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[Tritype] 458 Enneagram Tritype – The Scholar Archetype

Alea_iacta_est

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[MENTION=14840]Hypatia[/MENTION], I usually get somewhat angry when people are treated unjustly/unfairly, the cruel and unusual punishment kind of thing. Like if someone doesn't deserve something. I don't care if the person is hurt by someone unless it's completely undeserved, in which case I usually side with the victim.

I get extremely angry if people question my logic or ideas with derisive comments that don't have any logical basis. I sort of internalize my anger and let it seep slowly into the environment, warning those who dare continue their onslaught, I feel like the best way to relieve my anger is to intimidate others, it's sort of like a guilty sadistic pleasure. I probably would qualify for Passive Aggressive PD if it were still in the DSM.

I've never gotten explosive violent at people before, but I have at stressful things such as way too much schoolwork, at which point I just release it all in a bundle of energy and possibly the throwing of a shoe at a wall.
 
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small.wonder

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[MENTION=14840]Hypatia[/MENTION] That's a great question, quite a bit makes me frustrated and sometimes that escalates to anger. I am not really a stranger to totally flipping out, I am a 4 after all. It's funny, when people think of a 4 being emotional they tend to picture sadness and woe. There is some of that but the intensity applies to all emotions, anger included.

Things that might make me angry: misunderstandings caused by bad communication, passive aggression, mistreatment, arrogance, deceit, disrespect, apathy, hypocrisy, and more. Those are all circumstantial of course, and again it's more frustration that I experience (which tends to give way to anger if I don't feel heard).

What I do when I'm angry: I'm generally very direct about expressing frustration, anger or any negative feeling by confronting the people involved. I consider myself a relatively healthy individual so I'm usually able to funnel these negative emotions into productive action, and steps toward solving whatever is making me angry. There are of course times when talking it out isn't feasible, an example: I volunteer with high school students who, when in large groups, are sometimes prone to rudely talking over those trying to speak. I don't hesitate to raise my voice to ask for quiet and respect in those kinds of situations.

Then there are those times when my health dips and I lose it. Those times are not pretty and I usually apologize for it afterwards. I still speak my mind but with far too much sarcasm and hurtful, cutting remarks-- I have learned the hard way that I truly can tear others to shreds with my words. That's caused me a lot of remorse and I've learned to be careful about what I say in anger. I also have thrown or destroyed things when unhealthily angry, which I feel stupid about later. There's also angry ranting, slamming doors and such.

I'm happy to answer specific questions if you have them.
 

valaki

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Hey nice thread, I'm still sort of undecided about 4-5-8 vs 4-7-8. Can there not be a quadtype of 4-5-7-8 lol


Are you guys sort of ambiverted as well? The description talks about how we are "somewhat" introverted. I find that if I'm at home or by myself, I tend to want to stay that way, yet if I'm out with people, I'll tend to stay that way (until I get back home), like the Newtonian Law of Physics. The only strange part of that is that I put on a social facade to conceal my inner intensity and antisocial-esque thoughts, though it could just be that I adapted to survive by becoming more social though.

Hey I relate to the part about the ambiversion. I don't put on a social facade though, how do you do it? The only way I could do it is by inhibiting myself and I'm just not willing to do that for long. Meh I'd hate that.

Why do you feel the need to conceal your intensity btw?


Also, whenever I feel that I am getting angry, I have to hold myself back with self-control because otherwise I would have probably killed someone by now. The way I usually get around it is by imaging myself beating the shit out of my adversary or just imagining me breaking stuff. It feels like anger is pulsating through my veins and that if I don't stop myself I'm going to break something to pieces. Luckily, I'm really good at self-control by bartering with myself that I will get the person back subtly and vengefully later.

Do you actually do get back at the person later? If yes mind telling some anecdotes of how you did that? ;)

Oh and I relate to the ways you handle your 4 fix, it makes sense it being the last fix, same for me. I don't show it to anyone at all, save for a few special declarations on how I see myself, and I like writing too.


