[Traditional Enneagram] Challenging the enneagram

[Mal12345]

Why is type 6 so paranoid?

Because 7 8 9.

Bah dum DUM.


Seriously, Enneagram is a catalog of common neuroses. Everyone has one. Figure out which one you have, and Enneagram can help you. Otherwise, it's going to look like numerology or other equally ridiculous approaches to self-understanding.

That's true of the Riso/Hudson enneagram, because they borrowed so much from the DSM.

 

[Eugene Watson VIII]

Why is type 6 so paranoid?

Because 7 8 9.

Bah dum DUM.


Seriously, Enneagram is a catalog of common neuroses. Everyone has one. Figure out which one you have, and Enneagram can help you. Otherwise, it's going to look like numerology or other equally ridiculous approaches to self-understanding.

Keep ye fingers out of me till, ye olde clocker.

But in all seriousness no one has really helped me understand why the enneagram is laid out the way it is, besides Mal, Octavarium and Sanjuro (to some degree). The enneagram itself still seems pretty arbitrary. The math behind it tells me that the integration and disintegration points move specifically and so the types have been placed like so. But they are placed in a way that there is one of each type from the Freudian and head/shame/heart triads and they somehow pick up the traits of the type either side of it. Maybe I should have been clearer, but why is it that you can't have a 2 with a 6 wing? The type 1 is also in the compliant triad, but you can't have a 2w6? A 2 can only either have compliance reinforced (2w1) or it's assertiveness reinforced (2w3), but why is it that some of the types have the option of either 2 wings with different flavours and some sides reinforce the main type?

I don't really have too much info from these three pages so I'm still interested in what the typology guru can come up with.

 

[uumlau]

There's a lot of random mysticism in it. On top of that, there's a lot of cruft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruft) that's accumulated due to lots of input from various sources trying to make sense of it.

Here's the parallel with MBTI. Neither MBTI nor Enneagram is about personality, per se. Rather, the personality descriptions of each derive from being correctly typed. But because most people don't start out with an understanding of their type (especially with any new typology they encounter), they're forced to work backwards, to take their personality and then use it to figure out their type. That works most of the time, but for a large fraction of cases, it doesn't work at all.

MBTI is a typology based on "how you think". Enneagram is a typology based on "how you react", or "coping mechanisms", or however you want to phrase it. There is a lot of correlation between the two, but the personality descriptions of each get in the way of typing. I'm a type 9 INTJ. I know this is true based on the bad patterns of a type 9. But personality-wise, many would be tempted to type me as a type 5, because I am a complete nerd, and nerds are almost always type 5s, because it's type 5s that are compulsive about accumulating knowledge/expertise. I am not, however, compulsive about it. By temperament, I am definitely a 9, averse to conflict, seeking to find mutual understanding, not personal understanding.

So forget all the weird mystical lines and arrows. Think in terms of what your worst habits are, your worst coping mechanisms. When you encounter problems in everyday life, what is your stupidest pattern of reaction? It's the pattern that works almost all of the time, but you keep on using it even when it doesn't work. In particular, it's the pattern you use when you don't otherwise know how to handle what you are facing. That's your Enneagram type. As Mal points out, Riso-Hudson maps it to the DSM. I don't know if it's a particularly accurate mapping between contexts, but it's additional information that conveys how the type reacts/responds. Interestingly, I didn't come to my conclusions due to the Riso-Hudson version, as that's more like a catalog. It was Helen Palmer's write-up that showed me what the foundation of the typology is, while Riso-Hudson effectively translates it into more modern psychological terminology. Palmer writes how one of the early 20th-century practitioners of Enneagram, Gurdjieff, would probe the weaknesses of others in order to determine their type. That was the key for me. Your Enneagram type is your weakness, not your strength. The personality associated with one's type is the mask put in place to protect that weakness. The rest of it, including the weird diagrams and nigh-numerological reasoning (the 1->4->2->8->5->7->1 is just the repeating decimal representation of 1/7), is extra fluff that is perhaps usefully descriptive, but not indicative of anything from a cause-effect point of view. I believe Riso-Hudson maps it to DSM precisely because it's related so strongly to psychological weaknesses/neuroses.

