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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    This is where things get a bit murky because, like I said, the Social instinct and the 3 have some cross-over. The things you describe here are very 3-like; 3s are good at spotting dynamics and know how to work them. OTOH having the Social instinct doesn't necessarily mean you're good at working such things; it just means you notice and care about them. For example, I'm a Social-dom and I'm shy, anti-social, and pretty socially awkward.

    If you are a 3, I would say it's unlikely that you're a Social-dom. The two combined simply reinforce each other and make a sort of uber-3 - which is not something that you would easily miss or be confused about.
    Yes, it's a characteristic strong enough to guide me in a specific direction, but it also can easily makes one confused between it existing due to type or dom. I think I have it down now.

    I wouldn't say I'm shy, anti-social or socially awkward though I'm sure that's how a lot of people see me. I'm picky and somewhat of a cultural snob, those are usually my reasons for not socializing and not fear of interaction. I have fear of letting people in, but I much enjoy social dynamics, they're mighty fun.

    Style Four: the Original Person

    A primary vulnerability of all human beings is the fear of being abandoned or rejected. Some personality theorists would say this is the primary human vulnerability. Being abandoned is certainly what a helpless infant and child fears most and this anxiety diminishes very little in adults. It is the area of vulnerability that FOURS are most acutely sensitive to. They are fearful of being left out or left behind and are hurt by feeling neglected, ignored, and uncared for.

    FOURS are also vulnerable to feeling flawed, defective, unwanted, and uninteresting. They report they are sensitive to being criticized about their style or taste and are hurt by any lack of recognition of their creativity.

    When these areas of vulnerability are breached, the FOURS’ maladaptive schemas are likely to arise.

    “I’m not special.”

    “I’m lacking, deficient, flawed, missing something.”

    “I’m not good enough.”

    “I’m not loved or noticed enough.”

    “I’m not worthy of being loved.”

    “I’m different.”

    “No one understands me.”

    “I have to go it alone.”


    “If I get what others have, I’ll find my real self.”

    “A special love will make me whole, complete, valuable.”

    Their defensive interpersonal style was established to protect them from being and feeling abandoned. If they fear they are about to be left behind, their self image that they are special and unique gets activated; their envy scans the environment and queries the mirror as to who is the fairest in the land; they repress their ordinariness in favor of becoming out of the ordinary, if not extraordinary. “If I’m special and impact your life in a memorable manner, you will never forget me.”

    The ego strategy that FOURS devise to keep themselves from being abandoned leads them to abandon their authentic self which is the real basis of their feeling lost, unnoticed, and unwanted. They miss themselves. FOURS often devalue and reject themselves before others have a chance to. Having left themselves behind, they must seek outside to complete themselves.

    As is the case with the “neurotic solutions” of other styles, the FOURS’ strategy of being very intense or very attached may paradoxically scare people away. Or they may reject others first before any suitors predictably abandon them. Tragically their defensive tactics frustrate their authentic desires to belong, to discover themselves, to be original, to be ordinary, and to feel connected to others.

    If FOURS remain moored to their essence when their primary vulnerability is threatened, they will be authentic and they can engage the essences of others and feel related. If they move to envy, they contact their false personalities and the false selves of others and feel lonely. Their adaptive self keeps them attuned to reality instead of to their fantasies, while their virtue of equanimity leads them to their commonness that relates FOURS to all other creatures. Ironically, what they fear most, being ordinary, brings them to what they desire most, being connected.
    That makes it so obvious to me I can't believe I let myself mix things up. Now I just have to get my tritype down.

    What I'm sure of is: Hear>4w3/Body>8w7 but as for Head, I can't decide on 5 or 6.
    Probably because type 5 overlaps with INTJ and 6 with sp, which is my second instinc.

  2. #52
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    Nailed it:

    468 is the most reactive and counter phobic type out there. Highly volatile, no bs archetype.

    *most reactive-468, 864, 648

    The 468 is constantly calling off truth as they see it and sees it as their business to warn people of the potential downfalls and pitfalls in the emotional and mental world. It's the type in each center that is "truth telling" and tends to be the most reactive, even hyperreactive. She said it's typically sexual subtype, but she's seen social too. There's a tendency to feel an acute sense of disappointment because their incredibly acuity at seeing the problems ahead or the potential pitfalls of any situation causes people to misunderstand their reactivity and emotionality.

