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  1. #101
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    @yeghor has consistently attempted to provide subjectively defined structure to explain things according to his/her mental framework rather than what is actually present in the environment.
    Basically, not enough Se.
    7w6 - 2w3 - 8w7 sx/so


  2. #102
    LadyLazarus
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Calm down...
    See those 3 enneatypes in my signature? They're all in the reactive triad, I don't have them all because I'm calm/ good at being calm.

    Seriously though, don't tell me what to do, I will be as calm as I please, this is the last time I will be able to say this in a civil fashion.

    That being said, I will now take my leave before I say something that will get me banned. Good day.

  3. #103
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chanaynay View Post
    Basically, not enough Se.
    Not enough Ni/Se axis. Essentially.

    Socionics, for instance, provides the descriptions of the irrationals vs the rationals as such:

    Irrational: What things are (Positivism), what things are not (Negativism)
    Rational: What things should be (Positivism), What things should not be (Negativism)

  4. #104
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Ironically what we have here is the irrationality of rationality. @yeghor has consistently attempted to provide subjectively defined structure to explain things according to his/her mental framework rather than what is actually present in the environment. Therefore, it is not surprising that, when kicked into overdrive such as right now, there is a desire to make things perfectly clear-cut and ruthlessly blocked, eliminating the individualized generalizations for collectivist specifications (oh, the oxymorons, let them flow).
    Oh...that's where you were getting at... you are missing that those are self-reported typings... there's a high possibility of human error (or self-bias)... you need to be able to verify the veracity of data somehow...

    Consider this as GPS positioning, if one or more of the satellites are sending faulty data and you don't have a verification system or a benchmark (a fixed reference point) for error correction, how will you know the reported position matches that of the actual position...? What if it is skewed by 100 m, what if 1000 m or more?

    One way to verify MBTI typing could be to check whether the self-reported MBTI type description sounds feasible in terms of the self-reported enneagram or socionics typing (if any)...i.e. crosschecking...

    If you have any other ideas to verify self-reported type data, I am open to suggestions... So building on what you said, the system has to be based on\depend upon not on available data but only the verified data...

  5. #105
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyLazarus View Post
    See those 3 enneatypes in my signature? They're all in the reactive triad, I don't have them all because I'm calm/ good at being calm.

    Seriously though, don't tell me what to do, I will be as calm as I please, this is the last time I will be able to say this in a civil fashion.

    That being said, I will now take my leave before I say something that will get me banned. Good day.
    Don't tell me what to do...

  6. #106
    LadyLazarus
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Don't tell me what to do...
    Lol.

    Bye-bye!

  7. #107
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Oh...that's where you were getting at... you are missing that those are self-reported typings... there's a high possibility of human error (or self-bias)... you need to be able to verify the veracity of data somehow...

    Consider this as GPS positioning, if one or more of the satellites are sending faulty data and you don't have a verification system or a benchmark (a fixed reference point) for error correction, how will you know the reported position matches that of the actual position...? What if it is skewed by 100 m, what if 1000 m or more?

    One way to verify MBTI typing could be to check whether the self-reported MBTI type description sounds feasible in terms of the self-reported enneagram or socionics typing (if any)...i.e. crosschecking...

    If you have any other ideas to verify self-reported type data, I am open to suggestions... So building on what you said, the system has to be based on\depend upon not on available data but only the verified data...
    But then we fall prey to specifying without adequate, veritable data and thus tip our scales in the favor of the system. (in regards to the bolded)

    The only way we can feasibly verify the data would be through the detailed brain-scans like Dario Nardi has attempted.

    One way to verify someone's veracity is to have them thrown into the algorithm that narrows things down through categories that are, themselves generalized. "Irrationality vs Rationality" "Thinking vs Feeling" "Sensing vs iNtuition" "Cognitive extroversion vs Cognitive introversion". But then we fall prey to having to specify those categories in order to get the data we need to base the categories and the entire system; therefore, tipping the scales in favor of the system again; unless, of course, you can reduce each of those dichotomies into universal truths that are A. Consistent with reality, and B. Easily applicable and unambigious. Jung initially tried this, and even stated such interesting assertions such as only Intuitives can introspect, and Sensors cannot. Socionics did so with irrationality and rationality by specifying them while still keeping them relatively generalized "Do you act when you feel like it or act without the opinions of your mood?".