 

[Animal]

Enneagram is not an absolute truth. It is a tool. You are free to use it and discard it however you see fit. Question it, critique it, analyze it, however you see fit. Its worth is what you make it.

When people say "I don't believe in enneagram" I just laugh. Why do they need to "believe in" it? Like all concepts and theories, it exists because people created it and wrote books about it. Why not just figure out whether you're interested in it or not?

 

[Zarathustra]

Enneagram is not an absolute truth.

Are you absolutely certain of this?

It is a tool. You are free to use it and discard it however you see fit. Question it, critique it, analyze it, however you see fit.

This is true.

Its worth is what you make it.

This is not (necessarily).

Not if it has inherent worth.

When people say "I don't believe in enneagram" I just laugh.

As do I, but possibly for different reasons.

Why do they need to "believe in" it?

Well, it's hard to find use in something if you don't find it credible.

My experience with these people -- and I used to be one myself -- is that they don't know much at all about the enneagram.

I've even seen people who are hardcore into MBTI/Jungian typology who take a very dismissive stance on the enneagram.

It could just be an amazing coincidence, but the one quality I've noticed these people all share is an extreme ignorance of it.

You'd think such people would see the parallel between people ignorant of Jungian typology dismissing it and the same for the Enneagram, but human folly knows few bounds, and even those extremely versed in one system of typology apparently still have some level of self-awareness they could benefit from...

Like all concepts and theories, it exists because people created it and wrote books about it.

Did people create the concept of gravity? evolution? relativity?

Or did they discover them?

Why not just figure out whether you're interested in it or not?

I think the issue, as I pointed to above, is that some people are only interested if there seems to be some amount of (Systemic) truth to it.

As a 4EI, this would be less important to you (and your statement perfectly reflects what would be important to a 4EI [as well as an 8IE])

 

[uumlau]

Are you absolutely certain of this?

 

[Animal]

Are you absolutely certain of this?

Haha. I like that comeback. You're right - I'm not absolutely certain of it. I guess the point is that I don't need to be. I find the enneagram tremendously illuminating. I am not out to prove its validity or disprove its validity at this point, because I've seen how deeply it connects so many concepts. I've come up with my own interpretation of it with symbols and a whole artistic system using my personal symbols that I've developed through my life. I find it enlightening, and 'spiritual' in its own rite. But I still don't need to 'prove' anything.

I had a conversation with a 6 in person, about a month ago, in which I was explaining more about enneagram and she was skeptical of the whole system (though she did agree that her self-typing is 6, if the system is legit). The conversation went:

Her: What, to you, is absolute truth?
Me: My feelings. [stops, thinks about what I just said.] Wait, I… that just came out. Let me think about that for a minute. [Thinks longer]….. Yup, the only absolute truth to me is my feelings. My feelings just ARE. I explore them, I navigate them, I create an internal landscape of them.. but the basic, raw feeling just IS.

I don't know if this is a 4 thing or a Fi thing, but this is just how I work. I trust my feelings, and I have learned over time to trust my intuition more than "fact based logic" because it is quite on target, and it keeps proving itself to me over and over. Every time I follow my head instead of my gut/heart/intuition, I end up in the wrong place.

So asking me if I'm certain of something - I could lay out many thought-based, logical arguments about why it is or isn't valid, but that is irrelevant. It resonates on an emotional level, and helps me to navigate my psyche and that of others, and most importantly, to COMMUNICATE about it. So it doesn't matter to me about whether it's "true" or not but rather that I FEEL IT.

This is not (necessarily).

Not if it has inherent worth.

Fair point but I don't care about a lot of things that clearly have worth. For instance, I think science is great, and I do "believe" it in the sense that I understand why some things are true (gravity etc) .. but I don't have a science-mind. I don't have enough basic knowledge to question science, to navigate it, to grasp it. I've always been a top student but sucked at science for as long as I can remember , and even my parents who are both doctors, could not cure the problem. It's just not my forté. Interesting as it might be, and as much as I might enjoy reading articles, I don't steep myself in it because there are others who I am sure will do a much better job navigating those aspects of life.

So I'd say that I believe science has more inherent worth than anything I am good at - even arts, from some angles. It certainly has more worth than enneagram for the general population. But in the realm of my own psyche, it is more worthless because I can't navigate it, and I can't do anything with it that might be helpful to humanity or even to myself. So for me, it's more worthwhile to invest myself in enneagram study which helps me navigate humanity and ties together the type of concepts that I can understand and resonate with on an emotional level.