The worst thing about being 5 first then 8 is the fact that 5's are infamous for having a crippling anxiety, which I do suffer from. However, because the 8 is there and makes me cope well under pressure and think calmly, I have the awkward tendency to have the anxiety affect only my body to where I turn beet red and start shaking uncontrollably, but my mind is perfectly clear at the same time.

Lol you must look funny. I'm usually calm in both body and mind when under pressure, body usually feels energized and mind is focused without thinking, or call it deliberate gut-based thinking. It happened before that as a sort of afterthought, like, after the whole situation was already dealt with, I consciously noticed some residual of adrenaline. I however prefer not to focus on that and I'm sure that's part of why I don't notice any effects of it while I'm in action.


A) I don't see anyone I know, so I sit by myself. This is completely comfortable for me, but intimidates others from approaching me.

I can do that myself but it is not comfortable for me so I don't stay that way for long.


Then there are those times when my health dips and I lose it. Those times are not pretty and I usually apologize for it afterwards. I still speak my mind but with far too much sarcasm and hurtful, cutting remarks-- I have learned the hard way that I truly can tear others to shreds with my words. That's caused me a lot of remorse and I've learned to be careful about what I say in anger. I also have thrown or destroyed things when unhealthily angry, which I feel stupid about later. There's also angry ranting, slamming doors and such.

Eh why feel stupid about it later... :p unless you mean it costs you too much to replace things etc.


What makes you angry? What do you do about it?

If an obstacle is in my way for too long or if I didn't get something I wanted -> frustration -> quick and strong explosion of anger. I have to act it out physically through action. I have a really really low tolerance for frustration. It happens quite a few times daily.

If the situation is very important for some reason, I will skip the above line of anger development and just straight go to rage.

If someone treats me the wrong way -> angry response to them -> can escalate, depending.

What is meant by wrong treatment; stuff like small.wonder mentioned earlier, about disrespect, passive aggression and bad communication.

I feel best with anger if it's more anger than frustration because it's very energising without having the negative feeling from frustration.
 

Alea_iacta_est

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Hey nice thread, I'm still sort of undecided about 4-5-8 vs 4-7-8. Can there not be a quadtype of 4-5-7-8 lol




Hey I relate to the part about the ambiversion. I don't put on a social facade though, how do you do it? The only way I could do it is by inhibiting myself and I'm just not willing to do that for long. Meh I'd hate that.

Why do you feel the need to conceal your intensity btw?




Do you actually do get back at the person later? If yes mind telling some anecdotes of how you did that? ;)

Oh and I relate to the ways you handle your 4 fix, it makes sense it being the last fix, same for me. I don't show it to anyone at all, save for a few special declarations on how I see myself, and I like writing too.




Lol you must look funny. I'm usually calm in both body and mind when under pressure, body usually feels energized and mind is focused without thinking, or call it deliberate gut-based thinking. It happened before that as a sort of afterthought, like, after the whole situation was already dealt with, I consciously noticed some residual of adrenaline. I however prefer not to focus on that and I'm sure that's part of why I don't notice any effects of it while I'm in action.

I feel the need to put on a facade because I fear that if my intensity shows, I will be outcast as a weak, disillusioned fool, but at the same time, I feel as though my intensity would utterly destroy anything they have ever contemplated. It's a matter of weighing the risks. Plus, I don't like sharing my feelings with others for fear of rejection (double rejection trifix, hooray).

I will divulge one anecdote:

In highschool, I was a member of the marching band (which where I live, are well respected and extremely athletic, competing in many different sports), and my section leader completely embarrassed me in front of a person I liked, pissing me off completely (we are actually still really good friends then and now). I held back from punching him in the face (though I played the outcome in my head several times), and waited. When we went out to the field, we lined up on the track like we did everyday, but I had offered to take his instrument out to the track for him. After I arrived to the track, I immediately disassembled his instrument and placed the pieces in the field in between the track. When we formed up, the director noticed that my section leader's instrument was missing and he didn't know where it was, so the director made him run a few miles and do some push ups (he was a long-distance runner in track, and I pointed that fact out to my director, so he thought my section leader needed some upper body work out as well) around the track and then reassemble his instrument. He wasn't even mad, he just accepted it and realized that it was fair.
 

valaki

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I feel the need to put on a facade because I fear that if my intensity shows, I will be outcast as a weak, disillusioned fool, but at the same time, I feel as though my intensity would utterly destroy anything they have ever contemplated. It's a matter of weighing the risks. Plus, I don't like sharing my feelings with others for fear of rejection (double rejection trifix, hooray).

