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[Traditional Enneagram] which type is the most/least forgiving ?

Alea_iacta_est

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Maybe not completely forever but I think there may be truth to this.

Si-doms tend to have very strong and very personal memories, which contributes in an inability to forgive.



I'm a Ni+6 and am pretty forgiving so that doesn't seem right.



I wonder if this is common to Fi-doms in general.


I was mainly going for Ni-Fe combinations, I should have put that down instead of just 'Ni'.

I said Type 6 due to their hatred/fear of betrayal, which I drew to mean that they would most likely be unforgiving to anyone who betrayed them.
 

skylights

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My take as an ENFP 6... is that while I might forgive someone for what they've done because I have fairly universal deep empathy... I might not want to have them back in my life. I think a lot of times it's character judgment and whether I feel like they're acting with love and kindness generally and what they did was an aberration, or if their outlook is hateful and their action was consistent with that outlook, in which case I'd prefer to avoid them.

  • For example... I had a good high school friend who I met up with again during college... she's ENFP 4w3 sx/so or so/sx I think... and she was very insistent upon not being a lesbian in high school even though she was very openly flirty with girls. And when we met up, she was in a lesbian relationship. Which is a-okay with me, and I'm glad she found herself, and I understand the discovery process and stress of being different. But then she used that meeting as a platform to tell me about how uninformed the hetero majority is. Which would also be fine, except she grouped me in that uninformed majority without allowing me to speak to my own orientation or viewpoints. And she went on to insult my school and my friends. She spoke over me when I tried to make points to the contrary. And so... while I do not carry any anger... I also don't want to associate with someone who is making superficial judgments and touting herself as the misunderstood.
  • Another example... there was a girl at my work... ENFJ 6w7 sx/so I'm fairly sure... and she trained me, and we were on good terms. But then she went crusading against our manager - who wasn't being nice, but also wasn't doing all the things she said he was - and she would spend the day ranting and raving about me and our other coworkers for not joining her in lambasting him. And then she was flirting with another guy at work... but she was married with a child... and then it came out that she told her husband she wanted to split... and then she started dating the guy she was flirting with. And I love her husband, who is really patient, hardworking, and kind. So I have a really hard time interacting with her because I felt like she did her husband so dirty, and was unfair to our manager, and was unfair to everyone for making our jobs hard for not agreeing with her. And she still feels like she did the right thing.
  • But as a counterexample... a good friend of mine... who I talked about on here before, if anyone remembers. She treated my boyfriend like crap the first time they met for no clear reason - I did everything in my power to ensure it wasn't a 3rd wheel situation and I apologized later and tried to speak to her about it, but she wouldn't for months - so I decided to distance myself after that. But recently she invited both of us somewhere, so we went, and she was very congenial and friendly and everything went great. So I've reinvested in the friendship and am very happy about it.

So I think the two forces in me at work are Fi character judgment and e6 cautiousness, with the judgment informing the cautiousness.

That doesn't really answer the question, but I don't feel like I necessarily have a good answer. So, just data for the bank.
 

highlander

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I said Type 6 due to their hatred/fear of betrayal, which I drew to mean that they would most likely be unforgiving to anyone who betrayed them.

Ok I see. Yes, if I am betrayed, it deeply upsets and disappoints me. Someone would have to screw me over in a way that it has a negative and lasting effect on my life in which case yes, I will be unlikely to ever trust them again and in some cases will never want to have anything to do with them again. These situations are rare but they do happen.
 

valaki

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[*]For example... I had a good high school friend who I met up with again during college... she's ENFP 4w3 sx/so or so/sx I think... and she was very insistent upon not being a lesbian in high school even though she was very openly flirty with girls. And when we met up, she was in a lesbian relationship. Which is a-okay with me, and I'm glad she found herself, and I understand the discovery process and stress of being different. But then she used that meeting as a platform to tell me about how uninformed the hetero majority is. Which would also be fine, except she grouped me in that uninformed majority without allowing me to speak to my own orientation or viewpoints. And she went on to insult my school and my friends. She spoke over me when I tried to make points to the contrary. And so... while I do not carry any anger... I also don't want to associate with someone who is making superficial judgments and touting herself as the misunderstood.