So the question is, is it worth investing the time to study, critique, analyze - for YOU? The argument of how much "inherent worth" it has is out of my hands, since I suck at math and I'm not good at science (thus I cannot lay out a map of the human mind to prove why it is or isn't worth it). I am not going to pose that argument, but simply state that the study has been worthwhile for me, and has helped me self-improve tremendously while therapists could not.

As do I, but possibly for different reasons.

Which reasons?

Well, it's hard to find use in something if you don't find it credible.

See above It's more about "resonating" with me personally and fitting into my psychic map than some objective view on credibility.

My experience with these people -- and I used to be one myself -- is that they don't know much at all about the enneagram.

I've even seen people who are hardcore into MBTI/Jungian typology who take a very dismissive stance on the enneagram.

It could just be an amazing coincidence, but the one quality I've noticed these people all share is an extreme ignorance about it.

You'd think such people would see the parallel between people ignorant of Jungian typology dismissing it and the same for the Enneagram...

But human folly knows few bounds, and even those versed in one system of typology apparently still have some self-awareness they could gain.

Haha. I can agree with you on all of this. To some degree I would say, "whatever works for you" - but if someone is arguing on a basis of credibility vs. lack of credibility, the idea of dismissing enneagram and 'accepting' MBTI does admittedly feel a bit shallow.

The person is interested in psychology and personality systems in the first plcae.. but they dismiss the one that reveals their deeper motives and fears?

Smells like weakness to me.

But of course, people have their reasons, and I respect that. As long as it doesn't affect me personally, their choice to discard ennegram does not bother me.

Did people create the concept of gravity? evolution? relativity?

Or did they discover them?

I do see your point.

If I were to go out on a limb I could make a case for enneagram being 'discovered,' though I don't think all of it has been fully unraveled yet. There is more there… but that is always how science and discovery works.

I could also make a case for it functioning like a religious text.. but , mayhaps I should shut my mouth.. :X

I think the issue, as I pointed to above, is that some people are only interested if there seems to be some amount of (Systemic) truth to it.

Yeah. For me it has systemic truth because it fits into my personal system.

As a 4EI, this would be less important to you (and your statement perfectly reflects what would be important to a 4EI [as well as an 8IE])

Sorry whats a EI or IE? you mean socionics? Why is it reversed with type 8? Why would this be less important to me or an 8?

 

[Mal12345]

Read it all, very interesting points. You have done well comparing 7 to gut types and 1 to thinking types, i thought that was especially interesting. I agree that it's not a well cut system, as I've been forever stuck between enneagram 9 and 4, and seem to behave more like a 9w4 than 9w8 or 9w1. I don't relate well to the hedonistic ways of wing 8, and seem to sentimental to have a 1 wing, though I see that in me more than an 8 wing. It seems the enneagram can't square in the exact essence of people as well as the MBTI can. MBTI is much less complicated so I suppose that's why it works better.

If you don't recognize yourself in either wing type, then you're not that type. Try 4 instead.

 

[small.wonder]

I'm with [MENTION=17911]Animal[/MENTION] on this stuff, it's a tool for emotional and spiritual growth-- all the numerology is interesting but ultimately seems pointless to me. The proof is in the pudding in my experience, which for me means in real life. I didn't believe the Enneagram was applicable until (first) it applied to me in a complex way, and then when it applied to others in the same way. I see the legitimacy of the Enneagram when I interact with people, never (since I started studying the system a little over two years ago) have I met a person who doesn't resonate with a type. The main reason for that, in my opinion, is because the Enneagram allows for far more variety and provides more deciding factors than other typology systems. Not only do these people fit, they relate experiences from their lives that are fitting with their type, motivations, integration/disintegration, core passion, the whole deal. Time and time again.

I have kept a spreadsheet for over a year containing the types of the people I know (mostly to see if my numbers would ring true with what I've read about the population dispersment of each type) and I've reached 116 people at this point. Some of them already knew their type, some of them looked at the material with me for an hour and typed right away, and some poured over that stuff for weeks going back and forth trying to decide (but eventually did). I'm still adding people, and they all fit. There is absolutely no need for wings of random types, I've been totally convinced by wading through real people that it all makes sense. Honestly, the only people I've met who cannot settle on type, are: 1) not really looking for truth because they are terrified to face their dark side 2) highly indecisive to the point of confusing themselves.