I don't understand why intensity would make you look like a weak fool, do you just mean the intensity of your 4's fix though? Because I was originally reading this as the 8's brand of intensity :)

I don't understand the bolded either. Elaborate?


I will divulge one anecdote:

In highschool, I was a member of the marching band (which where I live, are well respected and extremely athletic, competing in many different sports), and my section leader completely embarrassed me in front of a person I liked, pissing me off completely (we are actually still really good friends then and now). I held back from punching him in the face (though I played the outcome in my head several times), and waited. When we went out to the field, we lined up on the track like we did everyday, but I had offered to take his instrument out to the track for him. After I arrived to the track, I immediately disassembled his instrument and placed the pieces in the field in between the track. When we formed up, the director noticed that my section leader's instrument was missing and he didn't know where it was, so the director made him run a few miles and do some push ups (he was a long-distance runner in track, and I pointed that fact out to my director, so he thought my section leader needed some upper body work out as well) around the track and then reassemble his instrument. He wasn't even mad, he just accepted it and realized that it was fair.

AHHAH good one! :p Cool about his response as well.
 

Alea_iacta_est

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I don't understand why intensity would make you look like a weak fool, do you just mean the intensity of your 4's fix though? Because I was originally reading this as the 8's brand of intensity :)

I don't understand the bolded either. Elaborate?

I am afraid that others will see me as undeservingly narcissistic, which I am to some degree and not to other degrees (in those degrees, deservingly narcissistic). I don't want to make strong claims or showcase my inner storm without knowing how others will react to it, as they might simply laugh it off as if it were nothing but a ploy for attention or a child's folly. I need to be seen as strong, powerful, and confident by others, but at the same time, I need to be respected, so I must keep some things to myself to maintain my ethos.

The bolded part is a reflection and a counter-position to my belief that I will be seen as weak by others, that perhaps the opposite is true and that my intensity will be so strong that they will be utterly intimidated by the depth of my inner world.
 

valaki

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I am afraid that others will see me as undeservingly narcissistic, which I am to some degree and not to other degrees (in those degrees, deservingly narcissistic). I don't want to make strong claims or showcase my inner storm without knowing how others will react to it, as they might simply laugh it off as if it were nothing but a ploy for attention or a child's folly. I need to be seen as strong, powerful, and confident by others, but at the same time, I need to be respected, so I must keep some things to myself to maintain my ethos.

The bolded part is a reflection and a counter-position to my belief that I will be seen as weak by others, that perhaps the opposite is true and that my intensity will be so strong that they will be utterly intimidated by the depth of my inner world.

so this is pretty 4&5 sx-ish stuff, this inner world thingie?
 

Draumande Romvesen

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The tritype 458 is hard to find descriptions and informations on. I feel like I would not get along with someone who is too similar to me because we would both turn away from each other to be alone. We would both push each other way, like I do with others.
 

Entropic

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so this is pretty 4&5 sx-ish stuff, this inner world thingie?

I don't think that's necessarily related to 4 or 5 or sx. I'. m 845 and I don't relate to the idea of having an inner world.

The tritype 458 is hard to find descriptions and informations on. I feel like I would not get along with someone who is too similar to me because we would both turn away from each other to be alone. We would both push each other way, like I do with others.

It's difficult to find descriptions on the tritypes in general, and especially good ones. I'll write up something about how it's like to me as a 845 some day, perhaps.
 

