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  1. #61
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Maybe not completely forever but I think there may be truth to this.

    Si-doms tend to have very strong and very personal memories, which contributes in an inability to forgive.



    I'm a Ni+6 and am pretty forgiving so that doesn't seem right.



    I wonder if this is common to Fi-doms in general.

    I was mainly going for Ni-Fe combinations, I should have put that down instead of just 'Ni'.

    I said Type 6 due to their hatred/fear of betrayal, which I drew to mean that they would most likely be unforgiving to anyone who betrayed them.

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    My take as an ENFP 6... is that while I might forgive someone for what they've done because I have fairly universal deep empathy... I might not want to have them back in my life. I think a lot of times it's character judgment and whether I feel like they're acting with love and kindness generally and what they did was an aberration, or if their outlook is hateful and their action was consistent with that outlook, in which case I'd prefer to avoid them.

    • For example... I had a good high school friend who I met up with again during college... she's ENFP 4w3 sx/so or so/sx I think... and she was very insistent upon not being a lesbian in high school even though she was very openly flirty with girls. And when we met up, she was in a lesbian relationship. Which is a-okay with me, and I'm glad she found herself, and I understand the discovery process and stress of being different. But then she used that meeting as a platform to tell me about how uninformed the hetero majority is. Which would also be fine, except she grouped me in that uninformed majority without allowing me to speak to my own orientation or viewpoints. And she went on to insult my school and my friends. She spoke over me when I tried to make points to the contrary. And so... while I do not carry any anger... I also don't want to associate with someone who is making superficial judgments and touting herself as the misunderstood.
    • Another example... there was a girl at my work... ENFJ 6w7 sx/so I'm fairly sure... and she trained me, and we were on good terms. But then she went crusading against our manager - who wasn't being nice, but also wasn't doing all the things she said he was - and she would spend the day ranting and raving about me and our other coworkers for not joining her in lambasting him. And then she was flirting with another guy at work... but she was married with a child... and then it came out that she told her husband she wanted to split... and then she started dating the guy she was flirting with. And I love her husband, who is really patient, hardworking, and kind. So I have a really hard time interacting with her because I felt like she did her husband so dirty, and was unfair to our manager, and was unfair to everyone for making our jobs hard for not agreeing with her. And she still feels like she did the right thing.
    • But as a counterexample... a good friend of mine... who I talked about on here before, if anyone remembers. She treated my boyfriend like crap the first time they met for no clear reason - I did everything in my power to ensure it wasn't a 3rd wheel situation and I apologized later and tried to speak to her about it, but she wouldn't for months - so I decided to distance myself after that. But recently she invited both of us somewhere, so we went, and she was very congenial and friendly and everything went great. So I've reinvested in the friendship and am very happy about it.


    So I think the two forces in me at work are Fi character judgment and e6 cautiousness, with the judgment informing the cautiousness.

    That doesn't really answer the question, but I don't feel like I necessarily have a good answer. So, just data for the bank.

  3. #63
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I said Type 6 due to their hatred/fear of betrayal, which I drew to mean that they would most likely be unforgiving to anyone who betrayed them.
    Ok I see. Yes, if I am betrayed, it deeply upsets and disappoints me. Someone would have to screw me over in a way that it has a negative and lasting effect on my life in which case yes, I will be unlikely to ever trust them again and in some cases will never want to have anything to do with them again. These situations are rare but they do happen.

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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    [*]For example... I had a good high school friend who I met up with again during college... she's ENFP 4w3 sx/so or so/sx I think... and she was very insistent upon not being a lesbian in high school even though she was very openly flirty with girls. And when we met up, she was in a lesbian relationship. Which is a-okay with me, and I'm glad she found herself, and I understand the discovery process and stress of being different. But then she used that meeting as a platform to tell me about how uninformed the hetero majority is. Which would also be fine, except she grouped me in that uninformed majority without allowing me to speak to my own orientation or viewpoints. And she went on to insult my school and my friends. She spoke over me when I tried to make points to the contrary. And so... while I do not carry any anger... I also don't want to associate with someone who is making superficial judgments and touting herself as the misunderstood.
    When we accuse others of making a superficial judgment we ourselves are making a superficial judgment. And that about not wanting to be associated with someone for such a reason... very superficial indeed.