    If you are 468, you are intuitive, inquisitive and direct. You want to be original, certain and straight-forward. You are highly sensitive, track inconsistencies and are like the ‘canary in the coal mine’ calling off unspoken agendas, motives and emotions. You are also very intense and can at times be rebellious and emotionally reactive. Your life mission is to identify what is insincere and not what it appears to be, and alert others of potential hazards. A whistleblower, you are happiest when you are in a position to help others from being misled. You can be so focused on what can go wrong and on potential hazards that you miss how controlling you become and your impact on others and what is truly important and meaningful.

    468...intensity

    where 468 push for a response while 459 move away.

    You have all three Immediate Responder Enneacards
    (Enneagram Types: 4, 6 & 8) in your Enneaspread.
    You see yourself as intense, responsive, challenging and instinctive. You avoid insincerity and people with hidden agendas. Like a canary in a coal mine, you are sensitive to what others miss. You tend to react strongly to pretense, seeking to call off the truth before moving forward.

    I was asked the differences between the 361, the 368 and the 369 tritypes. Since the question is which gut type is dominant. At a glance, it is most helpful to look at activity levels. The 361 is very industrious and busy doing to avoid anxiety, the 1 brings a need to do what is morally correct. The 368 is focused on fighting for justice, the 8 brings a need to overcome and prevail. The 369 is highly adaptable and focused on being in comfortable alignment with others.

    the 468 is a true challenger and truth teller. The 4 may be shy but this Tritype is very intense and reactive--quick to speak their mind. The 485 is the true intellectual that has strong opinions about their feelings and thoughts but less reactivity. Sexual instinct with 4 dominant makes both tritypes more intense. The 468, however, is more dutiful and feisty whereas the 458 is one of the tritypes that lives in their head researching and following their own muse.

    Each Enneagram Type has a trap, a hook so to speak. The trap for the 468 to believe that your identity is tied to what you name and to need others to acknowledge it or believe it. If you hold on to the higher truth of your intuitive insights rather than your feelings surrounding them, more and more, they will flow through you to the right person, at the right time. I have found the 468 to be at times one of the most challenging Tritypes but more importantly, by far one of the most sensitive, intuitive, compassionate and heroic.

    The 468 has a counter-phobic 6 and.... the 4 is counter-envious... as in...they hate being envious and try to contain their their negative emotions. The problem is that the 468 is impulsive and emotional....often confronting before they think about it.

    The 486 is much more assertive that the 416. The 461 tends to being very critical of themselves to avoid being criticized. This tritype is very particular The 416 hesitates and the 486 impulsively reacts. A perceived threat to the primary instinct triggers the tritype.

    4-6-8 - The Hot Head

    This type is characterize by their reactivity. The tend to initiate conflict and take offense easily. They me feel that everyone is out to get them.

    468 - Inquisitive and direct 4. Most rebellious, reactive and direct 4.

    I'm a 468. I'm direct, as I find this is the best way to communicate my feelings, or myself to others (being as sensitive as I am, I try my best to be compassionate, or not step anyone's toes while doing this. My mom says this makes me articulate). I feel confident in certain areas, but not so much in others (though I'd die if anyone knew that.) Others have told me I am funny, and seem tough (though I cry at the drop of the hat.) I'm a good judge of character, and am very intuitive. I can tell when people are dishonest or not how they want to seem, and it frustrates me when others do not see things from my perspective. If a friend undermines my judgment, I feel betrayed, and they seem disloyal. I find my biggest struggle is feeling hypersensitive. I can recognize when I'm being that way, but if something upsets me, it's often an incredibly overwhelming and powerful feeling that I feel I can't just put aside. At the time, I feel reacting is standing up for myself, but I later feel badly for hurting someone else.

    As a 468, I find it tough to be up all the time. I see the darkness, the shadow, that the emperor has no clothes, I see the truth behind the persona, the lie we tell collectively to avoid the pain underneath...

