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  1. #111
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Do you doubt and want to check the veracity of MBTI, socionics and enneagram typing systems? But you would need an independently verified reference for each type to do that... and perhaps map the brain for cognitive functions and enneagram types to find an average and make correlations between different systems based on those brain maps...

    In any case, you cannot verify the system using people that typed themselves with that system... So one has no option but to assume that any error in self-reported typing comes from the user, not the apparatus...

    Or discard the apparatus altogether...
    Yeah, no, you didn't understand my argument. The point is to use universal truths that are clear cut yet seemingly generalized in order to build the system itself. The system is a building, the construction workers are the individuals, and the universal truths are the blueprints.

  2. #112
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post

    It's like looking at a color spectrum and having to clearly mark off where "green" is. It's easy to point to the middle of the green area, but as you move towards other colors it becomes a little murkier. And yet, there is still value in the term green, even if there are bluish greens or greyish greens too.
    Thumbs down on Kelly, but I dig Chartreuse.

  3. #113
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Yeah, no, you didn't understand my argument. The point is to use universal truths that are clear cut yet seemingly generalized in order to build the system itself. The system is a building, the construction workers are the individuals, and the universal truths are the blueprints.
    Yeah but How can one find such a universal truth in this forum and than relate it to the existing systems? What will serve as the bridge to convert that truth/fact into the nomenclature and terminology of an existing system? Or do you propose that we should avandon existing systems and construct an entirely new one?

  4. #114
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    I have been thinking about to address @yehgor 's assertion that INFJs cannot be 4s or 5s because J's have a strong superego. I think there's a counter-argument to be made from the the MBTI side (drawing on Big Five studies showing that some facets of conscientiousness are mostly environmental), but I think there's at least as a strong a counter-argument to be made from the Enneagram side.

    While it's true that e1s are the most obviously aligned with their superegos, it doesn't necessarily follow that other enneagram types superegos are less powerful or experienced as smaller. For example, I'd argue that 4s and especially 5s defense mechanisms arise from dealing with harsh superegos that continually threaten to overwhelm the ego with negative feedback. So while 4s and 5s tend to identify with their egos, it is an ego very much under siege and which must direct most of its energy toward self defense.

    The 4s attempt to refute the internal negative feedback by attempting to see themselves as uniquely creative. This helps in multiple ways: it allows a sense of superiority toward those with lesser taste and creative ability, it allows external criticism to be written off as a lack of understanding by the mundanes, and it allows identification with a more beautiful image of who the 4 wishes they were. However, there remains a fear that the inner ugliness will eventually be seen and judged.

    The 5s attempt to refute the internal negative feedback via preparatory thought, learning and understanding. They can defend against internal judgments of incompetence and worthlessness by understanding and preparing so thoroughly, that they hope their eventual external works and actions will be unassailable. The 5s tend to feel smaller than the demands of the outside world, so sometimes (subconsciously) feel like they are squeezed between internal and external demands. They fear that their inadequacy will be exposed in the real world, and so fear to act.

    So, I'd say that 1s, 4s, 5s and all suffer from an overly harsh superego (sometimes called the "negative parent" in transactional analysis, or the "antilibinal impulse" in some other contexts) whose caustic criticisms exert undo influence. For the 1s, they've managed to more successfully identify with the superego, such that that sometimes can direct those judgments outward on the world around them, thereby identifying as the "good" crusader and feeling powerful and vindicated. However, 1s also suffer from the continual demands for perfection internally and their inability to meet them perfectly. (BTW, it's clear that types other than 1s, 4s, and 5s have superego issues, but I'm not addressing them here because I have less personal experience of those types.)


    4s and 5s, however, represent a failed attempt to identify with the superego. 4s and 5s attempt to align themselves with the negative criticisms of parents (or other authority figures) by accepting the superego's standards as valid, but end up as the target of those negative valuations, rather than the source. This leaves the ego relatively weak compared to the superego, since the ego has ceded most of the id's energy to fending off the attacks of the superego. The ego then becomes, in part, an energetically depleted bystander to the ongoing attacks of the superego on the id, as well as a victim of the attacks of the superego on the ego. Energy goes to fending off the attacks of the superego, and to keeping the emotional effects of the negative judgments out of consciousness.