When we accuse others of making a superficial judgment we ourselves are making a superficial judgment. And that about not wanting to be associated with someone for such a reason... very superficial indeed.


[*]Another example... there was a girl at my work... ENFJ 6w7 sx/so I'm fairly sure... and she trained me, and we were on good terms. But then she went crusading against our manager - who wasn't being nice, but also wasn't doing all the things she said he was - and she would spend the day ranting and raving about me and our other coworkers for not joining her in lambasting him. And then she was flirting with another guy at work... but she was married with a child... and then it came out that she told her husband she wanted to split... and then she started dating the guy she was flirting with. And I love her husband, who is really patient, hardworking, and kind. So I have a really hard time interacting with her because I felt like she did her husband so dirty, and was unfair to our manager, and was unfair to everyone for making our jobs hard for not agreeing with her. And she still feels like she did the right thing.

Have you ever tried to understand what her real problem was with the manager? And that husband... how was that relevant to your relationship with this girl? o_O In her place I would feel it's unfair treatment breaking a relationship just because of some completely unrelated thing. Nobody's a saint!


Anyway, it was an interesting read about how Fi works... Still this sort of Fi stuff makes me mad and everything. :mad:
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

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Huh? Is he into Enneagram? Lol what faulty logic there. Even if you were a 4... bullshit reasoning :p
Yep, he's into enneagram. He's 854, and that stuff they say about this tritype building maps of what makes people "tick", then being blind to new information is actually true in his case. Yeah, it's a faulty map held together with faulty logic, at least in my case.
 
S

Stansmith

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I'm usually forgiving unless I'm given a legitimate reason not to be..I'm a 6w7 with an off-chance of 9w1.
 

skylights

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When we accuse others of making a superficial judgment we ourselves are making a superficial judgment. And that about not wanting to be associated with someone for such a reason... very superficial indeed.

Of course you are free to judge however you'd like, but you don't seem to be grasping that I don't feel like my judgments are superficial. These are people I have known for a lengthy time and have cared about extensively, and who have hurt me and others around them to the extent that I feel like I don't want to risk their presence in my life again. It's not about whether I approve of their actions or not - they can do whatever they want with their lives - but it is about whether I feel like I want their influence in my life and whether I trust them to treat others in my life with respect and caring as well. I want nothing more than for them to have happy and healthy lives. But how can I continue to encourage them have a presence in my life when they feel like it's okay to insult and hurt people I care about? I would LOVE to welcome them back into my life if they are willing to change that. I would welcome them with open arms. I feel like I have given them many chances. And I am still very open to it if the signs indicate otherwise.

Anyway, valaki, I was friends with the girl in the first example for several years when I was young, when we had dance class together, then we went to different schools, and then later we went to the same school and became close friends for four years. We rode the bus together every day, had homeroom together, hung out at each others' houses, and shared each others' secrets. I visited her at her college 5 hours away from home not long before this happened. I always tried hard to be accepting of her and her girlfriends and friends, who were very different than the people I tended to hang out with. I found it cruel that she would suddenly attack me and the people that were important to me, especially when I had always tried to be accepting of her. Then I tried to talk to her about it afterwards and she told me that she was sorry I was hurt but that was her opinion of me and my friends and it wasn't changing. I tried several times before eventually giving up.

If you feel like you would have acted better in this scenario, what would you have done? Would you just stay friends with them and have continued to listen to them insulting you and the other people you care about? Would you not feel like you were betraying the people you cared about?

Have you ever tried to understand what her real problem was with the manager? And that husband... how was that relevant to your relationship with this girl? o_O In her place I would feel it's unfair treatment breaking a relationship just because of some completely unrelated thing. Nobody's a saint!