    468. As a 4, I don't like doing things. I like living things. So I try to find the things in which doing becomes living. It's wrting novels, short stories, writing and recording music. What I like best is listenning to the result when it's, beautiful, touching, complete and magical. I'm my geatest fan. But also love learning from people that have gone further than me, in reading or talk. Now I develop an other mode of doing where discipline is focused on. This is training. I love training to play or sing as perfectly. as I can. I relax, concentrate, leave eveything behind. It's energizing and brings clarity and purity. In this mode, 6 disapear, 4 stops self absobtion. 1 rules.
    I can't speak for other 486s, but I like ideas and the search for truth and meaning, which means I'm constantly searching for new information, constantly curious, and one train of thought leads to another. (I even speak in parenthetical notes!) However, I feel better about myself when I get up and do more physical tasks, such as doing artwork, gardening, organizing, or cooking. I also find that when it comes to my teaching career, I'm motivated more by calling than duty. The focus on reading and research in order to understand theoretical foundations, derive meaningful insights, and gain inspiration to share with students is my constant driving force. (i've got a big, strong 5 wing operating underground, too.)
    Had to bold everything, so true it is.

  3. #53
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    Nailed it:

    468 is the most reactive and counter phobic type out there. Highly volatile, no bs archetype.

    *most reactive-468, 864, 648

    The 468 is constantly calling off truth as they see it and sees it as their business to warn people of the potential downfalls and pitfalls in the emotional and mental world. It's the type in each center that is "truth telling" and tends to be the most reactive, even hyperreactive. She said it's typically sexual subtype, but she's seen social too. There's a tendency to feel an acute sense of disappointment because their incredibly acuity at seeing the problems ahead or the potential pitfalls of any situation causes people to misunderstand their reactivity and emotionality.

    If you are 468, you are intuitive, inquisitive and direct. You want to be original, certain and straight-forward. You are highly sensitive, track inconsistencies and are like the ‘canary in the coal mine’ calling off unspoken agendas, motives and emotions. You are also very intense and can at times be rebellious and emotionally reactive. Your life mission is to identify what is insincere and not what it appears to be, and alert others of potential hazards. A whistleblower, you are happiest when you are in a position to help others from being misled. You can be so focused on what can go wrong and on potential hazards that you miss how controlling you become and your impact on others and what is truly important and meaningful.

    468...intensity

    where 468 push for a response while 459 move away.

    You have all three Immediate Responder Enneacards
    (Enneagram Types: 4, 6 & 8) in your Enneaspread.
    You see yourself as intense, responsive, challenging and instinctive. You avoid insincerity and people with hidden agendas. Like a canary in a coal mine, you are sensitive to what others miss. You tend to react strongly to pretense, seeking to call off the truth before moving forward.

    I was asked the differences between the 361, the 368 and the 369 tritypes. Since the question is which gut type is dominant. At a glance, it is most helpful to look at activity levels. The 361 is very industrious and busy doing to avoid anxiety, the 1 brings a need to do what is morally correct. The 368 is focused on fighting for justice, the 8 brings a need to overcome and prevail. The 369 is highly adaptable and focused on being in comfortable alignment with others.

    the 468 is a true challenger and truth teller. The 4 may be shy but this Tritype is very intense and reactive--quick to speak their mind. The 485 is the true intellectual that has strong opinions about their feelings and thoughts but less reactivity. Sexual instinct with 4 dominant makes both tritypes more intense. The 468, however, is more dutiful and feisty whereas the 458 is one of the tritypes that lives in their head researching and following their own muse.

    Each Enneagram Type has a trap, a hook so to speak. The trap for the 468 to believe that your identity is tied to what you name and to need others to acknowledge it or believe it. If you hold on to the higher truth of your intuitive insights rather than your feelings surrounding them, more and more, they will flow through you to the right person, at the right time. I have found the 468 to be at times one of the most challenging Tritypes but more importantly, by far one of the most sensitive, intuitive, compassionate and heroic.

    The 468 has a counter-phobic 6 and.... the 4 is counter-envious... as in...they hate being envious and try to contain their their negative emotions. The problem is that the 468 is impulsive and emotional....often confronting before they think about it.

    The 486 is much more assertive that the 416. The 461 tends to being very critical of themselves to avoid being criticized. This tritype is very particular The 416 hesitates and the 486 impulsively reacts. A perceived threat to the primary instinct triggers the tritype.

    4-6-8 - The Hot Head

    This type is characterize by their reactivity. The tend to initiate conflict and take offense easily. They me feel that everyone is out to get them.