    [*]Another example... there was a girl at my work... ENFJ 6w7 sx/so I'm fairly sure... and she trained me, and we were on good terms. But then she went crusading against our manager - who wasn't being nice, but also wasn't doing all the things she said he was - and she would spend the day ranting and raving about me and our other coworkers for not joining her in lambasting him. And then she was flirting with another guy at work... but she was married with a child... and then it came out that she told her husband she wanted to split... and then she started dating the guy she was flirting with. And I love her husband, who is really patient, hardworking, and kind. So I have a really hard time interacting with her because I felt like she did her husband so dirty, and was unfair to our manager, and was unfair to everyone for making our jobs hard for not agreeing with her. And she still feels like she did the right thing.
    Have you ever tried to understand what her real problem was with the manager? And that husband... how was that relevant to your relationship with this girl? O_o In her place I would feel it's unfair treatment breaking a relationship just because of some completely unrelated thing. Nobody's a saint!


    Anyway, it was an interesting read about how Fi works... Still this sort of Fi stuff makes me mad and everything.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Huh? Is he into Enneagram? Lol what faulty logic there. Even if you were a 4... bullshit reasoning :p
    Yep, he's into enneagram. He's 854, and that stuff they say about this tritype building maps of what makes people "tick", then being blind to new information is actually true in his case. Yeah, it's a faulty map held together with faulty logic, at least in my case.

  6. #66
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    I'm usually forgiving unless I'm given a legitimate reason not to be..I'm a 6w7 with an off-chance of 9w1.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    When we accuse others of making a superficial judgment we ourselves are making a superficial judgment. And that about not wanting to be associated with someone for such a reason... very superficial indeed.
    Of course you are free to judge however you'd like, but you don't seem to be grasping that I don't feel like my judgments are superficial. These are people I have known for a lengthy time and have cared about extensively, and who have hurt me and others around them to the extent that I feel like I don't want to risk their presence in my life again. It's not about whether I approve of their actions or not - they can do whatever they want with their lives - but it is about whether I feel like I want their influence in my life and whether I trust them to treat others in my life with respect and caring as well. I want nothing more than for them to have happy and healthy lives. But how can I continue to encourage them have a presence in my life when they feel like it's okay to insult and hurt people I care about? I would LOVE to welcome them back into my life if they are willing to change that. I would welcome them with open arms. I feel like I have given them many chances. And I am still very open to it if the signs indicate otherwise.

    Anyway, valaki, I was friends with the girl in the first example for several years when I was young, when we had dance class together, then we went to different schools, and then later we went to the same school and became close friends for four years. We rode the bus together every day, had homeroom together, hung out at each others' houses, and shared each others' secrets. I visited her at her college 5 hours away from home not long before this happened. I always tried hard to be accepting of her and her girlfriends and friends, who were very different than the people I tended to hang out with. I found it cruel that she would suddenly attack me and the people that were important to me, especially when I had always tried to be accepting of her. Then I tried to talk to her about it afterwards and she told me that she was sorry I was hurt but that was her opinion of me and my friends and it wasn't changing. I tried several times before eventually giving up.

    If you feel like you would have acted better in this scenario, what would you have done? Would you just stay friends with them and have continued to listen to them insulting you and the other people you care about? Would you not feel like you were betraying the people you cared about?

    Have you ever tried to understand what her real problem was with the manager? And that husband... how was that relevant to your relationship with this girl? O_o In her place I would feel it's unfair treatment breaking a relationship just because of some completely unrelated thing. Nobody's a saint!
    Yes, I know what her real problem was. She had applied for the job that he had gotten, and she was angry because she felt like she deserved it more. He had more management experience than her - she had none - which was why they chose him. I also applied for that job, which is how I know. She was accusing him of doing things that I know he didn't do because I was there. She was lying and getting angry at people in our department for not lying to support her. She made our workdays awful. One young girl confided in me that she hated coming to work when this girl was working too, because she made the atmosphere so unbearable. That's not fair to anyone.

    As for the relationship, she spent days and days and days ranting - loudly and angrily monologuing and demanding agreement from those of us around her - about how she was a good wife, how she would never cheat, how it was disgusting that people thought there was anything going on between her and the guy she eventually got into a relationship with. From her own account of things, she was cheating with him when she was spending her days at work raving about her "never cheating". She would insult people for implying it. So, yes, she did involve me in this relationship issue, because she got personally angry at me for not speaking up in defense of her. Again, she was lying and getting angry at people for not supporting her lies. I tried to talk to her, but she was so angry all the time. I tried on facebook and in person. I tried with friends and alone. It got so bad that management began talking to her about needing to stop her behavior in the workplace. She was making everyone miserable.