Yes, I know what her real problem was. She had applied for the job that he had gotten, and she was angry because she felt like she deserved it more. He had more management experience than her - she had none - which was why they chose him. I also applied for that job, which is how I know. She was accusing him of doing things that I know he didn't do because I was there. She was lying and getting angry at people in our department for not lying to support her. She made our workdays awful. One young girl confided in me that she hated coming to work when this girl was working too, because she made the atmosphere so unbearable. That's not fair to anyone.

As for the relationship, she spent days and days and days ranting - loudly and angrily monologuing and demanding agreement from those of us around her - about how she was a good wife, how she would never cheat, how it was disgusting that people thought there was anything going on between her and the guy she eventually got into a relationship with. From her own account of things, she was cheating with him when she was spending her days at work raving about her "never cheating". She would insult people for implying it. So, yes, she did involve me in this relationship issue, because she got personally angry at me for not speaking up in defense of her. Again, she was lying and getting angry at people for not supporting her lies. I tried to talk to her, but she was so angry all the time. I tried on facebook and in person. I tried with friends and alone. It got so bad that management began talking to her about needing to stop her behavior in the workplace. She was making everyone miserable.

Eventually she got a new job, and last time she came back in I tried to talk to her. She asked me where someone else was and didn't say another word to me.

Again, I ask, how would you have handled the situation better?

Anyway, it was an interesting read about how Fi works... Still this sort of Fi stuff makes me mad and everything. :mad:

I think it's strange that you have made such quick judgments about my judgment without understanding these situations through my perspective. I think your mentioning Fi is important... I guess there's some sort of disconnect there. To me these feelings of anger and my harshest judgments (which evidently sound superficial on your end) that I've expressed arise from defensive desire to protect what I care about. As a fellow P I tend not to make "final" judgments and I tend to listen for information, and it takes a high level of perceived "danger" to make me behave as such, so when I hear this tone from another person, I tend to empathize and understand that these are extreme measures taken in extreme situations, and I tend to probe for the extremity of feeling if it's not immediately evident. Your reaction of dismissal and disgust is a fairly foreign one to my perspective.

[MENTION=17945]Misty[/MENTION] made another relevant point in another thread, which is this:

I think instinctual variant has the biggest impact on what "protected" means to each individual, and yes, it can vary greatly.

To me these scenarios are mainly about protecting the people I care about as well as myself from those who choose to be harmful without remorse. I guess that's a pretty Social-style way of looking at things, the need to protect your "herd" from a "dangerous" person. I can see how it could be aggravating to other variants. I can already hear my Sp-first boyfriend saying that every person has a native ability to reason for themselves and to decide for themselves whether that "dangerous" person is really dangerous to them and whether they should avoid them or not - that I don't really need to do that for others. But to me it feels like I would be betraying the people I love if I encouraged someone that I witnessed being hurtful against them to continue to be in my life.

I hope that puts some of this in better perspective. I'm not trying to argue that I necessarily did what's best or right, but I feel like these were very much not superficial decisions. The level of negative emotion coming through is proportional to how much distress the situation caused me, as these were people I liked and looked up to. There's very little pleasing about cutting them off in my life. I miss them.
 

Luv Deluxe

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I can be open-minded to a fault. I so prefer giving others the benefit of the doubt that I sometimes find myself in dangerous situations...not out of being too trusting, but perhaps out of some combination of confidence and curiosity.

Essentially, I'm usually quite capable of discerning what somebody's motivations are, and I trust myself to handle those interactions as they arise.

My ISFJ 1w2 friend is outwardly forgiving, but it feels a little forced - as though she's doing it because her moral code tells her she has to. Underneath all of that, she's one of the most stubborn people I know. She holds grudges against all of her exes in a very deep and bitter way. Standard definitions of abuse do not seem to have been involved; her relationships were fraught with arguments and a lack of synchronicity, yes, but she carries a lot of resentment toward those men. I don't expect her to retain fond memories of them, but she tends to voluntarily dwell on her anger and I find it very unattractive. From my perspective, it's over and done with - who cares? Those guys clearly weren't good enough, so screw 'em and move on already.

