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  1. #21
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NK258 View Post
    letting go and moving on absolutely happens after you forgive someone. It benefits you if you were to have the desire to shed your ego and the neurosis that bind you. e7 is future oriented to avoid pain. but that doesn't mean that pain isn't there. it actually caps your capacity to experience authentic joy and appreciation. not that you don't experience joy and appreciation but rather, it's fleeting ... I AM NOT saying you as in I know you personally. I am just regurgitating a few things off the top of my head from what I've read ... e7 is a gluttonous. It wants to taste everything. The benefit of practicing forgiveness hypothetically gives you the opportunity to grow in that, you are facing your fears (pain) and feeling them through till they are in the past. Increasing the depth of your relationships.
    i agree. and ENFPs are also very future-oriented, so i don't think all of it comes back to avoidance of pain for me. i also don't equate forgiveness of another person's actions with elimination of the pain they've caused me. if someone mistreats me, my first instinct is to put myself in their shoes. most of the time, people hurt others without intentionally doing so or because they themselves are hurting. that does *not* mean i am not hurt. but it does help me to understand the person and situation better, and i am able to confront them in a cool-headed way rather than reacting from my hurt feelings.

    from there, i can talk to the person about their behavior, and let them be responsible for it in the future. after that, my feelings are my responsibility. dealing with pain is a part of life. it's up to me to have whatever i need in place to deal with pain when it comes up, and to put myself in or remove myself from situations with pain risk in mind. now, the way i deal with pain is sometimes better than others. i can fall into less healthy behaviors when i'm dealing with my own hurt, but that's just something most people need to work on i think. not just e7.

    Disappointments and emotional hurts are going to happen regardless of any relationship. To not be open to feeling your hurts and thereby forgiving from cognitive (intellectual) understanding ... all of your relationships are running on a very superficial surface. Which puts you at a serious disadvantage. because when the shit hits the fan - you know who your real friends are. And there are countless people on this earth who have experienced first hand what it is like to have 300 plus friends one day, only to have ZERO the next. ... pain is inevitable. I can't understand why anyone would be comfortable and proud or happy to embrace the ego of their etype. It makes no sense and seems to be the illogical course of action.
    @bolded: i do not see these as mutually exclusive. i can truly and deeply feel my pain emotionally and still use cognitive (intellectual) understanding in dealing with the same situation. in my opinion, it's a balance of both that is healthiest. to be all hurt feelings and lash out irrationally is going to lead to regret more often than not. i don't hurt less by hurting others back. and that's exactly what would happen if i just let my feelings do the talking without letting my brain do some work as well.

    EDIT: another thought. relationships, especially the really intimate important ones, are about growing together. forgiveness is necessary for growth. how can we be working to be better if we're bound to all of our past mistakes? i fight guilt to keep myself looking for growth opportunities rather than giving up on myself and marinating in whatever mistakes i've made. since i need this in my own life, i do it for those i care about out of love for them, and to keep the relationship growing.

    However ... this is not to say you are doing that. And this is not to say I can truly understand your experience. because while the 2 and 7 are very similar. our core fears and motivations differ. My sincerest apologies if this came off the wrong way. not my intention at all!
    no worries. it's an interesting thing to think about, and i appreciate you challenging me to think deeper about it.

    DOUBLE EDIT: also, as Pe/Ji, my tendency is to take things as they are rather than assigning them a 'good' or 'bad' value. i've heard other ENFPs say they're a lot less easily offended than others, and that applies to me as well. i might see another person's behavior, and decide whether or not i want to behave like that in the future before deciding if they should or should not have done whatever they did.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  2. #22
    Senior Member NK258's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    EDIT: another thought. relationships, especially the really intimate important ones, are about growing together.
    I appreciate your input and clarity.

    This what I quoted right here ... I suppose at the end of the day, this is what I hold to be true. I just haven't found many people wanting to grow with me perhaps. I'm often just "replaced". It's a devilish pattern I've broken actually. I have literally strung my way back to the core. Over the last 6 years (which was the ending of the last person to grow with me, who passed away). which ironically, his passing away was the first crashing of what they refer to as "ego". there is nothing quite like the experience of being with someone 10 years, only to have them die before you ever had a chance to forgive them, or have them forgive you ...

    ever since, it's been troublesome for me. I've grieved and healed and fallen in love since. only that none of those persons ever broke their molds. They've all ended the connections in terrible heart ache; for both. (and as my point of orientation shifted 6 years ago) all ended with me unraveling (or unearthing) who I am behind the ego. And just .. it's disheartening. I feel as if I've missed the boat. I don't think I'm in a situation in life to be a candidate for someone to grow with ... it's too "hard". the challenge is too difficult. I'm too .... me. which is just, too much for most. despite the fact I like who I am. I don't know. I'm all sorts of fucked in head I guess. It's like, you can't go back to crawling after you learn to walk. but it's a lie to deny the fact we all miss the comfort of crawling.

    ignorance is bliss ...
    6w7 Sx/Sp (621 or 612. Same diff :p).

