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  1. #21
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    my point is, I'm not the one reorienting it. it is the conventional Western view of 2 that is the reoriented one.
    Right, I understand that. I haven't done the research yet, so I have little opinion on its accuracy currently. However, if it is true that the current conventional Western view is inaccurate, what becomes of the 2s that are more accurately described by the Western view than the "older" view? Perhaps some stay 2s but on the fringe, while others become retyped as 6s and 9s?

    not 3: he lacks deceit and image manipulation skills
    not 8: he's a pussy and has no presence to him
    Lol, "he's a pussy". Fair enough. He's a huge baby when he's actually in danger. He could be a 6, alternatively, with a lot of bravado and not enough finesse. I'm still not seeing someone who openly repulses others and whose primary traits are cruelty and narcissism as immediately identifiable as a 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noon View Post
    If this is the Joff I think you guys are talking about, why is he not a 6?
    Yes, I could see that over 2, too.

  2. #22
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    Yeah definitely not e3. There's no image manipulation - @Elfboy doesn't even bother to angle the camera when he's chatting. He might check himself out in the frame once he sees himself, but he doesn't have the kind of pre-planned perfect camera setup for skyping that a 3 would. Well that's just one silly example anyway. This lack of moment to moment concern around his image (though he still cares about being good looking and desirable) rings much more e7 than e3.
    I agree with you in that I do not believe Elfboy is a 3. I'm merely commenting on this example which I know you acknowledged was 'silly.' It's just that I've known a few e3s in my time...and all of them were extremely down to earth, nothing to hide, bravely honest... (I've always gotten the sense from image types that is the image itself that allows them to be so incredibly authentic and revealing of their flaws and humanity. It's like a net under a tight-rope walker I suppose.) Think 'Oprah' and how many times we've seen her on international television...sweats, no make-up and in a foul mood.

    In contrast, I know an ENFP 7w6 so (no 3 fix) that would for sure be making sure that camera angle was perfect...that her hair and make-up and clothes were perfect. I do not see her as a vain individual but she definitely constructs an image. I believe she sees this as a sign of respect to others...And I feel it keeps her from accessing her pain "I look put together...people treat me as if I'm put-together = I am put together and subsequently have no issues, fears or pain that must be addressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chanaynay View Post
    I'm on board with @Animal after talking to @Elfboy on Skype for 5000 times (which needs to happen again soon btw!)

    To be fair though, your justification for E7 was kinda broad.



    ^All that could easily sound like an E9 too. I'm kinda starting to think @Starry is onto something actually...

    Yah, I see Elfboy as your standard 9w8. He's ambiverted like so many of the individuals on 3-6-9...and he clearly has some connection to 3. He's not manipulating an image but rather he's telling us who he is. He's constructing an identity with his words. It's just that his words don't line-up (for me in my opinion) with what I see and I always wonder if others feel the same. Perhaps I've been surrounded by aggressive, narcissistic people my whole life and subsequently I have some kind of unreasonable bias/understanding...but no matter how hard I try I see neither in Elfboy. I've seen what looks like attempts at aggression...but honestly I feel he is very reasonable and laid-back. I just don't get it (sorry though Elfboy.)

  3. #23
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    @Starry
    I know what you mean. I've known three core 3s well in my life and one is very camera-aware, she's a photographer and model and every angle always looks perfect. I can be like this too, not just about my image, but about any person's image.. or any photo I take of nature, because I am very aware of beauty. Even a picture of a dead cat bleeding out of its eyes will be angled just so; because that is how I see things, I have a natural eye for beauty. It's not about trying to impress.. i have an impulse for things to be beautiful. My room is beautiful with each item placed expressively and meaningfully. I don't even have any local friends since I moved here, so it's beautiful because that is what I want, not because it impresses anybody. I am known in any place I have lived for being that person who unpacked and set up their room or dorm room along with the wall hangings before even sleeping the first night. I *must* be surrounded by beauty and honest self-expression or I cannot be creative in my own space. So this personal expression includes being angled a certain way in the camera.