But our minds aren't wired that way. She's all experience and strategy, I'm all gut-reaction and progression.

Having said that, there are people in my life whom I do not care for, people who have done me serious wrong. I suppose I choose not to consciously think about them. In fact, there are whole chunks of my life (especially in my adolescent years) that seem to have gone missing. The ISFJ 1w2 remembers disturbing volumes of detail from that time period, names and faces and stories as though she's got a photographic memory. I've got little more than snippets here and there, a general sense of knowing what happened without willfully being able to recall most of it.

So I'd like to think I'm a forgiving person, but I'm not sure if that's accurate. For the most part, I simply tend to put bad experiences in my rearview as quickly as possible.
 

valaki

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Of course you are free to judge however you'd like, but you don't seem to be grasping that I don't feel like my judgments are superficial.

I don't follow there; I didn't think you felt it was superficial and I didn't intend to imply that. It wouldn't make sense anyway


These are people I have known for a lengthy time and have cared about extensively, and who have hurt me and others around them to the extent that I feel like I don't want to risk their presence in my life again. It's not about whether I approve of their actions or not - they can do whatever they want with their lives - but it is about whether I feel like I want their influence in my life and whether I trust them to treat others in my life with respect and caring as well. I want nothing more than for them to have happy and healthy lives. But how can I continue to encourage them have a presence in my life when they feel like it's okay to insult and hurt people I care about? I would LOVE to welcome them back into my life if they are willing to change that. I would welcome them with open arms. I feel like I have given them many chances. And I am still very open to it if the signs indicate otherwise.

OK, that wasn't mentioned before and also you didn't go into details to this degree as you did now; I understand your position more now. I got upset because I thought of examples where it was indeed superficial judgment. I see it is not the case here.


Anyway, valaki, I was friends with the girl in the first example for several years when I was young, when we had dance class together, then we went to different schools, and then later we went to the same school and became close friends for four years. We rode the bus together every day, had homeroom together, hung out at each others' houses, and shared each others' secrets. I visited her at her college 5 hours away from home not long before this happened. I always tried hard to be accepting of her and her girlfriends and friends, who were very different than the people I tended to hang out with. I found it cruel that she would suddenly attack me and the people that were important to me, especially when I had always tried to be accepting of her. Then I tried to talk to her about it afterwards and she told me that she was sorry I was hurt but that was her opinion of me and my friends and it wasn't changing. I tried several times before eventually giving up.

If you feel like you would have acted better in this scenario, what would you have done? Would you just stay friends with them and have continued to listen to them insulting you and the other people you care about? Would you not feel like you were betraying the people you cared about?

I would have tried to get her to tell me what the reason for her suddenly adverse feelings was. My reaction would depend on that then.

If she was refusing to tell me, well I would have a big problem with that. All other cases, I can't tell you much without specifics.


Yes, I know what her real problem was. She had applied for the job that he had gotten, and she was angry because she felt like she deserved it more. He had more management experience than her - she had none - which was why they chose him. I also applied for that job, which is how I know. She was accusing him of doing things that I know he didn't do because I was there. She was lying and getting angry at people in our department for not lying to support her. She made our workdays awful. One young girl confided in me that she hated coming to work when this girl was working too, because she made the atmosphere so unbearable. That's not fair to anyone.

As for the relationship, she spent days and days and days ranting - loudly and angrily monologuing and demanding agreement from those of us around her - about how she was a good wife, how she would never cheat, how it was disgusting that people thought there was anything going on between her and the guy she eventually got into a relationship with. From her own account of things, she was cheating with him when she was spending her days at work raving about her "never cheating". She would insult people for implying it. So, yes, she did involve me in this relationship issue, because she got personally angry at me for not speaking up in defense of her. Again, she was lying and getting angry at people for not supporting her lies. I tried to talk to her, but she was so angry all the time. I tried on facebook and in person. I tried with friends and alone. It got so bad that management began talking to her about needing to stop her behavior in the workplace. She was making everyone miserable.

