4s vs 8s

[Hate]

... So you're saying instead of fighting Amargith, I should team up with her and take over the world.

No. That’s a horrible idea.

There’s only one way for you and [MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION] to settle this… Mud-wrestling.

.I call dibs on being referee.

 

[Azure Flame]

Idunno kyuuei 4s usually win.

 

[wolfy]

No. That’s a horrible idea.

There’s only one way for you and Amargith to settle this… Mud-wrestling.

I call dibs on being referee.

You be ref. I'll prepare water, sponges and towels.

 

[kyuuei]

Masochist always has the power.

I was more referring to the title.. I don't know if I can agree with the idea of sadism vs masochism bit.. it brings an odd element to the table.

Beating me at anything involving creativity or concepts would be difficult. If music is involved, you're dead meat.. the end.

I can't beat you with music. It isn't heavy enough.

Admittedly, I think I remember reading that you were in the military? So physically, you might have a one-up on me. My type 8 friend is a multiple martial arts expert, and he can beat me at physical things and coach me, but I challenge & help him with other stuff, and we balance well. Physically, I'm no push-over, weakling or wimp. But 8s are usually invested in some physical expertise which gives them a one -up, whereas my expertise is in the creative realm. However - 4s are surrounded by competency types (3, 5 and line to 1) and very bent on our personal significance. So if there's a 4 invested in some physical arts, she could have a chance of kicking the ass of an equally invested 8; I don't see why not. I can kick the ass of a few 8s at hand-eye coordination stuff that I'm good at, like music or Super Mario. ;D

You sound like a pretty strong person--it takes a lot to come back strong from something that nearly kills you.

If you want, you can come be on Amargith and I's team. We can all take over the world. Then free dessert.

Part of the reason I mistyped so many times is the whole "4s are weak" bit. It's beyond complete and utter bullshit. And it's not just me. My 4w5 friend kicked the ass of his 8 buddy (who was pretty badass himself) in physical and verbal fights, and musically... practically in his sleep.

It's just the stereotypes. I'm sure there are INFPs that don't like cats somewhere. I'm almost sure there are type 7s that have stable normal relationships. And type 8s frequently get mistyped as being overly controlling, or somehow a super hero or something, or neurotic sounding. It happens.

*leans against the wall*

I'll keep them off balance and distracted while you take 'em out.

We'd be unstoppable together.

I agree. We may have a recruit, pending an interview.. We'll need someone to make the desserts and handle the light work and lesser super heroes that try to stop us.

No. That’s a horrible idea.

There’s only one way for you and Amargith to settle this… Mud-wrestling.

There isn't nearly enough mud in there! Plus, jello tastes better. Also, everyone knows Amargith would win because she'd use her sexy powers and I'd be a total prude and give up on principle before being in an awkward situation I can't handle.

Idunno kyuuei 4s usually win.

Not on my watch. Just wait until I start teleporting.

 

[Hate]

You be ref. I'll prepare water, sponges and towels.

Haha... excellent. You always got my back, wolfy.

There isn't nearly enough mud in there! Plus, jello tastes better.

That's an even better idea. Jello wrestling it is. Done. I'm changing the setup.

Also, everyone knows Amargith would win because she'd use her sexy powers and I'd be a total prude and give up on principle before being in an awkward situation I can't handle.

You're not giving up on anything, damnit. I already sold 127 tickets at $15 a piece. And since you're so insistent on teaming up with Amargith, then I'm changing the lineup. You and Amargith vs. Me and wolfy. Either way, someone's getting into that jello.

Otherwise, there's going to be riots.

 

[kyuuei]

You're not giving up on anything, damnit. I already sold 127 tickets at $15 a piece. And since you're so insistent on teaming up with Amargith, then I'm changing the lineup. You and Amargith vs. Me and wolfy. Either way, someone's getting into that jello.

Otherwise, there's going to be riots.

Ya'll are on!!!

 

[Animal]

I can't beat you with music. It isn't heavy enough.

Haha, I like your reason.

You sound like a pretty strong person--it takes a lot to come back strong from something that nearly kills you.

If you want, you can come be on Amargith and I's team. We can all take over the world. Then free dessert.

Ooo. Normally I don't do team work, but you both seem pretty solid & I like where your spirits are at so sure, I'm in.

But I want artichokes for dessert.

It's just the stereotypes. I'm sure there are INFPs that don't like cats somewhere. I'm almost sure there are type 7s that have stable normal relationships. And type 8s frequently get mistyped as being overly controlling, or somehow a super hero or something, or neurotic sounding. It happens.

Very true. My mistype went deeper than just the stereotypes, so I might have overstated the impact there. When I mistyped at 8 I had already studied enneagram deeply, but I think I was typing my trauma-reactions - which looked like 5 and 8 both, which were my respective mistypes. But definitely the idea of 4s being weak didn't help the matter.

Don't get me wrong- I have tremendous flaws & weaknesses and I'm blatantly aware of them, but I do have pretty tough skin, and I'm not the type to sit at home crying, feeling sorry for myself. I do emote a lot but I channel it creatively. I guess that's actually quite 4ish.

 

[badger055]

The difference is the 4s kind of like the pain. The pain just feeds them and makes them feel alive. To quote eminem, "what are you going to do against a man who strangles himself".

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

[MENTION=18576]Sanjuro[/MENTION] most of what you say applies to 9w8 I think, especially this.

I think the obsession with being taken advantage of is more 9 than 4 because of 9s connection to 6.

Problem being, I'm not a 9w8 (yes, I've considered it).

But yes, what I have listed here could conceivably apply to a number of types.

It wasn't meant to be inclusive of *everyone*, just a way to get him started.

And it's a good start! We appreciate your efforts.