    So, I'd say:

    1s: successfully identify with superego/critical parent, but negatively judge both the self and the outside world.

    4s: attempt to identify with superego against the id, but end up identifying with an unlovable ego image also under judgment by the superego.

    5s: attempt to identify with superego against the id, but end up identifying with an inadequate and incompetent ego image also under judgment by the superego.

    In any case, there's no reason why a 4 or 5 might not be an MBTI J or P. It's perfectly possible for a J or P child to feel judged as unlovable and/or inadequate and believe that judgment is justified. This seems mildly more likely to me to happen in an environment where one's MBTI preferences are under-valued, but there are a million ways for a child to be criticized, found wanting and feel rejected... and most of those ways have nothing to do with MBTI type at all.

  5. #115
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    While it's true that e1s are the most obviously aligned with their superegos, it doesn't necessarily follow that other enneagram types superegos are less powerful or experienced as smaller. For example, I'd argue that 4s and especially 5s defense mechanisms arise from dealing with harsh superegos that continually threaten to overwhelm the ego with negative feedback. So while 4s and 5s tend to identify with their egos, it is an ego very much under siege and which must direct most of its energy toward self defense.
    So if 4s' and 5s' egos are under siege...what's the situation for 1s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    The 4s attempt to refute the internal negative feedback by attempting to see themselves as uniquely creative. This helps in multiple ways: it allows a sense of superiority toward those with lesser taste and creative ability, it allows external criticism to be written off as a lack of understanding by the mundanes, and it allows identification with a more beautiful image of who the 4 wishes they were. However, there remains a fear that the inner ugliness will eventually be seen and judged.
    The mechanism you describe is Ne-Fi I guess...Ne conjures up alternate explanations for things that has a potential to affect the ego...it transforms external feedback into forms that the ego can stomach safely...however, I'd expect to find that more in 7s...reverse the mechanism and reverse the bolded arguments to find out how I used to feel...

    Ne and Se is related to "id"..."id" lies to the self and reaffirms the self that it's in the "right"..."id" conjures up excuses...Ni and Si OTOH is related to superego...the mechanism is reversed...superego berates the self that it's in the "wrong"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    The 5s attempt to refute the internal negative feedback via preparatory thought, learning and understanding. They can defend against internal judgments of incompetence and worthlessness by understanding and preparing so thoroughly, that they hope their eventual external works and actions will be unassailable. The 5s tend to feel smaller than the demands of the outside world, so sometimes (subconsciously) feel like they are squeezed between internal and external demands. They fear that their inadequacy will be exposed in the real world, and so fear to act.
    Don't know how this works...but:

    Thus, for their own security and self-esteem, Fives need to have at least one area in which they have a degree of expertise that will allow them to feel capable and connected with the world. Fives think, “I am going to find something that I can do really well, and then I will be able to meet the challenges of life. But I can’t have other things distracting me or getting in the way.” They therefore develop an intense focus on whatever they can master and feel secure about. It may be the world of mathematics, or the world of rock and roll, or classical music, or car mechanics, or horror and science fiction, or a world entirely created in their imagination. Not all Fives are scholars or Ph.Ds. But, depending on their intelligence and the resources available to them, they focus intensely on mastering something that has captured their interest.

    For better or worse, the areas that Fives explore do not depend on social validation; indeed, if others agree with their ideas too readily, Fives tend to fear that their ideas might be too conventional. History is full of famous Fives who overturned accepted ways of understanding or doing things (Darwin, Einstein, Nietzshce). Many more Fives, however, have become lost in the Byzantine complexities of their own thought processes, becoming merely eccentric and socially isolated.
    This sounds like pumping up one's self-esteem i.e. ego thru knowledge... And is clearly an introverted thinking function...It's not about superego... The defense here is pumping up ego...not suppressing and inhibiting it, which is what happens in 1s...