Eventually she got a new job, and last time she came back in I tried to talk to her. She asked me where someone else was and didn't say another word to me.

Again, I ask, how would you have handled the situation better?

Now that I see the entire story here - I think I would have lost patience sooner than you did ;)


I think it's strange that you have made such quick judgments about my judgment without understanding these situations through my perspective.

Well see above about the reason for that.


I think your mentioning Fi is important... I guess there's some sort of disconnect there. To me these feelings of anger and my harshest judgments (which evidently sound superficial on your end) that I've expressed arise from defensive desire to protect what I care about. As a fellow P I tend not to make "final" judgments and I tend to listen for information, and it takes a high level of perceived "danger" to make me behave as such, so when I hear this tone from another person, I tend to empathize and understand that these are extreme measures taken in extreme situations, and I tend to probe for the extremity of feeling if it's not immediately evident. Your reaction of dismissal and disgust is a fairly foreign one to my perspective.

I see your viewpoint; well I don't start with empathizing, I start by assuming the negative scenario first as you can see :/

But yes I understand that it's not always the correct assumption. I'm glad you told me more about your viewpoint & details about the cases.


To me these scenarios are mainly about protecting the people I care about as well as myself from those who choose to be harmful without remorse. I guess that's a pretty Social-style way of looking at things, the need to protect your "herd" from a "dangerous" person. I can see how it could be aggravating to other variants. I can already hear my Sp-first boyfriend saying that every person has a native ability to reason for themselves and to decide for themselves whether that "dangerous" person is really dangerous to them and whether they should avoid them or not - that I don't really need to do that for others. But to me it feels like I would be betraying the people I love if I encouraged someone that I witnessed being hurtful against them to continue to be in my life.

Interesting about the instinctual variants... it does make sense. I'm still not quite sure about my instinctual stacking, because I actually acted in a similar Soc-instinct based way before. (Specifically, actively protecting "herd" from random "troll".) It just has the prerequisite of me actually caring about whatever group, which doesn't happen all that often. The reasoning of your Sp-first bf makes quite some sense too ;) If I had a friend who was being nasty to other people, I wouldn't drop the friendship just because of that. I could totally argue that it means betraying that friend over other people. If I personally don't have a problem with this friend, why would I drop the friendship? It doesn't mean I wouldn't have a problem with such behaviour by a friend though. It all depends on the specific case, as to what I'd do exactly, devil's in the details :p


I hope that puts some of this in better perspective. I'm not trying to argue that I necessarily did what's best or right, but I feel like these were very much not superficial decisions. The level of negative emotion coming through is proportional to how much distress the situation caused me, as these were people I liked and looked up to. There's very little pleasing about cutting them off in my life. I miss them.

Yeah, it's always really shit especially when something good just seems to end for no reason. I mean, in the first case of your two, it almost seems like a "no reason for change" case :/ (Though I'm sure there was a reason for the change in her behaviour but see above about what I think about that)
 

skylights

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I don't follow there; I didn't think you felt it was superficial and I didn't intend to imply that. It wouldn't make sense anyway

Ah, okay. Apologies. When you said "When we accuse others of making a superficial judgment we ourselves are making a superficial judgment. And that about not wanting to be associated with someone for such a reason... very superficial indeed.", I thought you were referring to my judgment of them.

OK, that wasn't mentioned before and also you didn't go into details to this degree as you did now; I understand your position more now. I got upset because I thought of examples where it was indeed superficial judgment. I see it is not the case here.

That's ok! My language was certainly not friendly. I guess it's the Te coming through.

I would have tried to get her to tell me what the reason for her suddenly adverse feelings was. My reaction would depend on that then.

If she was refusing to tell me, well I would have a big problem with that. All other cases, I can't tell you much without specifics.