    I share this awareness the 3 who is a photographer. However, she is more concerned with how other people will view things. Her room at home is always a mess, but her awareness of beauty comes out almost exclusively in settings where other people will see it. I taught her photography & lent my camera & sneaked her into my college dark room when she was 15, and by the time she was 16 she kicked my ass at photography hands down and now she has this cultish kind of expression that is just soul-shaking. She's very gifted and she charges through one image after another, sticking with each lifestyle and expression of it for a few years, and then moving on to the next. She moves from one group of friends to the next, along with its accompanying style of dress and photos to express her ever-evolving views of the world. She leaves old friends, outfits and locations behind each time; though she often gets tattoos that end up collecting as marks of her past. The one thing consistent, is that everything she says and does, even openly, is about how it will be viewed. On facebook when quitting smoking she puts up a sexy photo of herself with a cig and writes, "I started smoking because I thought it looked cool, and then I kept doing it because it was a cool prop in photos," in essence. It's always about what it LOOKS like, not what it MEANS.

    The other 3 friends aren't like that, as much. They wouldn't leave old friends behind or notice their angle on skype. However both of them are extremely conscious of their presentation where it counts. One has vacillated between various images, sometimes an 'image of no image' and sometimes a specific image, whether it be a classy guy or a bohemian. He told me he asks himself every morning, "Who do I want to be today? What do I want to present to the world today?" I am not accusing him of being shallow - there's nothing shallow about him. He was self-aware enough to tell me this about himself. He is an artist, and supportive to his girlfriend, and down-to-earth, we've been friends for years, and he is one of the people in my life who has been MOST real with me, critical in a helpful way, honest about things I don't want to hear, tremendously attentive when I'm in need, and willing to ask for advice humbly when he needs it. But there is still image awareness.

    The other 3 I know is your textbook "rising through the ranks," brilliant, confident ambitious 3 who breaks down periodically because sometimes she asks herself, WHAT IS IT ALL FOR? She knows how to dress to pull off any role, sometimes 3 roles a day. She is 1-fixed and strives to be perfect in this presentation. But she has an extremely good brain, is overtly self-aware, and asks herself all the hard questions so she is sure that she's being honest with herself.


    With a 3, image-awareness is going to be part of it, any way you slice it. I would not call taht "shallow," I'd call it fucking brilliant. It's amazing to watch them express whatever they want, whenever they want. That is not at the exclusion of qualities like 'down to earth' 'honest' 'hard working' etc. I can also find 3s to be very fearful and panicky internally, and also very humble in a way, which is why the work ethic can be strong. They don't believe they deserve to be handed things, in general; it's more, 'I know I'm capable of achieving this if I strive." And all of the 3s I know would project that thought to others too; that anyone can achieve if they strive. All of them would beat themselves up for not striving enough. That's a sort of humility.

    But you can't take away their image awareness. It is there. Whether it manifests on Skype or not, is another thing, but @Elfboy doesn't really seem to have that level of awareness at alll.
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  4. #24
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Right, I understand that. I haven't done the research yet, so I have little opinion on its accuracy currently. However, if it is true that the current conventional Western view is inaccurate, what becomes of the 2s that are more accurately described by the Western view than the "older" view? Perhaps some stay 2s but on the fringe, while others become retyped as 6s and 9s?
    I think most are mistyped 6s, 9s and a few 1w2s (oddly enough, it seems more common for 2 to mistype as 3 than the other way around)