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    So, I'd say that 1s, 4s, 5s and all suffer from an overly harsh superego (sometimes called the "negative parent" in transactional analysis, or the "antilibinal impulse" in some other contexts) whose caustic criticisms exert undo influence. For the 1s, they've managed to more successfully identify with the superego, such that that sometimes can direct those judgments outward on the world around them, thereby identifying as the "good" crusader and feeling powerful and vindicated. However, 1s also suffer from the continual demands for perfection internally and their inability to meet them perfectly. (BTW, it's clear that types other than 1s, 4s, and 5s have superego issues, but I'm not addressing them here because I have less personal experience of those types.)
    What does it mean for 1s to identify with superego and 4s and 5s not identifying with it? It means 1s' ego yielded to the superego...In 1s superego>ego... in 4 and 5, ego>superego... actually if we assume that 4=Fi and 5=Ti and Fi and Ti as internally defined ego values...and Se and Ne as "id" mechanism in service of ego...IxxPs seem to have a big ego and a medium size id...where the latter is in service to the ego...the servant "id" seeks out opportunities for ego satisfaction...

    In 7s, Ne, i.e, "id" is stronger than ego, so ego is in service to the "id"..."id" wants to feel pleasure and gratification so it compels the ego to seek these out and not feel bad in the process..."id" has problems with respecting rules and boundaries...it's like a "beast"...


    OTOH, assuming 1s are IxxJs...1s have a strong superego, and a medium sized ego which is dependent on external feedback to feel good...and a weak "id", representing primal impulses suppressed by the super ego...hence the conscientousness and inhibition...

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    4s and 5s, however, represent a failed attempt to identify with the superego. 4s and 5s attempt to align themselves with the negative criticisms of parents (or other authority figures) by accepting the superego's standards as valid, but end up as the target of those negative valuations, rather than the source. This leaves the ego relatively weak compared to the superego, since the ego has ceded most of the id's energy to fending off the attacks of the superego. The ego then becomes, in part, an energetically depleted bystander to the ongoing attacks of the superego on the id, as well as a victim of the attacks of the superego on the ego. Energy goes to fending off the attacks of the superego, and to keeping the emotional effects of the negative judgments out of consciousness.
    That's not a failure but rather evidence that they have not yielded to the parental authority (i.e. superego)...1s OTOH have yielded to and internalized the parental authority (i.e. internal critic = superego)... So in 4s and 5s, ego>superego...


    So, I'd say:

    1s: successfully identify with superego/critical parent, but negatively judge both the self and the outside world.

    4s: attempt to identify with superego against the id, but end up identifying with an unlovable ego image also under judgment by the superego.

    5s: attempt to identify with superego against the id, but end up identifying with an inadequate and incompetent ego image also under judgment by the superego.
    Actually, based on my speculations, 4s and 5s have an "id" that is stronger than their "superego"...furthermore their strong ego is not dependent on external feedback and is therefore isolated...which implies that they don't care for others but just for a few significant close ones...

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    In any case, there's no reason why a 4 or 5 might not be an MBTI J or P. It's perfectly possible for a J or P child to feel judged as unlovable and/or inadequate and believe that judgment is justified. This seems mildly more likely to me to happen in an environment where one's MBTI preferences are under-valued, but there are a million ways for a child to be criticized, found wanting and feel rejected... and most of those ways have nothing to do with MBTI type at all.
    IxxJs are the superego dominant types so it's not possible for 4s and 5s to be IxxJs...
    Last edited by yeghor; 04-29-2014 at 03:44 PM. Reason: Edit:Bolded

  6. #116
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    IxxJs are the superego dominant types so it's not possible for 4s and 5s to be IxxJs...
    Yeah. That's why Riso & Hudson tied Ni to type 4 and Si to type 9, and there is a huge population of INFJ 4s and a swelling population of INTJ 5s, not to mention the ISTJ 5s as well. Clearly.