Yeah, that's fair. I still don't really understand why. The elements of it didn't even all connect - like what the insults were for. Or why she was telling them to me.

Now that I see the entire story here - I think I would have lost patience sooner than you did ;)

:laugh: Eh, it was at work and she had more seniority. I kind of had to keep it together, lol.

I see your viewpoint; well I don't start with empathizing, I start by assuming the negative scenario first as you can see :/

But yes I understand that it's not always the correct assumption. I'm glad you told me more about your viewpoint & details about the cases.

Sure! Thanks for listening!

Interesting about the instinctual variants... it does make sense. I'm still not quite sure about my instinctual stacking, because I actually acted in a similar Soc-instinct based way before. (Specifically, actively protecting "herd" from random "troll".) It just has the prerequisite of me actually caring about whatever group, which doesn't happen all that often. The reasoning of your Sp-first bf makes quite some sense too ;) If I had a friend who was being nasty to other people, I wouldn't drop the friendship just because of that. I could totally argue that it means betraying that friend over other people. If I personally don't have a problem with this friend, why would I drop the friendship? It doesn't mean I wouldn't have a problem with such behaviour by a friend though. It all depends on the specific case, as to what I'd do exactly, devil's in the details :p

Yeah, I know what you mean. Hard to judge a case without knowing the specifics. I guess I am betraying these people sort of but I guess when I "weigh" that against the other people in my life who are being nice and spreading kindness it seems "worth" it. Like... it's not betrayal because they were the one who chose to be hurtful, and it's my responsibility to protect the people I love. I think the Social 6 is supposed to have hangups with "duty", and I do. And when two "duties" clash... I choose the one I have more loyalty to, I guess. Tighter bonds.

Yeah, it's always really shit especially when something good just seems to end for no reason. I mean, in the first case of your two, it almost seems like a "no reason for change" case :/ (Though I'm sure there was a reason for the change in her behaviour but see above about what I think about that)

Yeah, I agree with you. I wish I knew. There's part of me that wants to see if I can strike the friendship back up, but to be honest I think it'd be more about curiosity than real kindness, and I think if I found out the reason and I didn't like it I'd probably ditch her again. So that seems kind of mean. Might just be better to leave it alone, I figure, unless the natural course of life dictates otherwise.
 

valaki

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Ah, okay. Apologies. When you said "When we accuse others of making a superficial judgment we ourselves are making a superficial judgment. And that about not wanting to be associated with someone for such a reason... very superficial indeed.", I thought you were referring to my judgment of them.

Sorry I actually was, because I didn't understand your reasons yet. I didn't mean you'd consciously think of it that way. But anyway, nevermind that now ;)


That's ok! My language was certainly not friendly. I guess it's the Te coming through.

Well let's not blame anything here :)


Yeah, that's fair. I still don't really understand why. The elements of it didn't even all connect - like what the insults were for. Or why she was telling them to me.

I see what you mean. I've seen such cases myself :/


Yeah, I know what you mean. Hard to judge a case without knowing the specifics. I guess I am betraying these people sort of but I guess when I "weigh" that against the other people in my life who are being nice and spreading kindness it seems "worth" it. Like... it's not betrayal because they were the one who chose to be hurtful, and it's my responsibility to protect the people I love. I think the Social 6 is supposed to have hangups with "duty", and I do. And when two "duties" clash... I choose the one I have more loyalty to, I guess. Tighter bonds.

I see. I guess you give a chance to those people first anyway, and explain your stance, and not just simply cutting them out without further explanation.


Yeah, I agree with you. I wish I knew. There's part of me that wants to see if I can strike the friendship back up, but to be honest I think it'd be more about curiosity than real kindness, and I think if I found out the reason and I didn't like it I'd probably ditch her again. So that seems kind of mean. Might just be better to leave it alone, I figure, unless the natural course of life dictates otherwise.