    Lol, "he's a pussy". Fair enough. He's a huge baby when he's actually in danger. He could be a 6, alternatively, with a lot of bravado and not enough finesse. I'm still not seeing someone who openly repulses others and whose primary traits are cruelty and narcissism as immediately identifiable as a 2.
    he's not immediately identifiable as 2 because
    - he is at the bottom of the levels of health for 2
    - Sp 2 is the countertype of 2 (much likes Sx 6). the unhealthy Sp 2s act like aggressive, spoiled children demanding the world give them everything they "deserve". this fits Joffrey to a tee
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  5. #25
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noon View Post
    If this is the Joff I think you guys are talking about, why is he not a 6?
    not cerebral, skeptical or analytical enough. 6s have more of an ability to detect BS and more awareness of danger
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    why don't you think so? of course, taking into account instinctual variant and type.

    i'm sure you know more about e3 than i do, so i'm genuinely curious about your thoughts on the subject.
    I think @Animal, @Riva, and @Elfboy himself gave the sort of rationale I'd give. I wish I could offer something above and beyond what they said, but

  7. #27
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    1s
    - more proud
    - less rigid, more aggressively idealistic
    - enjoys punishing/exacting justice side of morality (@EJCC describes 1s as "8s in chains". I think this is an apt description)


    Also:
    - Less puritanical
    - Less forgiving
    - Much more anxious
    - More sadistic when in 8-ish zone described above, and when focusing it outward; more masochistic when focusing it inward
    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    5s
    - more practical; less purely intellectual
    - more focused on physical resources
    - more power oriented
    Yes to bolded IME -- especially when 8 comes into play.

    Would also add:
    - More perfectionistic

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    6s
    - usually extremely argumentative
    - more vicious (even phobic 6s)
    - more intellectual
    - less loyal, more backstabbing
    - (when healthy) more heroic
    Re: the bolded. Something I've noticed with the 6 folks in my life is that they're extremely loyal until they're suddenly not. Not totally sure where they draw that line, but it's been pretty jarring whenever I've run into it. (My 1w2 loyalty-dropping is much more predictable: betray me, or otherwise betray the principles which drew me to you in the first place, and you'll lose both my loyalty and my respect.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    7s
    - more aggressive
    - more ambitious
    - less bubbly entertainer; more ambitious
    - less "the world is flowers and sunshine" more "the world has scarce resources and is not going to give me what I want, so I need to TAKE it!"
    This sounds incredibly self-pres? Possibly also heavy 6 wing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    8s
    - less magnanimous defender of the weak; more Dothraki barbarian
    - more controlling of others
    - in the average range: less "I don't mess with you if you don't mess with me" more genuinely sadistic
    Yes to bolded. Probably a natural consequence of the 8 power dynamic thing -- with control being a way to prove your power to yourself and to others.

    The sadism thing is interesting. I hear about it a lot but don't have any close 8 friends, so haven't seen it play out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    9s
    - less "conflict is bad", more "I don't have the energy for this..."
    - more quietly judgmental, constantly thinking "when is this guy gonna stfu...."
    - more "most people piss me off, I just don't say anything"
    So fucking accurate. Thought of many of my forum friends immediately...
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    So fucking accurate. Thought of many of my forum friends immediately...
    Haha yeah, I thought the 9 list was hilariously true, for me at least. On every single point. But I've been questioning my 9ness lately, courtesy @Starry, so IDK.

  9. #29
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    @EJCC
    - Much more anxious
    anxiety is more of an Sp 1 thing

    This sounds incredibly self-pres? Possibly also heavy 6 wing.
    heavy 6 wing? if anything, it sounded more heavy 8 wing to me :P
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  10. #30
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    anxiety is more of an Sp 1 thing
    That may be, but I'm sp-last and still relate to it. It's a natural consequence of the 1-ish hyperactive internal critic, and it gets even stronger when we're in 4 mode.

    I was actually just talking to someone about how another 1w2 we know seems to only be willing to express two emotions with any strength to speak of: Panic and rage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    heavy 6 wing? if anything, it sounded more heavy 8 wing to me :P
    The part about taking stuff from the world was what sounded 6-ish -- then again, I still confuse 8 with counterphobic 6 sometimes. (Re: behavior, not motivation.)
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