As for you...I don't know you very well, so the following is a very crude guess at best:

You have the longing of a 4 definitely down. You ask too many wistful, self-reflecting questions, to be an 8. While an 8 can and certainly will do that - as our Dj here - you lack their...innocence and cuteness about it. For you, this is a daily regime, not a ponderance you just happen to stumble about. It is definitely focused on you and your emotional state. You live here.

However. I'm going to guess you're likely male and your typical 4 fantasies probably resemble being an 8. You admire them and their qualities - like many of us 4s do - and it is something for you to strive for. Something you use to inspire you in coping with reality when you need to, and to help you escape reality when you don't feel you can cope. All 4s have their specific, unique fantasies of who they are secretly inside. Of how they want to be and how they can be in control and powerful in their very unique way. You may be doing so by looking at the 8 - or a stereotype persona you desire to embody that is an 8 - for those answers. I did the same with 9 and parts of 2 for a long time.

Then there is the smile explanation of course: you possibly have an 8 in your tritype.

/crude guess.

Thanks for your viewpoint! I am biologically a female (most folks online get the sense I'm male, even when I don't have a male avatar and am labelled female). And what you say is partly true--I find many admirable qualities in type 8, many of which I would be pleased to emulate.

But, I am also aware of things not readily explainable by being a core type 4--indeed, quite contrary to it. Many years ago as a child, for instance, well before I found the enneagram, I was convinced that being "sensitive" made me "weak"--and was greatly annoyed at my mother for always telling people I was "sensitive". I was very identified with being the "strong" daughter. (Now, why the hell would a 9-year-old girl from the US suburbs, raised in an idyllic community by two 9w1s possibly think that?)

I've had a difficult last few years, and the side of me that's come out (unintentionally; I didn't even reflect upon this until later) has been combative and violent in the name of "survival"--I've lost the capacity for self-pity, and have begun to resent other's sympathy as being "condescending". Every day feels like war, and I am a pretty darn authoritarian asshole. (I'm not doing this stuff as part of an "image", it's just leaking out of me due to the generalized sense of rage, betrayal, and powerlessness that I have been made to feel).

So, I think there's more to this than me just being a "wannabe". I think it's a great case for tritypes, actually (and yeah, I do put 8 as my secondary fix)!

Some of it is fantasy, like I said...but I believe that, for 4s (and maybe everyone), what we imagine is an inherent part of us that seeks realization.

sorry, but I'm not changing my opinion

Elfboy, YOUUUU~~!!! XD

INFJ enneagram 8...more than likely they are sixes mistyped. 6's can test as 8 often.

That's a fair point. Also, 1s. Sometimes sx-first 1s don't initially see themselves as 1s. Both 1s and 6s are common for INFJ.

Oh no no no.

Sadism (Naranjo's 8 description) is the act of shaming someone else, whereas Masochism (Naranjo's 4 description) is the act of shaming yourself, so that nobody else has the power to shame you. How can an 8 beat a 4 then? Masochist always has the power.

Regardless of the degree to which I do or don't fasten myself to Naranjo's descriptions, categories, and correlations, Life experience has shown me that 8s don't easily beat me. I've only been "out-witted/ out-maneuvered at life in general" by fellow 4s and matched by 7s.

Beating me at anything involving creativity or concepts would be difficult. If music is involved, you're dead meat.. the end.

If we're talking physical fights, I'm quite strong and physical. I had to beat a chronic illness and re-learn to walk after being told I might be crippled forever, and NOTHING was going to stop me. I can outlift men larger than my size at the gym and win fights with much taller men on "sheer crazy points" as my combat-oriented 1w2 friend likes to describe it. I am also a mean swimmer with tremendous breath control.

Admittedly, I think I remember reading that you were in the military? So physically, you might have a one-up on me. My type 8 friend is a multiple martial arts expert, and he can beat me at physical things and coach me, but I challenge & help him with other stuff, and we balance well. Physically, I'm no push-over, weakling or wimp. But 8s are usually invested in some physical expertise which gives them a one -up, whereas my expertise is in the creative realm. However - 4s are surrounded by competency types (3, 5 and line to 1) and very bent on our personal significance. So if there's a 4 invested in some physical arts, she could have a chance of kicking the ass of an equally invested 8; I don't see why not. I can kick the ass of a few 8s at hand-eye coordination stuff that I'm good at, like music or Super Mario. ;D

I've been wanting to take martial arts for-fricken-ever.

FOURS THAT DO KARATE!!

Part of the reason I mistyped so many times is the whole "4s are weak" bit. It's beyond complete and utter bullshit. And it's not just me. My 4w5 friend kicked the ass of his 8 buddy (who was pretty badass himself) in physical and verbal fights, and musically... practically in his sleep.

And in case anyone hasn't noticed, SX4s can be quite shameless. Especially if they have narcissistic streaks from their id-fixes.

*giggle*

Me too, plus the two 4s in my life really have been emotional wrecks that need a lot of support. Between that and common descriptions, I couldn't quite buy into it myself.

 

[tralala]

Jesus, mental masturbation.

Enneagrams fighting now?

Super powers?

Stupidity.

 

[Amargith]

Jesus, mental masturbation.

Enneagrams fighting now?

Super powers?

Stupidity.

ENTJ and an 8??

Rod-extraction time! *snaps gloves into place*

Now, don't worry...this won't hurt one bit

 

[Animal]

The difference is the 4s kind of like the pain. The pain just feeds them and makes them feel alive. To quote eminem, "what are you going to do against a man who strangles himself".

Exactly! This is the power of masochism.

Jesus, mental masturbation.

Enneagrams fighting now?

Super powers?

Stupidity.

Oh c'mon. Sense of humor?