    Eventually she got a new job, and last time she came back in I tried to talk to her. She asked me where someone else was and didn't say another word to me.

    Again, I ask, how would you have handled the situation better?

    Anyway, it was an interesting read about how Fi works... Still this sort of Fi stuff makes me mad and everything.
    I think it's strange that you have made such quick judgments about my judgment without understanding these situations through my perspective. I think your mentioning Fi is important... I guess there's some sort of disconnect there. To me these feelings of anger and my harshest judgments (which evidently sound superficial on your end) that I've expressed arise from defensive desire to protect what I care about. As a fellow P I tend not to make "final" judgments and I tend to listen for information, and it takes a high level of perceived "danger" to make me behave as such, so when I hear this tone from another person, I tend to empathize and understand that these are extreme measures taken in extreme situations, and I tend to probe for the extremity of feeling if it's not immediately evident. Your reaction of dismissal and disgust is a fairly foreign one to my perspective.

    @Misty made another relevant point in another thread, which is this:

    I think instinctual variant has the biggest impact on what "protected" means to each individual, and yes, it can vary greatly.
    To me these scenarios are mainly about protecting the people I care about as well as myself from those who choose to be harmful without remorse. I guess that's a pretty Social-style way of looking at things, the need to protect your "herd" from a "dangerous" person. I can see how it could be aggravating to other variants. I can already hear my Sp-first boyfriend saying that every person has a native ability to reason for themselves and to decide for themselves whether that "dangerous" person is really dangerous to them and whether they should avoid them or not - that I don't really need to do that for others. But to me it feels like I would be betraying the people I love if I encouraged someone that I witnessed being hurtful against them to continue to be in my life.

    I hope that puts some of this in better perspective. I'm not trying to argue that I necessarily did what's best or right, but I feel like these were very much not superficial decisions. The level of negative emotion coming through is proportional to how much distress the situation caused me, as these were people I liked and looked up to. There's very little pleasing about cutting them off in my life. I miss them.

  8. #68
    Step into my office. Luv Deluxe's Avatar
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    I can be open-minded to a fault. I so prefer giving others the benefit of the doubt that I sometimes find myself in dangerous situations...not out of being too trusting, but perhaps out of some combination of confidence and curiosity.

    Essentially, I'm usually quite capable of discerning what somebody's motivations are, and I trust myself to handle those interactions as they arise.

    My ISFJ 1w2 friend is outwardly forgiving, but it feels a little forced - as though she's doing it because her moral code tells her she has to. Underneath all of that, she's one of the most stubborn people I know. She holds grudges against all of her exes in a very deep and bitter way. Standard definitions of abuse do not seem to have been involved; her relationships were fraught with arguments and a lack of synchronicity, yes, but she carries a lot of resentment toward those men. I don't expect her to retain fond memories of them, but she tends to voluntarily dwell on her anger and I find it very unattractive. From my perspective, it's over and done with - who cares? Those guys clearly weren't good enough, so screw 'em and move on already.

    But our minds aren't wired that way. She's all experience and strategy, I'm all gut-reaction and progression.

    Having said that, there are people in my life whom I do not care for, people who have done me serious wrong. I suppose I choose not to consciously think about them. In fact, there are whole chunks of my life (especially in my adolescent years) that seem to have gone missing. The ISFJ 1w2 remembers disturbing volumes of detail from that time period, names and faces and stories as though she's got a photographic memory. I've got little more than snippets here and there, a general sense of knowing what happened without willfully being able to recall most of it.

    So I'd like to think I'm a forgiving person, but I'm not sure if that's accurate. For the most part, I simply tend to put bad experiences in my rearview as quickly as possible.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Of course you are free to judge however you'd like, but you don't seem to be grasping that I don't feel like my judgments are superficial.
    I don't follow there; I didn't think you felt it was superficial and I didn't intend to imply that. It wouldn't make sense anyway


    These are people I have known for a lengthy time and have cared about extensively, and who have hurt me and others around them to the extent that I feel like I don't want to risk their presence in my life again. It's not about whether I approve of their actions or not - they can do whatever they want with their lives - but it is about whether I feel like I want their influence in my life and whether I trust them to treat others in my life with respect and caring as well. I want nothing more than for them to have happy and healthy lives. But how can I continue to encourage them have a presence in my life when they feel like it's okay to insult and hurt people I care about? I would LOVE to welcome them back into my life if they are willing to change that. I would welcome them with open arms. I feel like I have given them many chances. And I am still very open to it if the signs indicate otherwise.
    OK, that wasn't mentioned before and also you didn't go into details to this degree as you did now; I understand your position more now. I got upset because I thought of examples where it was indeed superficial judgment. I see it is not the case here.


