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Thread: 4s vs 8s

  1. #21
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    @DJ Arendee

    I think it's actually a good question. I am an 8-fixed 4w5, and this made it more or less impossible for me to see myself as either a 4 or an 8 for many years. I didn't know WHAT I was. I'm probably not what most people would think of as a "typical 4" (including myself, bogged down in stereotypes as I was).

    As far as "sadism" and "masochism" I've done a bit of both and am actually more identified (in layman's terms) as being "sadistic"--I was the mean older sibling, for one thing.

    With all due respect to those who work on this issue, I don't think the answer is as simple as a dichotomy:
    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Shame vs anger
    Escape to fantasy vs powerbase building in coping with reality
    Master of the emotional realm vs master of the physical realm
    Evasive vs aggressive
    Operates from the heart vs operates from the gut
    ->mulling over stuff vs quick draw
    Perfection driven vs powerdriven
    Fear of being broken inherently vs fear of being vulnerable and at someone elses mercy
    That's not to single you out specifically, Amargith. What you put here is actually quite good and hugely relevant for probably the majority of 4s and 8s. But it raises the question, what about weirdos like me?

    I tend to fantasize about power-building while priding myself on being able to cope with reality. I have a very physical edge to me and have occasionally reacted by drawing blades and fists. I secretly suspect I'm horribly broken and flawed, but also obsess with being taken advantage of. Indeed, the two are interlinked--showing how inherently messed up I am will leave me at the mercy of a brutal world...but then I feel like I should stop bullshitting everyone and just be honest about it.

    So whenever I start mulling dichotomies over, it's like...Um, both. Kind of. Neither. I dunno.

    As I'm sure you know by now, DJ, it really is more about motivations, connections, and focusing on the worst of one's psychology, which, unfortunately, can't be reduced to a simple one-line litmus test.

    I personally know I'm not an 8 because I've got the co-motivations of my 3-wing and 5-wing as well as a giant 1-connection. So, one measure you can use is to try to detect the motivations of the wings.

    Secondly, and probably more importantly, you want to look at the core, lifelong issues that the individual has had. As often as I've been a commanding asshole to those close to me...as warlike an outlook on life as I've privately maintained...as much as I like a challenge...and as physically angry as I can sometimes be...the core passion that gets under my skin is that of Envy. I keep coming back to the feeling that people all have been privileged in some way that I haven't (usually involving beauty and social skills) and this enrages and depresses me. My first and worst tendency is to be "withdrawn" rather than "aggressive". I feel like the environment has nothing to do with me, rather than being subordinate to me...and I often forget I'm not watching TV.

    I hope that's somewhat helpful, although I'm eager to hear @Animal 's testimony, as I suspect she's a lot more 8ish than me.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    One last thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    6) 4s, even the more aggressive ones have a delicate quality to them; 8s are about as delicate as a silver back gorilla
    Elfboy...again, with all due respect to well-thought out dichotomies...I doubt anyone who knows me would call me "delicate". Quiet, polite, even impressionable, perhaps...not delicate. Actually, I'd be offended if they did.

    Hence my years of mistyping.

    (PS--I'd be offended if they called me a silver back as well.)

  3. #23
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    @DJ Arendee

    I think it's actually a good question. I am an 8-fixed 4w5, and this made it more or less impossible for me to see myself as either a 4 or an 8 for many years. I didn't know WHAT I was. I'm probably not what most people would think of as a "typical 4" (including myself, bogged down in stereotypes as I was).

    As far as "sadism" and "masochism" I've done a bit of both and am actually more identified (in layman's terms) as being "sadistic"--I was the mean older sibling, for one thing.

    With all due respect to those who work on this issue, I don't think the answer is as simple as a dichotomy:

    That's not to single you out specifically, Amargith. What you put here is actually quite good and hugely relevant for probably the majority of 4s and 8s. But it raises the question, what about weirdos like me?

    I tend to fantasize about power-building while priding myself on being able to cope with reality. I have a very physical edge to me and have occasionally reacted by drawing blades and fists. I secretly suspect I'm horribly broken and flawed, but also obsess with being taken advantage of. Indeed, the two are interlinked--showing how inherently messed up I am will leave me at the mercy of a brutal world...but then I feel like I should stop bullshitting everyone and just be honest about it.

    So whenever I start mulling dichotomies over, it's like...Um, both. Kind of. Neither. I dunno.