    Oh yeah, for the sensible people still in this thread,

    1, 2, 6 = Super-Ego ruled
    4, 5, 9 = Ego ruled
    3, 7, 8 = Id ruled

  7. #117
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Okay, most of that bounced right off. Let's try from another direction: let's look at the Freudian model of the psyche and make predictions about what we'd expect, then compare it to the mappings to enneagram types.


    The Id

    So, first up is the id. Let's start from wikipedia:

    The id (German: Es) is the unorganized part of the personality structure that contains a human's basic, instinctual drives. Id is the only component of personality that is present from birth. It is the source of our bodily needs, wants, desires, and impulses, particularly our sexual and aggressive drives. The id contains the libido, which is the primary source of instinctual force that is unresponsive to the demands of reality. The id acts according to the "pleasure principle"—the psychic force that motivates the tendency to seek immediate gratification of any impulse—defined as, seeking to avoid pain or unpleasure (not 'displeasure') aroused by increases in instinctual tension. If the mind was solely guided by the id, individuals would find it difficult to wait patiently at a restaurant, while feeling hungry, and would most likely grab food from neighbouring tables
    Okay, so let's make some predictions about someone dominated by the id:

    Energy Level: high (nothing restricting the flow of energy from the id)
    Adaptation to reality: low
    Ability to balance competing demands: low


    Okay, now let's do a check on the enneagram id types (3, 7, 8).

    Id Enneagram types

    Energy level: high; good fit
    Adaptation to reality: low; good fit for 7 & 8. Not a great fit for a 3s. 3s tend to be all too adaptive to their external reality, and cut off from what they really want and need.
    Ability to balance competing demands: low; a reasonably good fit.

    Okay... that wasn't perfect, but not bad. Next up, the ego.


    The Ego

    The ego (German: Ich)[18] acts according to the reality principle; i.e. it seeks to please the id's drive in realistic ways that will benefit in the long term rather than bring grief. At the same time, Freud concedes that as the ego "attempts to mediate between id and reality, it is often obliged to cloak the Ucs. [Unconscious] commands of the id with its own Pcs. [ Preconscious ] rationalizations, to conceal the id's conflicts with reality, to profess ... to be taking notice of reality even when the id has remained rigid and unyielding." The reality principle that operates the ego is a regulating mechanism that enables the individual to delay gratifying immediate needs and function effectively in the real world. An example would be to resist the urge to grab other people's belongings and buy them instead.

    [...]

    "it serves three severe masters ... the external world, the super-ego and the id."[20] Its task is to find a balance between primitive drives and reality while satisfying the id and super-ego. Its main concern is with the individual's safety and allows some of the id's desires to be expressed, but only when consequences of these actions are marginal. "Thus the ego, driven by the id, confined by the super-ego, repulsed by reality, struggles ... [in] bringing about harmony among the forces and influences working in and upon it,"
    Umm... huh. Seems like in the Freudian system, having a dominate ego = health and balance. That either doesn't really fit any enneagram type (at unhealthy levels) or fits every enneagram type (at high health levels). Plus, the ego has to deal with three masters, one of which isn't represented in our ennegram to Freudian psychic structures mapping at all. And it's the ego that does the coping and deploys defense mechanisms for every type. It's almost like these are two entirely different systems and finding corresponses is fun and intriguing, but not much more.

    Oh, well... I'm sure it'll all work out. So, what predictions would we make about the ego types:


    Energy Level: medium (manages to meet some of the needs of id, but constrains it as need)
    Adaptation to reality: extremely high
    Ability to balance competing demands: extremely high

    So now let's look at our enneagram ego types (4, 5, 9):

    Energy Level: low; not the medium predicted
    Adaptation to reality: low to high (rather than high as predicted); 4s and 5s tend to make minimal concessions to outside reality, and 9s tend to over-adapt to the needs of those around them, losing touch with their own needs. None of those sound ego-like at all.
    Ability to balance competing demands: low; not the high predicted. Like every ennegram type, balance only comes with health.