That's interesting you'd think about the difference between curiosity and kindness. This is just my opinion but I feel that that's the sort of analysis that just creates unnecessary blaming of yourself. I referred to it earlier as "no one is a saint". So if the motives aren't pure that's acceptable because no one is perfect. I would still think that some of it is the "real kindness". Well you can see I'm pretty laid back about interpretation of such moral issues, more relative than absolute in my view. That's going off topic here though :p
 

skylights

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Sorry I actually was, because I didn't understand your reasons yet. I didn't mean you'd consciously think of it that way. But anyway, nevermind that now ;)

Well let's not blame anything here :)


I see what you mean. I've seen such cases myself :/


I see. I guess you give a chance to those people first anyway, and explain your stance, and not just simply cutting them out without further explanation.


That's interesting you'd think about the difference between curiosity and kindness. This is just my opinion but I feel that that's the sort of analysis that just creates unnecessary blaming of yourself. I referred to it earlier as "no one is a saint". So if the motives aren't pure that's acceptable because no one is perfect. I would still think that some of it is the "real kindness". Well you can see I'm pretty laid back about interpretation of such moral issues, more relative than absolute in my view. That's going off topic here though :p

Interesting though valaki. Thanks for your opinion. I've enjoyed this exchange with you. I like hearing others' reasoning.
 

Honor

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I think I'm too forgiving, but I'm becoming more pragmatic as I get older.
 

Forever

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I expect unforgiveness to manifest especially in ISFJs more than other types, but again that is a stereotype.

I imagine:
Fe: "Oh, hello again."
Si: Sever contact with this person immediately. Don't you remember what happened last time, do you want to go through that experience again?
Fe: *bullshit-disguise/better-things-to-do mode activated*

I would imagine so, one of my greatest strengths is to forgive. :) I'm however not perfect in it unfortunately. When it comes to "at the moment" when I am with someone, I tend to think about the consequences in the future, and think about "is it really worth it?" In my point of view, what's the point of not forgiving if you find that they're not trying to offend you?
 

Honor

girl with a pretty smile
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
1,580
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?
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so
I expect unforgiveness to manifest especially in ISFJs more than other types, but again that is a stereotype.

I imagine:
Fe: "Oh, hello again."
Si: Sever contact with this person immediately. Don't you remember what happened last time, do you want to go through that experience again?
Fe: *bullshit-disguise/better-things-to-do mode activated*
^ really true for me
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
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ESTJ
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1w9
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sp/so
I agree with the folks so far who have said that Si and/or enneagram 1 make for the least forgiving people (though clearly every type can have very (un)forgiving people).

From an ESTJ 1 perspective: I relate 99% to what [MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] said earlier about character judgments:

My take as an ENFP 6... is that while I might forgive someone for what they've done because I have fairly universal deep empathy... I might not want to have them back in my life. I think a lot of times it's character judgment and whether I feel like they're acting with love and kindness generally and what they did was an aberration, or if their outlook is hateful and their action was consistent with that outlook, in which case I'd prefer to avoid them.

...(insert example here)... And so... while I do not carry any anger... I also don't want to associate with someone who is ___.
With the difference being that I would almost definitely still carry anger. I realized recently that I hold a whole lot of grudges, but repress 90% of them -- not entirely sure why, but probably to maintain a positive outlook on life and to be a "good" person.

As far as I can tell, the times I have entirely forgiven people have been when they regretted what they did to me AND reversed the behavior that caused my grudge (not one or the other) -- or, when I found out after my grudge developed that they didn't know what they were doing/didn't know any better/there was a legitimate extenuating circumstance. Note that each of these two paths to forgiveness require a change in character judgment: either they were "bad" and improved, or they were enough out of control that "good" and "bad" cannot apply.
 

Showbread

climb on
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Oct 3, 2013
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3w2
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so/sp
^ really true for me

Me too. I usually end up forgiving though, I think. Although, trust takes a while to be re-earned. Even if I have forgiven someone if the offense was something big it typically still changes my relationship with them.
 