JocktheMotie

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I actually don't know if I'd be 548 or 584, and not completely sure how to tell.

Even though I don't really think Tri-type can offer me much.
 

secretowl

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source - Tri-type stacking 458/584/845, Do You Guys Exist or is it just me?!

*Darkest tritype-458, 854, 584 (particularly when 4 or 5 are in charge)

Also if you are still considering 548 (or 845): she said this is the the most intense type, particularly if sexual.

Didn't realize it was a contest except upon winning.
Goth-est Tritype ftw!

Pleased to share the ranks with a raptor-wizard. How apropos.
:explode:

Are you guys sort of ambiverted as well? The description talks about how we are "somewhat" introverted. I find that if I'm at home or by myself, I tend to want to stay that way, yet if I'm out with people, I'll tend to stay that way (until I get back home), like the Newtonian Law of Physics.
Nicely put.
 

secretowl

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source - Tri-type stacking 458/584/845, Do You Guys Exist or is it just me?!
(EIDB 548 tritype discussion thread: The Enneagram Institute Discussion Board - 5 4 8 Tritype ):

[Intense, especially with sx first. Independent, dark, cynical. Most eccentric, creative 5 that tends to swing between detachment and emotionality. Most 4ish 5, especially with four wing. Tough-minded, analytical 4 that is staunchly individualistic. Withdrawn, sensitive, creative 8. "Scholar" archetype if I remember correctly. Wants to know what makes people tick.

Prior to reading this, I felt a bit like a glitched-out 5. Prone to surrealism over realism, prone to art over math. Take all the economically viability of 5, wring them out, then throw in volatility, uncompromising individuality and add in a nice dash of 8 aggressiveness. Should have been a rogue samurai. Not cut out for the modern western world. Wish I had more focus for computer science, but only get moderately invested in simple game programming and visual tricks. Missing out on calculus lessons while drawing all over homework. Date a smoldery aloof nerd, cannot long conceal discomfittingly volatile passions and attachments. Should be reading Stephen Baxter & Sagan to be a proper intellectual, but reads Janet Fitch and Augusten Burroughs instead.
Btw, Sagan is godly, and very accessible, but the myopia of interpersonal dynamics is still somehow more compelling to me, in spite of good intentions. Fiction probably isn't as useful, as a rule, as nonfiction, yet I have a hard time curbing my preference for the former.

It's a dispiriting kind of INTP to be (in my case, though I see Alea Iacta Es is a fellow ILI), but it's somehow comforting, if only for the sake of taxonomy, that the Enneagram tritypes gave it a name.
But to be a bit optimistic about things, this hybrid mindset could inject an uncommon perspective in STEM fields. A.I.E. - are you in a career of any sort? Does any of this resonate with you?

source - Tri-type stacking 458/584/845, Do You Guys Exist or is it just me?!
While a 5-4-8 is likely to be an intellectual narcissist, I think any criticism that they are unable to change or adjust their view is the opposite of the case because there is an intense self-criticism as well. Change and flux are constant.
...
The greatest fluctuation I feel is between feeling incredibly hard and strong to being very self-conscious and inept. Strong and Vulnerable are my two modes, brought out when I feel I am unable to make that leap across the fragments of words and space between myself and someone I have an interest in.

In the past few months, the same person said,
"You know, most people have interesting lives. They're just not half so confident about it as you."
I said, "Yeah right." He was obviously talking about himself, because it wasn't applicable to anyone else. We were surrounded by super boring people. Recognizing this, it seemed best to be inflammatory, because it's hilarious.
Over the following months, I apologized for an array of flaws and miscommunications. He later said, "I don't think others see you at all the way you see yourself. And that's probably a good thing."

