp) Fi PoLR gets hit unfairly by any Fi Ego valuing type, then the INFp will usually respond by slamming the Fi Ego type with Fi Demonstrative, which is released negatively usually against threats and much more powerfully (due to the fact that it is A. An unconscious function, and B. treated as though it is useless when used consciously). The Beebe model in JCF describes the Senex/Witch function as an assertion of authority to counter another's use of Fi against the common goals of the IxFJ.

    Also, once-a-fucking-gain, the INFJ's most common types are Type 4, Type 5, and even Type 2 before Type 1 and cannot be specifically correlated directly with any type due to the nature of the Enneagram system, which works on motivations, fears, and drives rather than how the psyche functions. Sure, it can be extrapolated what certain JCF types want from functions such as the inferior, but these desires due not usually translate into Enneagram motivations or drives.

  2. #132
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I think ^this part means INFJs' have shadow Fi function, that corresponds to the witch\senex function in Beebe's model... I have no idea how the dual and demonstrative function plays into all this... You also know my stance on my socionics type...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Sorry, can't see it happening for type 4... As for type 5, I think there still has to be 1 and 2 somewhere in the tritype... I'd even expect 1 to be the strongest...(which doesn't fit with my latest tritype results for instance)

    I don't know what in mbti and enneagram tests are causing this skewed outcome of 4s' ending up as INFJs... Perhaps 4s' tritypes might reveal more information about that...

  3. #133
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post

    What would be much more interesting at this point, frankly, would be for people to START writing INFJ e4, and INFJ e5, and INFJ e6, etc profiles.
    That would be awesome if people started writing these things.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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  4. #134
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I think ^this part means INFJs' have shadow Fi function, that corresponds to the witch\senex function in Beebe's model... I have no idea how the dual and demonstrative function plays into all this... You also know my stance on my socionics type...



    Sorry, can't see it happening for type 4... As for type 5, I think there still has to be 1 and 2 somewhere in the tritype... I'd even expect 1 to be the strongest...(which doesn't fit with my latest tritype results for instance)

    I don't know what in mbti and enneagram tests are causing this skewed outcome of 4s' ending up as INFJs... Perhaps 4s' tritypes might reveal more information about that...
    You can't see it happening because you don't want to see it happen since it goes against your isolated bubble of reasoning (careful, your Ji is showing). The amount of evidence that asserts INFJs have a strong if not dominating correlation to type 4 is greater than your little scrap of reasoning derived from subjective function assignments that are not based off of any empirical study* (not even going to bother with your inherently flawed Fruedian parts of the psyche model).

    *unlike the ones that are, such as Riso & Hudson, who loosely correlate Ni and Fi to Type 4.

    Oh, and congratulations on making the extremely hard connection that what I was talking about was shadow Fi. And for the record, I don't doubt your Socionics type.

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post

    These girls look like tertiary F's... The one on the right is dressed up like an IxFP but she sounds like an ISTJ... The other one, I've no idea about...
    The girl on the left is a very obvious Fi dom. I could see the girl on the right being an ENFP instead of an INFP- but she could be an INFP.

  6. #136
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    Where did you find the percentages? These charts are awesome!!!

  7. #137
    Senior Member Ghost's Avatar
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    On the "IxFPs talk about Fi and Te" video, Gillian, the girl on the right, is the INFP whose energy I relate to most in all Youtubeland. I'm surprised people here and on Youtube want to retype her.

  8. #138
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    UPDATE TO THE THEORETICAL CORRELATION BETWEEN MBTI FUNCTIONS AND ENNEAGRAM TYPES:

    1<-->7 represents the Ni-Ne spectrum.

    2 or 3<-->4 represent the Fe-Fi spectrum.

    5<-->6 represent the Ti-Te spectrum.

    8<-->9 represent the Se-Si spectrum.

    Function strengths can be read and identified thru enneagram results by summing up couple strengths (like type1+type7, type2 or type3 (whichever is stronger)+type4, type5+type6 and type8+type9).

    This system can give an overall glimpse as to a person's type, most likely thru the dominant and inferior functions determined thru enneagram test result, as described above.

  9. #139
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    Or, as a contrast to that ^^ approach - actual complex human reality might be used to consider and think about all of this as a way to learn and grow and understand self and others.

    Example: I'm an INFJ 6w5. Semi-recently, I've been - due to actual lived necessity - seeking to sort out what visceral-level internal responses in me come from my ennagram 6 and what visceral-level internal responses in me come from my INFJ Ni-served-by-Se information processing configuration. This is not abstract theoretical work for me - there are actual situations in my actual real life in which it is incredibly useful for me to know the difference so that I can correctly focus my energy and be as centered and clear as possible in how I move in the real world around me.

    One crucial difference I have discovered in myself is that the damage-based (yes, enneagram stuff is actually based on damage, while MBTI/cognitive function is not) activation of my ennagram 6 is - not surprisingly - "head"/thinky responses. In clear contrast, actual information from Ni-Se INFJ configuration is perceptual.