All of that said, a tool such as this cannot be an end all, be all thing. We use tools, they don't use us.

 

[Animal]

All of that said, a tool such as this cannot be an end all, be all thing. We use tools, they don't use us.

Well put.

 

[uumlau]

Well put.

Very Sphinx-like, a la the Mystery Men ...

The Sphinx: He who questions training only trains himself at asking questions.

The Sphinx: When you can balance a tack hammer on your head, you will head off your foes with a balanced attack.

The Sphinx: When you care what is outside, what is inside cares for you.

The Sphinx: To learn my teachings, I must first teach you how to learn.

...


Mr. Furious: Okay, am I the only one who finds these sayings just a little bit formulaic? "If you want to push something down, you have to pull it up. If you want to go left, you have to go right." It's...
The Sphinx: Your temper is very quick, my friend. But until you learn to master your rage...
Mr. Furious: ...your rage will become your master? That's what you were going to say. Right? Right?
The Sphinx: Not necessarily.​

 

[Animal]

Very Sphinx-like

Mayhap.

 

[Mal12345]

bump

 

[Mal12345]

1. The answer is found in a synthesis of Russian mysticism, numerology, astrology, music, and Eastern metaphysics.

Notice that the HZ numbers, numerologically, all add up to 9. 864 HZ is 8+6+4 numerologically, which = 18. 1+8 = 9.

The following was not written by me.


Posted - 03 Jun 2008 :

Most things like this (such as the Enneagram itself) are not the relevant geometry but are distortions of the relevant geometry meant to highlight some properties of the actual math. The 72 is the number of vertices in the E6 polytope, if you add the 6 axes to the 72 vertices you get the 78 tarot cards. If you add the 4 axes of F4 to the 48 vertices of F4 you get the 52 playing cards; if you add the 4 axes of D4 to the 24 vertices of D4 you get the 28 Chinese Astrology points. Chinese Astrology also has the 12 "internal" points which are the D3 vertices; the 12 are also the Enneagram plus a second law of 3 like some researchers have, the 12 D3 vertices being a Law of 7 hexagon with a law of 3 triangle above the hexagon and another law of 3 triangle below the hexagon. Chinese astrology divides its 28 points into four directions worth of an octave like 7.

Theosophical addition is kind of taking multiple digit numbers and turning them back into one digit numbers like df did with the HZ numbers, like 10=1+0=1, 11=1+1=2. Here this lets you count to 72 by repeating the numbers 1 through 9. 10=1, 11=2, 12=3, 13=4, 14=5, 15=6, 16=7, 17=8, 18=9, 19=10=1, 20=2, 21=3, etc. There's a nice one for powers of 2 using the law of 7 rearranged in the Celtic Enneagram order of 124875 since after 1,2,4,8, you have 16=7, 32=5, 64=10=1, 128=11=2, 256=13=4, 512=8, 1024=7, 2048=14=5, etc.

Music is more complicated as explained here:

"the 7 and 5 structures in music
correspond to different projections of the Witting polytope
from 8 real dimensions into lower dimensions.

In some sense, the 7-structures are related to the 24-cell
and therefore to the ordinary 4-dim subspace

while

the 5-structures are related to the 600-cell
and therefore to the Golden sqrt(5) 4-dim subspace

of the 8-dim Witting polytope.


From the 4(complex)-dim point of view,

the 7-structures are REAL
and
the 5-structures are IMAGINARY."

That Witting polytope is E8 which has 240 vertices and 8 axes and contains all that E6,F4,D4 and D3 stuff I mentioned before.

There's a pattern with the Fibonacci sequence on the outside which can give you the Enneagram's law of 7 and law of 3 also:



It has the Fibonacci sequence in the upper right quarter and the rest comes from opposite numbers adding to 9 and opposite parallel lines of numbers adding to 9. There are 24 outer points, the 24 D4 vertices.

The colors just seem to show besides the 12 pattern, the law of 3 and the law of 7 with the law of 7 broken in half (beginning with the 2 point as in 285-714).

edited to replace the broken link.