R

Riva

Guest
This hypocrisy leapt out at me as I read through the thread. I see myself as unforgiving, but noticed that I felt grated by posts of other people who claim to be the same way. At the core, forgiveness feels like a dignifying thing, and I leaned toward too forgiving as a schoolkid, but now something self-protective lies on top of that. It prompted reflection on how I interpret conflict situations.

What I discovered was the imbalance is due to seeing others' transgressions in an overly self-absorbed light. When I am harmed, I focus on how it reflects on who I am. I am toxically averse to being that person who doesnt take responsibility for the course of their lives, so when something bad happens, my habit is to flee from that victim image and hold myself entirely responsible unless/until evidence proves otherwise. Rationally, most problems take two, but I assume that the other party's responsibility is their own business to calculate and process just like my part is mine. So, it's disproportinally about what I let happen, who I allowed under my skin, how I failed to foresee a hazard, what it all says about me. Fool me once, shame on me; fool me twice...happened a few times, never again.

Looks like we cannot forgive anyone if we are unable to forgive ourselves. :huh: Definitely something to rethink in how I live.

So if someone wrongs you you hold yourself responsible unless proven otherwise? I think this would be easier if it's a matter of emotional hurt.

The latter part suggests that it could be related to any kind of unfairness. Anyway when it happens first you try to blame yourself for letting it happen (I don't even know how it is even possible but you did use the word habit somewhere) but if happens again you never forgive/let it happen again?

For some reason I find it hard to keep up with most INFJ posts. Probably because they are usually long-winded. Then again long-winded INFP posts I can keep up with though I can't relate to them at all. Their justifications/explanations though make rational sense and I can relate to those.

The justifications/explanations of INFJs doens't make much sense to me at all and I seldom can relate to them. Overall I can however tolerate/get along with INFJs more than with INFPs.

Why on earth am I mentioning all this here?
 

Galena

Silver and Lead
Joined
Mar 12, 2013
Messages
3,786
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4w5
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sx/so
So if someone wrongs you you hold yourself responsible unless proven otherwise? I think this would be easier if it's a matter of emotional hurt.

The latter part suggests that it could be related to any kind of unfairness. Anyway when it happens first you try to blame yourself for letting it happen (I don't even know how it is even possible but you did use the word habit somewhere) but if happens again you never forgive/let it happen again?
I was typing a response to this and quickly determined that you are right not to be able to follow it. You can't forgive or fail to forgive someone for something when you're loathe to hold them responsible, so we can take forgiveness off the table as a descriptor in that situation. A better one is avoidance. The worst came out in me around X person, so I don't want to get that close again. Could be not wanting to hurt them again, or more blatant self-service like not wanting to feel the shame of the situation again so badly that I'd freeze out everyone involved.

My post was a description of a dysfunctional behavior, and those so often have a way of contradicting themselves to death. Good call.

For some reason I find it hard to keep up with most INFJ posts. Probably because they are usually long-winded. Then again long-winded INFP posts I can keep up with though I can't relate to them at all. Their justifications/explanations though make rational sense and I can relate to those.

The justifications/explanations of INFJs doens't make much sense to me at all and I seldom can relate to them. Overall I can however tolerate/get along with INFJs more than with INFPs.

Why on earth am I mentioning all this here?
Describing things clearly is also just a particular weakness of mine. Ask questions when you have them. :yes: This particular time, maybe I subconsciously didn't want to be understood because I was describing a process that is actually pretty selfish. Sometimes we do explain to the point that it defeats the purpose, and de-abstracting this one lays its nature properly bare. Thanks for prompting me to do that. It means more than a short-winded post would have you think.
 

Aurora James

New member
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
54
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
MBTI:
Most Forgiving: Ne-doms and Se-doms
Least Forgiving: Fi-doms, if you've seriously violated their values

Enneagram:
Most Forgiving: 2, 7, 9
Least Forgiving: 1, 6, 8
 
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