  3. #23
    WhoCares
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    Quote Originally Posted by NK258 View Post
    I guess that's the thing ... I don't get anything from an "outer" circle. Like, at all ... I'm incredibly nice etc. to everyone. The outer circle is the treatment I would give a stranger. Completely, disengaged bullshit. It's a chore.

    I find I am insatiably curious about people (not so much anymore) but for a long time, I used to "dig" and be so curious to get to know people to (and I'm afraid to b honest but I am going to be), know people to protect myself.
    . :p
    Actually then you understand my experience completely. Disengaged bullshit s all I ever feel for anyone. Its my normal mde of operation. I dont believe I've ever had a genuine like for anyone really. I have friends because its expcted of me not because I truly want them. People are for me in the most part, a problem to be managed at various levels of distance.

    I've never experienced what you call a natural curiouty for people. I ask questions out if social custom, not because I care about the answers. It all sounds incredibky harsh of me and maybe it is. but life has been for the main a series of painful mistakes where others have repeatedly taken advantage so this is how I survive the world. To be myself is to be ridiculed so I be this thing which mimics others but hasn't he same drive as others. Its a complex thing, I'd like to belong but I know belonging isnt possible fir me o then my next thing is to pretend so as to nit draw undue attention to myself and hide the fact I dont belong. And now that I think about it this has been true of every relationship I've ever had, even so called love relationships. How odd.

    So maybe I never forgive at all, and thats fine. Put me in the most unforgiving category, I'm cool with that.
    Likes Ellyn liked this post

  4. #24
    Senior Member NK258's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    Actually then you understand my experience completely. Disengaged bullshit s all I ever feel for anyone. Its my normal mde of operation. I dont believe I've ever had a genuine like for anyone really. I have friends because its expcted of me not because I truly want them. People are for me in the most part, a problem to be managed at various levels of distance.

    I've never experienced what you call a natural curiouty for people. I ask questions out if social custom, not because I care about the answers. It all sounds incredibky harsh of me and maybe it is. but life has been for the main a series of painful mistakes where others have repeatedly taken advantage so this is how I survive the world. To be myself is to be ridiculed so I be this thing which mimics others but hasn't he same drive as others.

    So maybe I never forgive at all, and thats fine. Put me in the most unforgiving category, I'm cool with that.
    and I relate to what you're saying here (in a way). but since my primary mode of desire is 2w1 sx dom ... I'm fucked. hahaha!

    okay I'll be honest because it's always easiest to relay concepts in a story or analogy. so I was thinking of a lot of my "ego" bullshit. literally the last 3 relationships were like rings of ego peeling away from me. the last of which I questioned my motivations of my "flirting". flirting teaches me a lot about a person. don't want to get on a diatribe about it but just trust me on that. anyways, I asked myself, why would I flirt with men I have no interest in (aside from the feeling of feeling wanted etc.). and it dawned on me. wow. I'm an asshole. it's because I'm collecting information. and since I want to be a good partner, I want to know what men are, what makes them tick, what fills there needs etc. how fucked up! so I probably lost you by now but the point is, if you're following. is that the very thing I was doing was preventing me from actually carrying on a relationship. because not all men are the same. and instead of allowing myself to be in a vulnerable position .. I was armoring myself with knowledge that at the end of the day, was pointless. so sure, I can walk into a room and seduce everyone to want to be my friend and I can sit there all pumped I can seduce powerful men who at the end the day, don't really know me, nor truly love me. and the ones I DON'T do that with - the ones I DIDN'T "seduce" with pure facade ... disengage because I hurt their feelings by my very own way of being.

    I'm like the calalyst to conjure up their unresolved issues. I even toss them the insight they may or may not use to heal. They heal, and move on. It's like, "thanks bitch! you've just resolved my inner dysfunct. see ya later asshole!" .. and to be honest. I don't blame them. of course, I'm all "booo hoo". but really, let's be real. sitting there all huffy puffy saying "I'm unforgiving" isn't breeding a sense of inner content. It's armor we wear to protect ourselves. It's all ridiculous! I hate people! humans are so stupid!!!

    Like in highschool. we all dress up in these costumes while we try to find out who we are. and then when we find out who we are, the next challenge is to take off the costumes. but most never do. maybe the goal for me is to find someone dressed in the same costume as me. :p

    I'm a vampire. If you let me bite and feed off you we'll get along. Just a nominal amount from the back of your arm to keep me alive every now and then will do ... what do you think? ... I can just imagine the look on some dudes face. Bitch. You be crazy! LOL!

    seriously. I gotta get back to work. working online is bullshit. I'm so distracted today talking to people I don't know.

    this is weird. why does it amuse me so much is the question! hahaha!
    6w7 Sx/Sp (621 or 612. Same diff :p).