  8. #108
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    One way to verify MBTI typing could be to check whether the self-reported MBTI type description sounds feasible in terms of the self-reported enneagram or socionics typing (if any)...i.e. crosschecking...
    MBTI descriptions do not carry enough weight for this process. They're generalizations attempting to cover all tendencies that come with the 4 letters and functional order.

    Oh...that's where you were getting at... you are missing that those are self-reported typings... there's a high possibility of human error (or self-bias)... you need to be able to verify the veracity of data somehow...
    Listen bub, when you're questioning whether the majority of the population is wrong or you're wrong, chances are it's most likely you.

    The question is, can an INFJ's basic fear be having no identity or personal significance? The obvious answer is yes. If you want to look at general tendencies, the question is can an INFJ be withdrawing, identity-focused, and melancholic? The obvious answer is still yes. And this can still go on if you swapped the 4 with 5 or 6.
    7w6 - 2w3 - 8w7 sx/so


  9. #109
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    But then we fall prey to specifying without adequate, veritable data and thus tip our scales in the favor of the system. (in regards to the bolded)

    The only way we can feasibly verify the data would be through the detailed brain-scans like Dario Nardi has attempted.

    One way to verify someone's veracity is to have them thrown into the algorithm that narrows things down through categories that are, themselves generalized. "Irrationality vs Rationality" "Thinking vs Feeling" "Sensing vs iNtuition" "Cognitive extroversion vs Cognitive introversion". But then we fall prey to having to specify those categories in order to get the data we need to base the categories and the entire system; therefore, tipping the scales in favor of the system again; unless, of course, you can reduce each of those dichotomies into universal truths that are A. Consistent with reality, and B. Easily applicable and unambigious. Jung initially tried this, and even stated such interesting assertions such as only Intuitives can introspect, and Sensors cannot. Socionics did so with irrationality and rationality by specifying them while still keeping them relatively generalized "Do you act when you feel like it or act without the opinions of your mood?".
    Do you doubt and want to check the veracity of MBTI, socionics and enneagram typing systems? But you would need an independently verified reference for each type to do that... and perhaps map the brain for cognitive functions and enneagram types to find an average and make correlations between different systems based on those brain maps...

    In any case, you cannot verify the system using people that typed themselves with that system... So one has no option but to assume that any error in self-reported typing comes from the user, not the apparatus...

    Or discard the apparatus altogether...

  10. #110
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I understand that but as far as MBTI goes, which is what this forum is based upon, this is the definition of humankind...:



    Problem arises when someone claims to be one color but radiates more like another... This is an inconsistency in the system... Thus, either the system itself is flawed or the color itself is wrong...

    If colors are incorrectly labeled, how could one learn about the details of that specific color by interaction? You may think you are learning about green, which may in fact be yellow...distorting the perception about the entire system...

    Do you see this as a problem...? If yes, how to alleviate it?
    Yes, that diagram is exactly what MBTI is attempting to do. And it does so in very gross and imperfect terms. There are many more dimensions to humanity than just MBTI type.

    People on the forum may mistype themselves, it is true. Or you could be seeing only one side of the person from your interactions with them in an online forum. Perhaps s/he isn't the classic example of that type, but has determined it to be most accurate compared to all the other types. I don't see why some people couldn't have characteristics of two distinct types and decide to go with the one that "fits" better overall.

    I can imagine that it could be frustrating if people do not type themselves on here correctly. Or if people do not live up to your understanding of what you expect a type to be like.

    Peoples personalities and interaction styles are not so cut and dry. And it can only give you so much of the picture, as others have said.

    I think it is only a problem if you view MBTI as the be-all end-all... the solution is to try not to take it so seriously, just see it as one tool in understanding people, and an imprecise tool at that.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

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