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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Ah, okay. Apologies. When you said "When we accuse others of making a superficial judgment we ourselves are making a superficial judgment. And that about not wanting to be associated with someone for such a reason... very superficial indeed.", I thought you were referring to my judgment of them.
    Sorry I actually was, because I didn't understand your reasons yet. I didn't mean you'd consciously think of it that way. But anyway, nevermind that now


    That's ok! My language was certainly not friendly. I guess it's the Te coming through.
    Well let's not blame anything here


    Yeah, that's fair. I still don't really understand why. The elements of it didn't even all connect - like what the insults were for. Or why she was telling them to me.
    I see what you mean. I've seen such cases myself :/


    Yeah, I know what you mean. Hard to judge a case without knowing the specifics. I guess I am betraying these people sort of but I guess when I "weigh" that against the other people in my life who are being nice and spreading kindness it seems "worth" it. Like... it's not betrayal because they were the one who chose to be hurtful, and it's my responsibility to protect the people I love. I think the Social 6 is supposed to have hangups with "duty", and I do. And when two "duties" clash... I choose the one I have more loyalty to, I guess. Tighter bonds.
    I see. I guess you give a chance to those people first anyway, and explain your stance, and not just simply cutting them out without further explanation.


    Yeah, I agree with you. I wish I knew. There's part of me that wants to see if I can strike the friendship back up, but to be honest I think it'd be more about curiosity than real kindness, and I think if I found out the reason and I didn't like it I'd probably ditch her again. So that seems kind of mean. Might just be better to leave it alone, I figure, unless the natural course of life dictates otherwise.
    That's interesting you'd think about the difference between curiosity and kindness. This is just my opinion but I feel that that's the sort of analysis that just creates unnecessary blaming of yourself. I referred to it earlier as "no one is a saint". So if the motives aren't pure that's acceptable because no one is perfect. I would still think that some of it is the "real kindness". Well you can see I'm pretty laid back about interpretation of such moral issues, more relative than absolute in my view. That's going off topic here though :p

  2. #72
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Sorry I actually was, because I didn't understand your reasons yet. I didn't mean you'd consciously think of it that way. But anyway, nevermind that now

    Well let's not blame anything here


    I see what you mean. I've seen such cases myself :/


    I see. I guess you give a chance to those people first anyway, and explain your stance, and not just simply cutting them out without further explanation.


    That's interesting you'd think about the difference between curiosity and kindness. This is just my opinion but I feel that that's the sort of analysis that just creates unnecessary blaming of yourself. I referred to it earlier as "no one is a saint". So if the motives aren't pure that's acceptable because no one is perfect. I would still think that some of it is the "real kindness". Well you can see I'm pretty laid back about interpretation of such moral issues, more relative than absolute in my view. That's going off topic here though :p
    Interesting though valaki. Thanks for your opinion. I've enjoyed this exchange with you. I like hearing others' reasoning.

  3. #73
    girl with a pretty smile Honor's Avatar
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    I think I'm too forgiving, but I'm becoming more pragmatic as I get older.
    RobertCalifornia: TL thinks im black
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  4. #74
    Musician Forever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I expect unforgiveness to manifest especially in ISFJs more than other types, but again that is a stereotype.

    I imagine:
    Fe: "Oh, hello again."
    Si: Sever contact with this person immediately. Don't you remember what happened last time, do you want to go through that experience again?
    Fe: *bullshit-disguise/better-things-to-do mode activated*
    I would imagine so, one of my greatest strengths is to forgive. I'm however not perfect in it unfortunately. When it comes to "at the moment" when I am with someone, I tend to think about the consequences in the future, and think about "is it really worth it?" In my point of view, what's the point of not forgiving if you find that they're not trying to offend you?

  5. #75
    girl with a pretty smile Honor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I expect unforgiveness to manifest especially in ISFJs more than other types, but again that is a stereotype.

    I imagine:
    Fe: "Oh, hello again."
    Si: Sever contact with this person immediately. Don't you remember what happened last time, do you want to go through that experience again?
    Fe: *bullshit-disguise/better-things-to-do mode activated*
    ^ really true for me
    RobertCalifornia: TL thinks im black
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    Hive: arent you
    SpankyMcfly: wait... you arent?

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  6. #76
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    I agree with the folks so far who have said that Si and/or enneagram 1 make for the least forgiving people (though clearly every type can have very (un)forgiving people).

    From an ESTJ 1 perspective: I relate 99% to what @skylights said earlier about character judgments:

    My take as an ENFP 6... is that while I might forgive someone for what they've done because I have fairly universal deep empathy... I might not want to have them back in my life. I think a lot of times it's character judgment and whether I feel like they're acting with love and kindness generally and what they did was an aberration, or if their outlook is hateful and their action was consistent with that outlook, in which case I'd prefer to avoid them.

