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  1. #11
    Senior Member NK258's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    I'm a forgiving person but I dont forget. I forgive in that I dont want that experience to hold more sovereignty over me than necessary therefore I will not hold onto it. I dont hang onto negative feelings or recrimination nor do I plot veangeance. But I do not forget this person's less desirable characteristic and am wary of them forevermore. If it is someone who had a close relationship with me, they are now on the outer. No more intimacy, just benign acquaintances now.

    I would like to believe that people grow and change, experience tells me however that they rarely do. Forgiveness of a foible in todays society is less an opportunity to grow and more an invitation to the same behaviour repeating itself. I grow through the experience as much as I can but I dont keep the vulnerability open any longer. Its very much a one shot process with me. Once you prove to me you are untrustworthy I will not give you my trust ever again. I wont hate you, or snub you necessarily, but you will never have an opportunity to be close to me after that point.
    Is it really forgiveness if you hold it against them?
    6w7 Sx/Sp (621 or 612. Same diff :p).

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by NK258 View Post
    Is it really forgiveness if you hold it against them?
    Hold it against them? Thats debatable. I'm not blaming them or seeking redress. But I am now in knowledge of the fact they have this trait and it would be imprudent of me to allow the same thing to happen again in the same way. If you suddenly found out your friend was a comlusive gambler, would you lend them money again after becoming aware of that fact?

    Unforgiving to me, is to clinging to a position of blame. You can recognise a shortcoming in someone without necessarily blaming them for the ill that came of it. By the same token, does forgiveness require that you make yourself available to the same type of abuse again? Not in my book, that would be martyrdom.
    Likes Ellyn liked this post

  3. #13
    Senior Member NK258's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    Hold it against them? Thats debatable. I'm not blaming them or seeking redress. But I am now in knowledge of the fact they have this trait and it would be imprudent of me to allow the same thing to happen again in the same way. If you suddenly found out your friend was a comlusive gambler, would you lend them money again after becoming aware of that fact?
    In that specific incident I might not lend them money, but I would still be a friend to them. If they asked for money, I'd be like, "dude" and give them a look or laugh at them. But that's because I suck as a friend I guess. Lol! I don't know! I don't know anything anymore! (Seriously)

    If it was a trait they became aware of and didn't do that anymore (because I knew them and trusted them), I wouldn't not be friends with them. Humans suck. Who am I to say my flaws are okay and other people's flaws are not ?


    However ... I think this makes it clear the question is convoluted when we start considering the "what" we are forgiving. I have a line. There are absolutely things that would be too much to forgive if it weren't someone significantly close to me. So maybe that makes this entire thread silly now .. Lol!

    No surprise there. I started it. :p
    6w7 Sx/Sp (621 or 612. Same diff :p).

  4. #14
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    Hmmm. I can see where you'd think that my removing someone from my inner circle to my outer circle would seem like unfriending them. But thats not how I view it. I could still be friends with someone while maintaining a certain distance from them. The difference would be internal within me rather than external. I would still keep company with them, chat about the same things and even help them out. But what I wouldn't do is allow them the same kind of access to my vulnerabilities as they had before. I would now be mor guarded about that aspect we had a negative experience with.

    If a friend for example betrayed my confidence with a work matter. My internal wall would now require me to filter any conversations in regards to my work with that person now. Whereas before I may have confided anything, I now know that subject isn't safe with that person and keep certain aspects to myself. From their perspective nothing much has changed in our relationship. They dont know what I'm not telling them now.

    Its hard for me to express my concept fully because its an internal mechanism with me thats largely automatic. All that I know is that yes you can make errors and I wont necessarily see you as a diminished person, but I will now take your foible into a account in our future interactions.
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  5. #15
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    I'm gonna say I'm the most forgiving person I know. That's an objective statement and you can't prove it wrong

    And I think it's cause of the 7 wing.

    If there is really a correlation to this, and type I would love to know...

    Cause I'm pretty sick of people that are not forgiving. It's the reason I refuse to look for a mate.

    I just want ppl to get over it. I find resentment to be disgusting, like a disease.

    I like to be a moving force, and nothing's going to stand in my way, including my own, or others, emotions.

    I hate that shit.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
    Unapologetically bonding in an uninhibited, propelled manner
    10w12

  6. #16
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    I can be quite forgiving. I'll hold a grudge but not for very long. I don't know if it's a common thing for other ISFP's. My mom is ESFP and she can have a very hard time forgiving people actually. My INTJ dad is more like me.

    EDIT: Oh we were talking Enneagram. Well it's still the same. My mom is 2w3, my dad is 5w6.
    4w5-9w1-5w4

  7. #17
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    i was kinda thinking what @Urarienev said about e7.

    i'm pretty forgiving. but, while i like to think that i try to see people holistically, being influenced by a variety of situations and factors, and believe that people are generally just doing the best they can with what they've got, i'd be remiss to say that forgiveness of others doesn't benefit me.

    e7 is future-oriented, forward moving. it's impossible to move forward and to look toward the future if you're ruminating in the past. i much prefer to let it go and move on.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  8. #18
    Senior Member NK258's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    Hmmm. I can see where you'd think that my removing someone from my inner circle to my outer circle would seem like unfriending them. But thats not how I view it. I could still be friends with someone while maintaining a certain distance from them. The difference would be internal within me rather than external. I would still keep company with them, chat about the same things and even help them out. But what I wouldn't do is allow them the same kind of access to my vulnerabilities as they had before. I would now be mor guarded about that aspect we had a negative experience with.