    Anyway, valaki, I was friends with the girl in the first example for several years when I was young, when we had dance class together, then we went to different schools, and then later we went to the same school and became close friends for four years. We rode the bus together every day, had homeroom together, hung out at each others' houses, and shared each others' secrets. I visited her at her college 5 hours away from home not long before this happened. I always tried hard to be accepting of her and her girlfriends and friends, who were very different than the people I tended to hang out with. I found it cruel that she would suddenly attack me and the people that were important to me, especially when I had always tried to be accepting of her. Then I tried to talk to her about it afterwards and she told me that she was sorry I was hurt but that was her opinion of me and my friends and it wasn't changing. I tried several times before eventually giving up.

    If you feel like you would have acted better in this scenario, what would you have done? Would you just stay friends with them and have continued to listen to them insulting you and the other people you care about? Would you not feel like you were betraying the people you cared about?
    I would have tried to get her to tell me what the reason for her suddenly adverse feelings was. My reaction would depend on that then.

    If she was refusing to tell me, well I would have a big problem with that. All other cases, I can't tell you much without specifics.


    Yes, I know what her real problem was. She had applied for the job that he had gotten, and she was angry because she felt like she deserved it more. He had more management experience than her - she had none - which was why they chose him. I also applied for that job, which is how I know. She was accusing him of doing things that I know he didn't do because I was there. She was lying and getting angry at people in our department for not lying to support her. She made our workdays awful. One young girl confided in me that she hated coming to work when this girl was working too, because she made the atmosphere so unbearable. That's not fair to anyone.

    As for the relationship, she spent days and days and days ranting - loudly and angrily monologuing and demanding agreement from those of us around her - about how she was a good wife, how she would never cheat, how it was disgusting that people thought there was anything going on between her and the guy she eventually got into a relationship with. From her own account of things, she was cheating with him when she was spending her days at work raving about her "never cheating". She would insult people for implying it. So, yes, she did involve me in this relationship issue, because she got personally angry at me for not speaking up in defense of her. Again, she was lying and getting angry at people for not supporting her lies. I tried to talk to her, but she was so angry all the time. I tried on facebook and in person. I tried with friends and alone. It got so bad that management began talking to her about needing to stop her behavior in the workplace. She was making everyone miserable.

    Eventually she got a new job, and last time she came back in I tried to talk to her. She asked me where someone else was and didn't say another word to me.

    Again, I ask, how would you have handled the situation better?
    Now that I see the entire story here - I think I would have lost patience sooner than you did


    I think it's strange that you have made such quick judgments about my judgment without understanding these situations through my perspective.
    Well see above about the reason for that.


    I think your mentioning Fi is important... I guess there's some sort of disconnect there. To me these feelings of anger and my harshest judgments (which evidently sound superficial on your end) that I've expressed arise from defensive desire to protect what I care about. As a fellow P I tend not to make "final" judgments and I tend to listen for information, and it takes a high level of perceived "danger" to make me behave as such, so when I hear this tone from another person, I tend to empathize and understand that these are extreme measures taken in extreme situations, and I tend to probe for the extremity of feeling if it's not immediately evident. Your reaction of dismissal and disgust is a fairly foreign one to my perspective.
    I see your viewpoint; well I don't start with empathizing, I start by assuming the negative scenario first as you can see :/

    But yes I understand that it's not always the correct assumption. I'm glad you told me more about your viewpoint & details about the cases.