People tend to get distributed into one of two categories: insecure or confident. But there is reasonable sort of confidence which is bold enough to recognize one's own shortcomings and admit to them. To recognize, also, the likelihood that most of what you say and do will be interpreted independent of the way you attempt to frame it, but rather according to the solipsism and present contexts of those around you. Misinformation spreads according to gossip, etc. It's only reasonable to have doubts, and to question oneself and one's own environment. There's all kinds of perpetual subterranean influences, creeping around, wreaking havoc. The world is chaos, beyond our control or ability to comprehend it. So any person may be confident in their best skills relative to those around them, but only a moron is confident in every sense of the word, especially where the capricious commodities of fellow man are concerned. Some so-called insecurity is entirely reasonable, and in keeping with the goal of accountability.

source - Tri-type stacking 458/584/845, Do You Guys Exist or is it just me?!
But they are likely to outwardly repudiate that criticism, and then later modify their views accordingly rather than stubbornly retain their original position.
lol. Shh, no one must know.

source - Tri-type stacking 458/584/845, Do You Guys Exist or is it just me?!
My experience of this type is of course my only experience of any kind, so hard to be 'objective'. But here goes. I find it a complex, contradictory and often perplexing type to be. The 3 numbers pull against each other, and there is no social element(3, 6, or 9) to smooth the way. This is exacerbated if you have SO as your last stacking.
It's okay, Raptor Wizard, we're in this thing together......
....and simultaneously apart, somehow.

source - Tri-type stacking 458/584/845, Do You Guys Exist or is it just me?!
In a way, we are natural scholars but too scholarly, polymathic and restless for universities these days, which reward the careerist specialist.
Holy crap, man. Eerily true. How many majors have you had?
This increasing emphasis on specialization in most career fields, and an emphasis on degree-holding, is quite frustrating. There's little leeway to learn on the job and pick up trade skills as you go, due to the increasing number of people attending college. People look down their nose at career jumpers. You basically get pigeon-holed as an entrepreneur or career academic, if you're committed to intellectual flexibility. That's not to say that increased education & college attendance is a bad thing - not by a long shot - but this side-effect is a bit of a bummer.

source - Tri-type stacking 458/584/845, Do You Guys Exist or is it just me?!
5-4-8's have a predisposition to religion and philosophy, especially pessimistic and melancholic strains, but a commensurate disappointment with the lack of answers that satisfy us and a concomitant melancholy.
Three cheers for Epictetus!

source - Tri-type stacking 458/584/845, Do You Guys Exist or is it just me?!
I believe Nietzsche and Gurdjieff were of this tritype, though G may have had 7 instead of 5, but Katherine Fauvre very much agreed with me when I said there was something “Hermetic” about this tri-type.
...
I like to think of myself as an “ontological terrorist”. Nietzsche is a beautiful illustration of what I see as the gift of this tritype – of staring past the fragility in the conceptions humans, as living and rational beings, hope to cling to and look into something “under”, to poke around in [blocked due to guideline #4 violation], and reveal the beauty within it.
I'm not very familar with Gurdjieff, but I think Nitezsche is an excellent call & that would account for quite a few of his apparent self-contradictions, i.e. the incessant clash between his tendency to analyze & dissect the world and his resistance to doing exactly that; his drive to label things while all the while ridiculing labels; his love for language and his resentment toward its limitations. And he's quite a brusque, abrasive fellow, strangely aggressive given an overarching air of detachment - seems like some 8 on 5 action.

source - Tri-type stacking 458/584/845, Do You Guys Exist or is it just me?!
Hades operates under a kind of 854 archetypal pattern. There’s the destructive power and energy to produce an impact of 8, along with the “ground-up” construction and innovation of 5 with the creativity and will to rebirth of 4. Of course, that’s only there in the best examples of this tritype, a call the rest of us can only hope to live up to.
This is so cool! Grecian deity archetypes aren't dredged up in these discussions nearly enough, imo. And when they're applied to personality psychology, they're often only superficially addressed. Victoria Schmidt's book 45 Master Characters took the most comprehensive approach to this subject that I've seen, but I found the gender-bias toward masculine deities as male characters, etc., distractingly shortsighted. Hades does seem quite 854. As I was reading Schmidt's book, he seemed like a pretty solid IntJ. I recently discovered that INTJf is chock-full of 8/5s. Throw in a high neuroticism score, and maybe you get an 854...