    More specifically in my case: When the 6 is doing its thing in me, I am at some level consciously thinking about what could happen, in my head, and that thinking processes causes and reinforces a visceral reaction in the rest of me. In contrast, my Ni-Se perception begins with a visceral response, a perception that isn't accessible at first to my thinking self/brain. The Ni/Ni-Se information is clearly about perception and not thinking/narrative, while the 6 stuff is very much about thinking and not about accurate perception at all. These are very different things, but without being able to differentiate them, I can get confused about what is information (INFJ/Ni-Se visceral perception), and what is damage-based (enneagram 6 visceral responses).

    Fortunately, I have semi-recently become able to differentiate to some extent, and I expect that my ability to tell the difference will continue to develop. I've tried out this differentiation a couple of times so far in actual real life situations, and it's been really useful. In order to navigate my world in a useful/not damaging way, I need to be able to trust my dominant perception on one hand, and not allow the enneagram 6 damage to run me on the other. Knowing the difference is incredibly useful for me.

    I sorted out the difference between these two things from the ground up without starting with concepts. But partway into the process, I found that knowing that 6 is a "head type" and that INFJ is perceiving-dominant helped me to more clearly pin down the clear differences between 6-based faux visceral "information" and INFJ real information. As a result of being able to approach this in a complex way with attention to my actual lived reality, I can now draw on resources that lessen the bad effects that the enneagram 6 damage can have on my life when it rears its head, while increasing my use of actual perceptual information from Ni/Ni-Se.

    ^ ^ @highlander, this is an example of the kind of thing I wish I could talk more about/delve into with others on this site. But persistent interactional dysfunction and type-bashing is such a norm at typologycentral that for me it's like, why bother? Using the above example: I see it as extremely unlikely that on this site there could be an actual in-depth intelligent respectful conversation about the intersection of INFJ cognitive functions and specific/various enneagram types - I think it would very likely turn into one of the typical type bashing threads that seem to be so popular here.

  10. #140
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    Or, as a contrast to that ^^ approach - actual complex human reality might be used to consider and think about all of this as a way to learn and grow and understand self and others.

    Example: I'm an INFJ 6w5. Semi-recently, I've been - due to actual lived necessity - seeking to sort out what visceral-level internal responses in me come from my ennagram 6 and what visceral-level internal responses in me come from my INFJ Ni-served-by-Se information processing configuration. This is not abstract theoretical work for me - there are actual situations in my actual real life in which it is incredibly useful for me to know the difference so that I can correctly focus my energy and be as centered and clear as possible in how I move in the real world around me.

    One crucial difference I have discovered in myself is that the damage-based (yes, enneagram stuff is actually based on damage, while MBTI/cognitive function is not) activation of my ennagram 6 is - not surprisingly - "head"/thinky responses. In clear contrast, actual information from Ni-Se INFJ configuration is perceptual.

    More specifically in my case: When the 6 is doing its thing in me, I am at some level consciously thinking about what could happen, in my head, and that thinking processes causes and reinforces a visceral reaction in the rest of me. In contrast, my Ni-Se perception begins with a visceral response, a perception that isn't accessible at first to my thinking self/brain. The Ni/Ni-Se information is clearly about perception and not thinking/narrative, while the 6 stuff is very much about thinking and not about accurate perception at all. These are very different things, but without being able to differentiate them, I can get confused about what is information (INFJ/Ni-Se visceral perception), and what is damage-based (enneagram 6 visceral responses).

    Fortunately, I have semi-recently become able to differentiate to some extent, and I expect that my ability to tell the difference will continue to develop. I've tried out this differentiation a couple of times so far in actual real life situations, and it's been really useful. In order to navigate my world in a useful/not damaging way, I need to be able to trust my dominant perception on one hand, and not allow the enneagram 6 damage to run me on the other. Knowing the difference is incredibly useful for me.

    I sorted out the difference between these two things from the ground up without starting with concepts. But partway into the process, I found that knowing that 6 is a "head type" and that INFJ is perceiving-dominant helped me to more clearly pin down the clear differences between 6-based faux visceral "information" and INFJ real information. As a result of being able to approach this in a complex way with attention to my actual lived reality, I can now draw on resources that lessen the bad effects that the enneagram 6 damage can have on my life when it rears its head, while increasing my use of actual perceptual information from Ni/Ni-Se.

    ^ ^ @highlander, this is an example of the kind of thing I wish I could talk more about/delve into with others on this site. But persistent interactional dysfunction and type-bashing is such a norm at typologycentral that for me it's like, why bother? Using the above example: I see it as extremely unlikely that on this site there could be an actual in-depth intelligent respectful conversation about the intersection of INFJ cognitive functions and specific/various enneagram types - I think it would very likely turn into one of the typical type bashing threads that seem to be so popular here.
    So what do you propose they should do Werebudgie?

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