    ...(insert example here)... And so... while I do not carry any anger... I also don't want to associate with someone who is ___.
    With the difference being that I would almost definitely still carry anger. I realized recently that I hold a whole lot of grudges, but repress 90% of them -- not entirely sure why, but probably to maintain a positive outlook on life and to be a "good" person.

    As far as I can tell, the times I have entirely forgiven people have been when they regretted what they did to me AND reversed the behavior that caused my grudge (not one or the other) -- or, when I found out after my grudge developed that they didn't know what they were doing/didn't know any better/there was a legitimate extenuating circumstance. Note that each of these two paths to forgiveness require a change in character judgment: either they were "bad" and improved, or they were enough out of control that "good" and "bad" cannot apply.
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  7. #77
    climb on Showbread's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honor View Post
    ^ really true for me
    Me too. I usually end up forgiving though, I think. Although, trust takes a while to be re-earned. Even if I have forgiven someone if the offense was something big it typically still changes my relationship with them.
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  8. #78
    Riva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misty View Post
    This hypocrisy leapt out at me as I read through the thread. I see myself as unforgiving, but noticed that I felt grated by posts of other people who claim to be the same way. At the core, forgiveness feels like a dignifying thing, and I leaned toward too forgiving as a schoolkid, but now something self-protective lies on top of that. It prompted reflection on how I interpret conflict situations.

    What I discovered was the imbalance is due to seeing others' transgressions in an overly self-absorbed light. When I am harmed, I focus on how it reflects on who I am. I am toxically averse to being that person who doesnt take responsibility for the course of their lives, so when something bad happens, my habit is to flee from that victim image and hold myself entirely responsible unless/until evidence proves otherwise. Rationally, most problems take two, but I assume that the other party's responsibility is their own business to calculate and process just like my part is mine. So, it's disproportinally about what I let happen, who I allowed under my skin, how I failed to foresee a hazard, what it all says about me. Fool me once, shame on me; fool me twice...happened a few times, never again.

    Looks like we cannot forgive anyone if we are unable to forgive ourselves. Definitely something to rethink in how I live.
    So if someone wrongs you you hold yourself responsible unless proven otherwise? I think this would be easier if it's a matter of emotional hurt.

    The latter part suggests that it could be related to any kind of unfairness. Anyway when it happens first you try to blame yourself for letting it happen (I don't even know how it is even possible but you did use the word habit somewhere) but if happens again you never forgive/let it happen again?

    For some reason I find it hard to keep up with most INFJ posts. Probably because they are usually long-winded. Then again long-winded INFP posts I can keep up with though I can't relate to them at all. Their justifications/explanations though make rational sense and I can relate to those.

    The justifications/explanations of INFJs doens't make much sense to me at all and I seldom can relate to them. Overall I can however tolerate/get along with INFJs more than with INFPs.

    Why on earth am I mentioning all this here?

  9. #79
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    So if someone wrongs you you hold yourself responsible unless proven otherwise? I think this would be easier if it's a matter of emotional hurt.

    The latter part suggests that it could be related to any kind of unfairness. Anyway when it happens first you try to blame yourself for letting it happen (I don't even know how it is even possible but you did use the word habit somewhere) but if happens again you never forgive/let it happen again?
    I was typing a response to this and quickly determined that you are right not to be able to follow it. You can't forgive or fail to forgive someone for something when you're loathe to hold them responsible, so we can take forgiveness off the table as a descriptor in that situation. A better one is avoidance. The worst came out in me around X person, so I don't want to get that close again. Could be not wanting to hurt them again, or more blatant self-service like not wanting to feel the shame of the situation again so badly that I'd freeze out everyone involved.

    My post was a description of a dysfunctional behavior, and those so often have a way of contradicting themselves to death. Good call.

    For some reason I find it hard to keep up with most INFJ posts. Probably because they are usually long-winded. Then again long-winded INFP posts I can keep up with though I can't relate to them at all. Their justifications/explanations though make rational sense and I can relate to those.

    The justifications/explanations of INFJs doens't make much sense to me at all and I seldom can relate to them. Overall I can however tolerate/get along with INFJs more than with INFPs.

    Why on earth am I mentioning all this here?
    Describing things clearly is also just a particular weakness of mine. Ask questions when you have them. This particular time, maybe I subconsciously didn't want to be understood because I was describing a process that is actually pretty selfish. Sometimes we do explain to the point that it defeats the purpose, and de-abstracting this one lays its nature properly bare. Thanks for prompting me to do that. It means more than a short-winded post would have you think.
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  10. #80
    Member Aurora James's Avatar
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    MBTI:
    Most Forgiving: Ne-doms and Se-doms
    Least Forgiving: Fi-doms, if you've seriously violated their values

    Enneagram:
    Most Forgiving: 2, 7, 9
    Least Forgiving: 1, 6, 8
    4w5 so/sp - 5w4 sx/so - 9w1 sp/sx
    Fi>Ne>Ni>Si>Ti >Fe>Te>Se
    Phlegmatic/Melancholic
    Sensitive
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