source - Tri-type stacking 458/584/845, Do You Guys Exist or is it just me?!
I disagree with your point that 548s are not particularly concerned with objectivity, consistency, or interested in being accessible in any way. While these three values are pretty hard to attain, and difficult to define, they are pretty important to me, at least some of the time - and especially in any discrete intellectual task I want to complete.
Agreed. Data points are key.
Personally, however, not particularly concerned with accessibility. As an aside - neither was Nietzsche. I frequently create art that no one 'gets', comics with obscure punchlines, very annoying 'meta' stuff that only stimulates a wtf response in others while being only personally relevant, and it has been remarked that this should be curbed for commercial success, but thusfar, it's of little concern what others 'get' or don't. It's very impractical, if you consider the purpose of art to be visual communication. It's fine if you consider the objective of art to be unbridled self-expression. Either way, I'm not just trying to be a slick hipster affecting militant apathy; the apathy is real, and probably rather offensive to anyone sweet/cool enough to have some reasonable interest in understanding it. Pretty selfish, pretty annoying, yet ingrained. To do otherwise would be insincere, some passion might be lost in the process...hypothetically. *punches self in face*

source - Tri-type stacking 458/584/845, Do You Guys Exist or is it just me?!
5-4-8: more reactive and temperamental, such Fives find it harder to control their emotions than other tritypes. They are basically sensitive, reclusive and ingenious, occasionally indulging in (romantic) day-dreams and fantasies, but once in a while their fierce, visceral side reveals itself explosively and gets to surprise people who don’t know them well. These Fives are usually selfish and whimsical, considering themselves entitled to special treatment which they will sometimes claim aggressively. They are prone to mood swings and rage outbursts.
Special treatment, no, that's utter nonsense. I, at least, am pro-meritocracy, but don't automatically merit any sort of reward until demonstrating sufficient competence.
Mood swings, sure. Not sold on the rage outbursts, though. "Prone" is a strong word when it takes a hell of a lot to stimulate such a response. Any other 548s else enjoy a good scrap, now and then?
 

Kendrix

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^Yup. I mean, I try not to be, arrogance and entitlement is the worst and just skews your analysis of stuff.

Still, it's amazing how precise some of this stuff is down to what likely subjects of my writing/art are going to be. There should really be more stuff on Tri-Types - It kinda looks complicated but really isn't, there's just three options for each slot after all.
 

great_bay

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The worst person I've ever seen was this tri-type. She must have been a 4w5,5w4,8

She was really odious.
 

RobinSkye

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5-4-8: more reactive and temperamental, such Fives find it harder to control their emotions than other tritypes. They are basically sensitive, reclusive and ingenious, occasionally indulging in (romantic) day-dreams and fantasies, but once in a while their fierce, visceral side reveals itself explosively and gets to surprise people who don’t know them well. These Fives are usually selfish and whimsical, considering themselves entitled to special treatment which they will sometimes claim aggressively. They are prone to mood swings and rage outbursts.
typical subtypes: sexual, self-preserving, 5w4
similar tritypes: 5-8-4, 4-5-8
flavours: innovative, temperamental, egocentric and intense

5-8-4: original, rebellious, temperamental and highly individualistic and independent, these Fives are can be extremely self-focused and mostly unconcerned with other people’s feelings and wants. They are often inspired and have great vision which they strive to turn into reality – they have a practical side which helps them. Although brilliant and resourceful, others may find it hard to deal with their self-important, narcissistic behavior and their oversensitivity to frustration – their violent reactions can be scary.
typical subtypes: sexual, 5w4, 5w6 (counterphobic wing)
similar tritypes: 5-4-8, 8-5-4
flavours: resourceful, defiant, visionary and reactive

A good possibility for me, really. The "outbursts of uncontrollable emotion" aren't something I've had to experience much. It usually will only occur as a last resort with people, and it's usually effective from my perspective. I always though of that as an Fe outburst.
 
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