    468 - Inquisitive and direct 4. Most rebellious, reactive and direct 4.

    I'm a 468. I'm direct, as I find this is the best way to communicate my feelings, or myself to others (being as sensitive as I am, I try my best to be compassionate, or not step anyone's toes while doing this. My mom says this makes me articulate). I feel confident in certain areas, but not so much in others (though I'd die if anyone knew that.) Others have told me I am funny, and seem tough (though I cry at the drop of the hat.) I'm a good judge of character, and am very intuitive. I can tell when people are dishonest or not how they want to seem, and it frustrates me when others do not see things from my perspective. If a friend undermines my judgment, I feel betrayed, and they seem disloyal. I find my biggest struggle is feeling hypersensitive. I can recognize when I'm being that way, but if something upsets me, it's often an incredibly overwhelming and powerful feeling that I feel I can't just put aside. At the time, I feel reacting is standing up for myself, but I later feel badly for hurting someone else.

    As a 468, I find it tough to be up all the time. I see the darkness, the shadow, that the emperor has no clothes, I see the truth behind the persona, the lie we tell collectively to avoid the pain underneath...

    468. As a 4, I don't like doing things. I like living things. So I try to find the things in which doing becomes living. It's wrting novels, short stories, writing and recording music. What I like best is listenning to the result when it's, beautiful, touching, complete and magical. I'm my geatest fan. But also love learning from people that have gone further than me, in reading or talk. Now I develop an other mode of doing where discipline is focused on. This is training. I love training to play or sing as perfectly. as I can. I relax, concentrate, leave eveything behind. It's energizing and brings clarity and purity. In this mode, 6 disapear, 4 stops self absobtion. 1 rules.
    I can't speak for other 486s, but I like ideas and the search for truth and meaning, which means I'm constantly searching for new information, constantly curious, and one train of thought leads to another. (I even speak in parenthetical notes!) However, I feel better about myself when I get up and do more physical tasks, such as doing artwork, gardening, organizing, or cooking. I also find that when it comes to my teaching career, I'm motivated more by calling than duty. The focus on reading and research in order to understand theoretical foundations, derive meaningful insights, and gain inspiration to share with students is my constant driving force. (i've got a big, strong 5 wing operating underground, too.)
    Had to bold everything, so true it is.

  4. #54
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Look Alive_Sunshine View Post
    That makes it so obvious to me I can't believe I let myself mix things up. Now I just have to get my tritype down.

    What I'm sure of is: Hear>4w3/Body>8w7 but as for Head, I can't decide on 5 or 6.
    Probably because type 5 overlaps with INTJ and 6 with sp, which is my second instinc.
    OK but just to make it clear, if you can't strongly identify with the statement below (that was in the list you quoted), there's no way you can be a 4:

    “I’m lacking, deficient, flawed, missing something.”
    I can't tell you how crucial that is to 4-ness. It is the defining characteristic. It should been a voice that has been almost deafening inside your own head, for as long as you can remember.

    My number one criteria for evaluating if someone is a 4 is if they can identify with the shittiest, most unflattering parts of the type, because the positive traits are distracting. 4s have dark souls and can face the harsh aspects of themselves more than other types - besides it only hurts if it's true, right?

    If you can only feel connected to the pretension, the creativity, and the 'specialness', then you may have a 4 fix or wing, but it isn't your core type. Also, like I said, there are things you have said here that exist in total opposition to what 4s would say. You have to consider the core drives of the type too, not just the outward traits.

    BTW be careful when you post. You have a tendency to double post.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    OK but just to make it clear, if you can't strongly identify with the statement below (that was in the list you quoted), there's no way you can be a 4:



    I can't tell you how crucial that is to 4-ness. It is the defining characteristic. It should been a voice that has been almost deafening inside your own head, for as long as you can remember.

    My number one criteria for evaluating if someone is a 4 is if they can identify with the shittiest, most unflattering parts of the type, because the positive traits are distracting. 4s have dark souls and can face the harsh aspects of themselves more than other types - besides it only hurts if it's true, right?

    If you can only feel connected to the pretension, the creativity, and the 'specialness', then you may have a 4 fix or wing, but it isn't your core type. Also, like I said, there are things you have said here that exist in total opposition to what 4s would say. You have to consider the core drives of the type too, not just the outward traits.