    Huh... that was a total mess. Healthiness really only resides in the ego in the Freudian model, and our predictions were way off. Well, let's struggle on to the last. The superego:


    The Superego

    The superego (German: Über-Ich) reflects the internalization of cultural rules, mainly taught by parents applying their guidance and influence. Freud developed his concept of the super-ego from an earlier combination of the ego ideal and the "special psychical agency which performs the task of seeing that narcissistic satisfaction from the ego ideal is ensured ... what we call our 'conscience'." For him "the installation of the super-ego can be described as a successful instance of identification with the parental agency," while as development proceeds "the super-ego also takes on the influence of those who have stepped into the place of parents — educators, teachers, people chosen as ideal models."
    Hmm... so in healthier people (whose development proceeds) the superego's demands are somewhat malleable, but it isn't itself governed by the reality principle (that's the ego).

    So, we'd predict someone dominated by the super ego to show:

    Energy Level: very low (since the superego stymies the id's energy flow at every turn)
    Adaptation to reality: low (for the unhealthy) to medium low (at higher health levels)
    Ability to balance competing demands: low, since the superego doesn't care about reality or the id.


    Now let's look at our superego types: (1, 2, 6)

    Energy level: medium to medium high; not as predicted. 1, 2 & 6s all are generally "doers" who generally don't struggle with low energy as a primary issue.
    Adaptation to reality: low (1s, if you squint) to medium (2, 6). 6s tend to look to external sources for certainty (or attack them, when couter-phobic). 1s can be overly rigid, so we could count that as a "low."
    Ability to balance competing demands: umm... 1s tend to be overly rigid, 2s tend to try to meet the needs of those around them at the expense of other things, 6s tend to fall in line with or against authority. So... low, or varies according to health level.



    So... that turned out to be a big muddle. Energy levels don't really work out. Adaption to reality really doesn't work out. In the Freudian system the only way out is for the ego to be in charge, and defense mechanisms are (often unhealthy) ways the ego copes with the competing demands. The enneagram is all about unhealthy defense mechanisms, all of which try to meet the conflicting demands between id, superego, and external reality in different ways. Some of them do, in fact, cede too much authority to the superego, id or to aspects of external reality. But rigidly mapping enneagram type to Freudian psychics structures (especially the ego) does a disservice both the Enneagram and the Freudian psychic model.

  8. #118
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    The mechanism you describe is Ne-Fi
    No it's not.

    http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/

    Please try educating yourself.
    7w6 - 2w3 - 8w7 sx/so


  9. #119
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Yeah. That's why Riso & Hudson tied Ni to type 4 and Si to type 9, and there is a huge population of INFJ 4s and a swelling population of INTJ 5s, not to mention the ISTJ 5s as well. Clearly.

    Oh yeah, for the sensible people still in this thread,

    1, 2, 6 = Super-Ego ruled
    4, 5, 9 = Ego ruled
    3, 7, 8 = Id ruled
    Based on the abovegiven, which "partially" fits with my speculation, IxxJs, who are superego dominant types, cannot have an ego type (i.e. 4, 5 and 9 in your quoted post) as their main type... They have to have a superego type as their main type...to represent a superego stronger than ego...

    And I still think 4=Fi and 5=Ti so can't see how a Fe-dom aux or Te-dom aux could be a 4 or 5... perhaps their secondary and tertiary enneagram types may be giving them a different flavor but doubt it...

    How did Riso-Hudson do that mapping?

  10. #120
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Yeah. That's why Riso & Hudson tied Ni to type 4 and Si to type 9, and there is a huge population of INFJ 4s and a swelling population of INTJ 5s, not to mention the ISTJ 5s as well. Clearly.

    Oh yeah, for the sensible people still in this thread,

    1, 2, 6 = Super-Ego ruled
    4, 5, 9 = Ego ruled
    3, 7, 8 = Id ruled
    Oh by the way... Another speculation:

    sx requires a strong "id"
    so requires a strong "ego"
    sp requires a strong "superego"

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