    To me these scenarios are mainly about protecting the people I care about as well as myself from those who choose to be harmful without remorse. I guess that's a pretty Social-style way of looking at things, the need to protect your "herd" from a "dangerous" person. I can see how it could be aggravating to other variants. I can already hear my Sp-first boyfriend saying that every person has a native ability to reason for themselves and to decide for themselves whether that "dangerous" person is really dangerous to them and whether they should avoid them or not - that I don't really need to do that for others. But to me it feels like I would be betraying the people I love if I encouraged someone that I witnessed being hurtful against them to continue to be in my life.
    Interesting about the instinctual variants... it does make sense. I'm still not quite sure about my instinctual stacking, because I actually acted in a similar Soc-instinct based way before. (Specifically, actively protecting "herd" from random "troll".) It just has the prerequisite of me actually caring about whatever group, which doesn't happen all that often. The reasoning of your Sp-first bf makes quite some sense too If I had a friend who was being nasty to other people, I wouldn't drop the friendship just because of that. I could totally argue that it means betraying that friend over other people. If I personally don't have a problem with this friend, why would I drop the friendship? It doesn't mean I wouldn't have a problem with such behaviour by a friend though. It all depends on the specific case, as to what I'd do exactly, devil's in the details :p


    I hope that puts some of this in better perspective. I'm not trying to argue that I necessarily did what's best or right, but I feel like these were very much not superficial decisions. The level of negative emotion coming through is proportional to how much distress the situation caused me, as these were people I liked and looked up to. There's very little pleasing about cutting them off in my life. I miss them.
    Yeah, it's always really shit especially when something good just seems to end for no reason. I mean, in the first case of your two, it almost seems like a "no reason for change" case :/ (Though I'm sure there was a reason for the change in her behaviour but see above about what I think about that)

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    I don't follow there; I didn't think you felt it was superficial and I didn't intend to imply that. It wouldn't make sense anyway
    Ah, okay. Apologies. When you said "When we accuse others of making a superficial judgment we ourselves are making a superficial judgment. And that about not wanting to be associated with someone for such a reason... very superficial indeed.", I thought you were referring to my judgment of them.

    OK, that wasn't mentioned before and also you didn't go into details to this degree as you did now; I understand your position more now. I got upset because I thought of examples where it was indeed superficial judgment. I see it is not the case here.
    That's ok! My language was certainly not friendly. I guess it's the Te coming through.

    I would have tried to get her to tell me what the reason for her suddenly adverse feelings was. My reaction would depend on that then.

    If she was refusing to tell me, well I would have a big problem with that. All other cases, I can't tell you much without specifics.
    Yeah, that's fair. I still don't really understand why. The elements of it didn't even all connect - like what the insults were for. Or why she was telling them to me.

    Now that I see the entire story here - I think I would have lost patience sooner than you did
    Eh, it was at work and she had more seniority. I kind of had to keep it together, lol.

    I see your viewpoint; well I don't start with empathizing, I start by assuming the negative scenario first as you can see :/

    But yes I understand that it's not always the correct assumption. I'm glad you told me more about your viewpoint & details about the cases.
    Sure! Thanks for listening!

    Interesting about the instinctual variants... it does make sense. I'm still not quite sure about my instinctual stacking, because I actually acted in a similar Soc-instinct based way before. (Specifically, actively protecting "herd" from random "troll".) It just has the prerequisite of me actually caring about whatever group, which doesn't happen all that often. The reasoning of your Sp-first bf makes quite some sense too If I had a friend who was being nasty to other people, I wouldn't drop the friendship just because of that. I could totally argue that it means betraying that friend over other people. If I personally don't have a problem with this friend, why would I drop the friendship? It doesn't mean I wouldn't have a problem with such behaviour by a friend though. It all depends on the specific case, as to what I'd do exactly, devil's in the details :p
    Yeah, I know what you mean. Hard to judge a case without knowing the specifics. I guess I am betraying these people sort of but I guess when I "weigh" that against the other people in my life who are being nice and spreading kindness it seems "worth" it. Like... it's not betrayal because they were the one who chose to be hurtful, and it's my responsibility to protect the people I love. I think the Social 6 is supposed to have hangups with "duty", and I do. And when two "duties" clash... I choose the one I have more loyalty to, I guess. Tighter bonds.

    Yeah, it's always really shit especially when something good just seems to end for no reason. I mean, in the first case of your two, it almost seems like a "no reason for change" case :/ (Though I'm sure there was a reason for the change in her behaviour but see above about what I think about that)
    Yeah, I agree with you. I wish I knew. There's part of me that wants to see if I can strike the friendship back up, but to be honest I think it'd be more about curiosity than real kindness, and I think if I found out the reason and I didn't like it I'd probably ditch her again. So that seems kind of mean. Might just be better to leave it alone, I figure, unless the natural course of life dictates otherwise.

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