  5. #25
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NK258 View Post
    This what I quoted right here ... I suppose at the end of the day, this is what I hold to be true. I just haven't found many people wanting to grow with me perhaps. I'm often just "replaced". It's a devilish pattern I've broken actually. I have literally strung my way back to the core. Over the last 6 years (which was the ending of the last person to grow with me, who passed away). which ironically, his passing away was the first crashing of what they refer to as "ego". there is nothing quite like the experience of being with someone 10 years, only to have them die before you ever had a chance to forgive them, or have them forgive you ...
    Wow! this is very powerful...and heartbreaking.

    I am of the mindset that forgiveness is a gift I give myself AND the person. I don't want to hold onto this negative energy that consumes my soul in the end. I think also being an e9 does have the benefit of allowing myself to see another's perspective and once I can understand that perspective, I can forgive. (I do have to be careful that I don't merge with that perspective, but can see it as distinct from my own). Again, this may be rooted deep in the e9 psyche, but I truly believe that we are all struggling to find our path, and sometimes we seriously f*** up and we need to hear that we hurt someone, but then we have to be able to move forward.

    Being able to forgive is something I seek and value highly in my mate.
    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From up and down and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all

    Joni Mitchell

  6. #26
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    A lot of folks have mentioned 9s as being some of the more forgiving. That's what you'd think, and it's more or less accurate--9s have the capacity to let a lot of stuff just "go".

    They can also be unforgiving, though, once something is locked into their psyches. There's that sort of inertia and resistance to reality in less healthy 9s and if they decide something's no good, well, that's just the way it is. Forever.

    Case in point--my stepfather (9w1) decided very early on that I was a danger to his inner peace and moved against me. We were enemies for quite awhile. Finally, around the age of 17-20, I grew up and decided we could settle our differences like adults. So, I spent years trying to rebuild our foundation, and in the end, blows came to (literal) blows when he decided to do a 9-Rage on me one day. He drew in all this stuff from when I was 9 years old about how I was criminally insane (I was a tempermental brat; criminal, no) and blah blah.

    After the fight, I realized that basically the guy hated me and was always going to because it was firmly established in his mind that I was evil and dangerous. He was incapable of growing past things I had long since left behind me. Everything I'd tried to build with him was basically a lie and he had no intention of forgiving my bratty childhood self.

    So, 9s can be unforgiving too, at least deep inside.

    My larger point is that I think any type can be unforgiving, but what gets forgiven (or unforgiven) depends on the issue involved. In my stepfather's case, he couldn't forgive the fact that I disturbed his inner peace.

  7. #27
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    entps never forget, like elephants.

  8. #28
    Senior Member NK258's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    My larger point is that I think any type can be unforgiving, but what gets forgiven (or unforgiven) depends on the issue involved. In my stepfather's case, he couldn't forgive the fact that I disturbed his inner peace.
    Yeah ... That's my problem (though maybe not quite in the same way). But, I disturb inner peace. And I
    Don't know I do it. But then I feel the reaction and it triggers me to feel insecure. And then I do the 2 thing and move closer and just fuck things up while chillin in my blind spot. And when it's all said and done, I'm more self aware. But so sad and I really don't remember the last time someone said, "your fine. don't worry about it". The twisted part is, I'm really really trying not to be stupid. But for some reason, something about my way of being disturbs people's inner peace and it's like this domino effect. I so very rarely open up to people (minus the bullshit), but when I do, this happens and in the end, I feel serious sorrow that I do something bad but I'm not quite sure what it is.

    I guess it's an individual thing and not type for someone to choose to forgive. I think I just need to let go and not let it bother me so much when people don't. If they don't. Doesn't help I'm a magnet for people who don't communicate. :p damn Si or Fi. (That's me blaming the other party for old times sake. Ha!) anyways. Maybe I don't give people enough room to forgive. Who knows. Not gonna lie. I've hit rock bottom. Ego opposed to alcohol. I think I'm crazy. Lol!!
    6w7 Sx/Sp (621 or 612. Same diff :p).

  9. #29
    Senior Member NK258's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    entps never forget, like elephants.
    I never forget. But I forgive. I thought it was a female thing whereas men don't forgive but forget. Isn't that how the cliche goes? :p
    6w7 Sx/Sp (621 or 612. Same diff :p).

  10. #30
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NK258 View Post
    I never forget. But I forgive. I thought it was a female thing whereas men don't forgive but forget. Isn't that how the cliche goes? :p
    Must be a inferior Fe thing, I usually forget everything thats right. But when it hurt, I dont forget and I dont regret any decisions made from there.

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