    If a friend for example betrayed my confidence with a work matter. My internal wall would now require me to filter any conversations in regards to my work with that person now. Whereas before I may have confided anything, I now know that subject isn't safe with that person and keep certain aspects to myself. From their perspective nothing much has changed in our relationship. They dont know what I'm not telling them now.

    Its hard for me to express my concept fully because its an internal mechanism with me thats largely automatic. All that I know is that yes you can make errors and I wont necessarily see you as a diminished person, but I will now take your foible into a account in our future interactions.

    I guess that's the thing ... I don't get anything from an "outer" circle. Like, at all ... I'm incredibly nice etc. to everyone. The outer circle is the treatment I would give a stranger. Completely, disengaged bullshit. It's a chore. And I would never go out of my way to seek it out. If I'm having that dynamic with someone, it's for work (networking for work) or maintaining an acquaintance for mutual gain. But there would be no point in that unless there were mututal friends, or a mutual work interest there etc.

    I find I am insatiably curious about people (not so much anymore) but for a long time, I used to "dig" and be so curious to get to know people to (and I'm afraid to b honest but I am going to be), know people to protect myself. I'm a 258. So for a long time, my engagement was quite literally, "collecting information". Long story short, the desire is gone. It's like someone shut a light switch off. I have absolutely no desire because I know why I was doing some behaviors (it was as if they were habit). This is sounding cryptic. hahaha! .. but yeah. I'm a 2w1 Sx Dom. I've spent years being myself and hiding all my "dark". Which is pretty much the fact that I'm stingy with what I know. And I have this map (catalog) in my head ... and I'm just trying to relax, not be afraid, and get used to moving throughout the world uninhibited.

    I think what I find curious is the forgiving factor because for me ... I tend to emotionally detach and analyze experiences (behaviors). Not so much feel them. I'm only "feeling" my emotions in the moment. As is. If that makes any sense ... anyways, I think I might be thinking about this whole concept because I'm in a period of berating myself. hahaha! ... again. Just being honest. It's the customary thing to do ... superego stuff. :p
    6w7 Sx/Sp (621 or 612. Same diff :p).

  9. #19
    Senior Member NK258's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    i was kinda thinking what @Urarienev said about e7.

    i'm pretty forgiving. but, while i like to think that i try to see people holistically, being influenced by a variety of situations and factors, and believe that people are generally just doing the best they can with what they've got, i'd be remiss to say that forgiveness of others doesn't benefit me.

    e7 is future-oriented, forward moving. it's impossible to move forward and to look toward the future if you're ruminating in the past. i much prefer to let it go and move on.

    letting go and moving on absolutely happens after you forgive someone. It benefits you if you were to have the desire to shed your ego and the neurosis that bind you. e7 is future oriented to avoid pain. but that doesn't mean that pain isn't there. it actually caps your capacity to experience authentic joy and appreciation. not that you don't experience joy and appreciation but rather, it's fleeting ... I AM NOT saying you as in I know you personally. I am just regurgitating a few things off the top of my head from what I've read ... e7 is a gluttonous. It wants to taste everything. The benefit of practicing forgiveness hypothetically gives you the opportunity to grow in that, you are facing your fears (pain) and feeling them through till they are in the past. Increasing the depth of your relationships.

    Disappointments and emotional hurts are going to happen regardless of any relationship. To not be open to feeling your hurts and thereby forgiving from cognitive (intellectual) understanding ... all of your relationships are running on a very superficial surface. Which puts you at a serious disadvantage. because when the shit hits the fan - you know who your real friends are. And there are countless people on this earth who have experienced first hand what it is like to have 300 plus friends one day, only to have ZERO the next. ... pain is inevitable. I can't understand why anyone would be comfortable and proud or happy to embrace the ego of their etype. It makes no sense and seems to be the illogical course of action.


    However ... this is not to say you are doing that. And this is not to say I can truly understand your experience. because while the 2 and 7 are very similar. our core fears and motivations differ. My sincerest apologies if this came off the wrong way. not my intention at all!
    Last edited by NK258; 02-03-2014 at 10:04 AM. Reason: the usual typo
    6w7 Sx/Sp (621 or 612. Same diff :p).

  10. #20
    Senior Member NK258's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post

    If there is really a correlation to this, and type I would love to know...
    Me too!

    I'm starting to wonder if maybe instincts are the more determining factor in a persons motivation to developing compassion (and forgiveness) etc. as opposed to MBTI or enneagram .. which btw, I was curious of both. To be honest, some of the most empathetic people I've met have been thinker types over feeler types. So just because a person is a "feeler" doesn't mean they are at an advantage by any means. I'm not saying thinker types have more empathy either necessarily ... so what I'm speculating at this point is that maybe instincts would be the primary factor. Followed by cognitive functions and/or enneagram.

    I have no idea why my brain likes to pick at stuff like this. It's just intellectual masturbation ...

    It really isn't payin the bills. I should go back to work. LOL!!!
    6w7 Sx/Sp (621 or 612. Same diff :p).

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