    BTW be careful when you post. You have a tendency to double post.
    I understand why you'd highlight that and that's for sure the core "issue" of 4. And don't worry, it really isn't in my nature to ignore the darkest shittiest parts of myself, quite the opposite. I needed constant external positive feedback and reaffirmation for a looong time before I started to see and more importantly, believe I was normal and very capable. The thing is, neither 4's or any other Ennegram types need to stay in an unhealthy state to be a "true" this or that. The insecurities may never go away completely, but it's foolish to think that because they don't cripple us anymore and that we can function as normal human beings, that we are mistyped. It's just as easy to mix your types up if you insist in typing based on identification with the bad parts, because you could have a psychological issue that overlaps with a certain type fixation without being that type.

    As for affirming things "a 4 never would", you can't possibily expect an INTJ 4w3 to feel, think and act exactly like an INFP 4w5. xNFPs totally correlates to 4 to a point where it's usually one of the (if not the) first go to type when they start in the Enneagram. Would you say an xxTJ would jump into this ship willingy?

    But then again, you did say it was your #1 criteria and I can't agree on any type (either MBTI or Ennegram) defining characteristic to be a negative one. Is every person with fear of abandonment a 6? No. Every person addicted to attention a 3? No. Every person with control issues an 8? No.



    Yes, ma'am.

  6. #56
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Look Alive_Sunshine View Post
    I understand why you'd highlight that and that's for sure the core "issue" of 4. And don't worry, it really isn't in my nature to ignore the darkest shittiest parts of myself, quite the opposite. I needed constant external positive feedback and reaffirmation for a looong time before I started to see and more importantly, believe I was normal and very capable. The thing is, neither 4's or any other Ennegram types need to stay in an unhealthy state to be a "true" this or that. The insecurities may never go away completely, but it's foolish to think that because they don't cripple us anymore and that we can function as normal human beings, that we are mistyped. It's just as easy to mix your types up if you insist in typing based on identification with the bad parts, because you could have a psychological issue that overlaps with a certain type fixation without being that type.

    As for affirming things "a 4 never would", you can't possibily expect an INTJ 4w3 to feel, think and act exactly like an INFP 4w5. xNFPs totally correlates to 4 to a point where it's usually one of the (if not the) first go to type when they start in the Enneagram. Would you say an xxTJ would jump into this ship willingy?

    But then again, you did say it was your #1 criteria and I can't agree on any type (either MBTI or Ennegram) defining characteristic to be a negative one. Is every person with fear of abandonment a 6? No. Every person addicted to attention a 3? No. Every person with control issues an 8? No.



    Yes, ma'am.
    I see you don't like to be contradicted.

    Oh well, good luck to you...
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I see you don't like to be contradicted.

    Oh well, good luck to you...
    It takes one to know one.

    Good luck to you too.

  8. #58
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    @Southern Kross is right. That is the defining characteristic of four. Everything that a four does revolves around that idea. That said, social fours feel this more consciously and keenly than the other subtypes of four. I don't think I recognized that this defining characteristic is why I did what I did until I was in my upper twenties- it was very unconscious in me. My self pres instinct denied it and my sexual instinct liked to assure me that I was better than others. You should check out my self pres four thread. I'm going to post the sexual and social descriptions later today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    @Southern Kross is right. That is the defining characteristic of four. Everything that a four does revolves around that idea. That said, social fours feel this more consciously and keenly than the other subtypes of four. I don't think I recognized that this defining characteristic is why I did what I did until I was in my upper twenties- it was very unconscious in me. My self pres instinct denied it and my sexual instinct liked to assure me that I was better than others. You should check out my self pres four thread. I'm going to post the sexual and social descriptions later today.
    Ten days later reply but:

    Yes, you are right. I didn't get 4's central idea untill three days ago. Now that I do, I can't say that's it for me.

    My typing thread at PerC has taken off, but unfortunally a couple people were invited by another user without my permission and one proceeded to harass me. But we had some good exchanges there:http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-...4-5-8-a-2.html.

  10. #60
    Senior Member wildflower's Avatar
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    haven't read farther than the first page but you sound like a 3w4 to me. personally, i think it works best to pick your core enneagram type first and the wing and then do the whole stacking thing. it seems like starting with stacking gets people rather confused. jmo.

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