    As I'm sure you know by now, DJ, it really is more about motivations, connections, and focusing on the worst of one's psychology, which, unfortunately, can't be reduced to a simple one-line litmus test.

    I personally know I'm not an 8 because I've got the co-motivations of my 3-wing and 5-wing as well as a giant 1-connection. So, one measure you can use is to try to detect the motivations of the wings.

    Secondly, and probably more importantly, you want to look at the core, lifelong issues that the individual has had. As often as I've been a commanding asshole to those close to me...as warlike an outlook on life as I've privately maintained...as much as I like a challenge...and as physically angry as I can sometimes be...the core passion that gets under my skin is that of Envy. I keep coming back to the feeling that people all have been privileged in some way that I haven't (usually involving beauty and social skills) and this enrages and depresses me. My first and worst tendency is to be "withdrawn" rather than "aggressive". I feel like the environment has nothing to do with me, rather than being subordinate to me...and I often forget I'm not watching TV.

    I hope that's somewhat helpful, although I'm eager to hear @Animal 's testimony, as I suspect she's a lot more 8ish than me.
    It wasn't meant to be inclusive of *everyone*, just a way to get him started.

    As for you...I don't know you very well, so the following is a very crude guess at best:

    You have the longing of a 4 definitely down. You ask too many wistful, self-reflecting questions, to be an 8. While an 8 can and certainly will do that - as our Dj here - you lack their...innocence and cuteness about it. For you, this is a daily regime, not a ponderance you just happen to stumble about. It is definitely focused on you and your emotional state. You live here.

    However. I'm going to guess you're likely male and your typical 4 fantasies probably resemble being an 8. You admire them and their qualities - like many of us 4s do - and it is something for you to strive for. Something you use to inspire you in coping with reality when you need to, and to help you escape reality when you don't feel you can cope. All 4s have their specific, unique fantasies of who they are secretly inside. Of how they want to be and how they can be in control and powerful in their very unique way. You may be doing so by looking at the 8 - or a stereotype persona you desire to embody that is an 8 - for those answers. I did the same with 9 and parts of 2 for a long time.

    Then there is the smile explanation of course: you possibly have an 8 in your tritype.

    /crude guess.
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  4. #24
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    @Sanjuro most of what you say applies to 9w8 I think, especially this

    I tend to fantasize about power-building while priding myself on being able to cope with reality. I have a very physical edge to me and have occasionally reacted by drawing blades and fists. I secretly suspect I'm horribly broken and flawed, but also obsess with being taken advantage of
    I think the obsession with being taken advantage of is more 9 than 4 because of 9s connection to 6.
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  5. #25
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    Assuming I'm a four (and that others are like me) on the inside I sort of feel like an eight. To be precise: ever since I was a kid I found myself with a strong will (which was partly in opposition and partly in synergy with high emotional sensitivity) and I do not think I ever truly felt that my will could be denied. I was entirely at the mercy of it's whims and the outside world could only really act like triggers which changed or influenced its direction e.g. a situation caused me to wallow in emotion or envy but these were already part of the will. On reflection I don't think any external force has successfully been able to supplant it or destroy it - I think I alone through volition destroyed myself and rebuilt myself. The more the world pushes the more I resist. If the world stops pushing my will survives intact. If the world was to literally kill me I would die ultimately with my will intact.

    The only issue is that my personality carries little to no influence, gravitas or authority in the world itself. It's sealed up inside and through a concoction of incompetence, laziness, indifference and romanticisation the world does not know about it. I wonder whether for an eight it's the other way around: that they are marshmallow surrounded by rock armour few can pierce.

  6. #26
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    One last thing.
    Elfboy...again, with all due respect to well-thought out dichotomies...I doubt anyone who knows me would call me "delicate". Quiet, polite, even impressionable, perhaps...not delicate. Actually, I'd be offended if they did.
    Hence my years of mistyping.
    sorry, but I'm not changing my opinion

    (PS--I'd be offended if they called me a silver back as well.)
    I only compared a single trait to a silverback gorilla, not the entire type.
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  7. #27
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    The only thing I thought when I read "4s vs 8s" was "I would win."
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    The only thing I thought when I read "4s vs 8s" was "I would win."
    Depends on the turf.

    ...and I'd be up to finding out
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    The only thing I thought when I read "4s vs 8s" was "I would win."
    It wouldn't even be close.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    It wouldn't even be close.
    True
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