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Things you're surprised to notice about each type

skylights

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Ahhh. Okay, that makes sense.

I half want to ask if the lack of a sense of self is the reason a CP6 in full bloom can't see him/herself as the source of the misunderstanding (as in- and not even consciously- but "the self can't be wrong because there is no self"), but the other half of me doesn't want to derail the thread further. That is interesting though. Thanks.

Sure, glad I could clarify! Your post was especially interesting to me because I'd seen the situation play out so recently and plainly IRL.

Might as well answer your question, I figure; it seems on topic to me. Though other 6s should chime in, please, because I am not sure - all I can give is my personal feelings and experiences, and I rarely act counterphobically.

In any case, for myself, I've been accused of not seeing myself as the cause before, and it's always because I see problems as being very systemic. I don't typically think in terms of fault, just in terms of poor systems and the underlying reasons systems aren't working as they should. In line with thinking systemically, I tend to explain why I did things in a situation, which apparently can come off as "making excuses". I'm also very aware of and upfront about admitting my flaws, I feel like, so I tend to get frustrated when someone who rarely admits their own flaws blames me for something, even for something that is my fault. It seems like an abuse of fair play.

I think the example at work I was talking about was an instance of reaction formation on the part of the cp 6. She spent hours at work yelling about how she would never cheat on her husband with another man, which was the rumor that was going around. Months later, we found out that she was essentially emotionally cheating, at least at first, and later physically. As theory goes, she would therefore be attempting to placate her own feelings of anxiety about cheating with her husband by "drowning it out" in her own mind, at least for as long as she could keep crusading against it. It would be in line with the cp 6 desire to quash anxiety, but in this case it's not from an imagined problem, but from a real one.

superunknown said:
esotericism of Te

I'm on board with all but this one. Any chance you feel like elaborating? :)
 

Showbread

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8s. They can be weirdly sensitive. Like I had this friend (8w7) who got rejected from a group project (and this was in college, so they were all grown adults). It put him in a bad mood like literally all day, and he told me about it several days later, still pissed off and chagrined. I was thinking, Dude, why is this bothering you so much?? As a 4w5, this is part of my daily reality so I can sympathise, but still, this was not what I expected of him!

YES. My 8 roommate can really dish it, and in general has a pretty thick skin. But, every once and a while she takes things insanely personally. It always just comes out of no where too. Like one time a friend of ours took apart a puzzle she had been working on and she flipped out. :ranting:
 

Southern Kross

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[MENTION=5684]Elfboy[/MENTION] I liked what you said about 3s. I think it's rather true. The type often gets painted as desperate for admiration and attention from others. They don't all need to have their ego stroked to have perfectly healthy self-esteem.

There was another time I was trying to prepare a meal for myself, her and her boyfriend. She's a vegetarian, so I bought her some of the faux meat. I was trying to prepare the meal, and was going to cook the real meat first since it takes longer to cook, then was going to cook the faux meat last. I had it all planned out, and asked if she would help cut the vegetables. Just as I was getting the stove fired up, she came and put her faux meat on to start cooking it. I was irritated because I didn't want both of us standing at the stove together, and wanted her to just take care of the other portion of the meal, that way there wouldn't be any mix ups. We just kept getting in one another's way. Then! Then the spoons from the real meat and the faux meat kept getting mixed up. I wanted to prevent this from occurring by just cooking the two at separate times, but alas she sorta screwed that up. She got upset that the spoon that was in the meat got her on vegetarian version. I told her to just get away from the stove at this point. Then the spoons got mixed up again, completely my fault this time. She then exclaimed, "I can't eat this." I could have screamed at that moment. I took the frying pan and threw the contents straight into the trash in anger. It angered me because I wanted to do something nice and had it all worked out in my head, what needed to be cooked at what time, etc. I felt as though she was inconsiderate in just leaping in and worrying about her faux meat before anything else, rather than asking me what needed to be done on the meal I was planning. Maybe I'm just rigid.
Dear god, this sounds so much like my 9w1 friend. Not the whole vegetarian aspect, but the behaviour. I feel as if I've been in the very situation many times before :D

9s can be quite... dither-y and oblivious.

I guess, something to be surprised by type 4's is their need for cleanliness. I just realized most of us bitching about 9's messy behavior's are 4's.
Sorry to buck the trend but I'm a very messy 4, but I do relate to the underlying element of being slightly more precise and on top of things than 9s. I feel like I cautiously hover on the edge of what's acceptable/sufficient (in terms of organisation, being on time, respecting/recognising people's needs etc), and consequently have very little patience for people that are worse than me. Hypocritical perhaps, but I don't take well to being forced into becoming the more responsible and reliable party. :D

I once read a 4 description which included the condescending advice that, "you don't need to always try to showcase your uniqueness. Try to peg your identity less on this" or something to that effect. Clearly, this author did not understand type 4.

I can't speak for the others, but I personally can't help it. It may seem so to others, but no "showcasing" is intended--I just kind of do the things I like. Even in the instances where I need to be "normal", it somehow backfires on me, hence me constantly wondering what's "wrong" with me and why I'm so messed up.

Being thought of as "unique" can be a point of pride for me, but also a wedge between myself and humanity. And it's really only a consequence of my inability to "sell-out" rather than anything I have specifically striven for. In my mind, it's all just obvious and normal.
My #1 problem with 4 descriptions is that the tell you nothing about how they come across. You get a lot of stuff about their motivations and inner thoughts, but 4s (for the most part) don't wear a neon sign declaring their type. I agree with what others have said, a lot of the counter-culture movements and behaviours typically associated with 4s, don't necessarily correlate with the type well. If I gave a list of the type descriptions to anyone I know, except maybe my mother, no one I know would say I was a 4 - they'd probably say I was a 5, a 1 or a 9. I just think people are looking for the wrong indicators when they think about 4s. I mean, people make that mistake with all types, but I think 4s are often thought of more in terms of sheer caricature, than most of the others.
 

Elfboy

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[MENTION=5684]Elfboy[/MENTION] I liked what you said about 3s. I think it's rather true. The type often gets painted as desperate for admiration and attention from others. They don't all need to have their ego stroked to have perfectly healthy self-esteem.
many of the descriptions of 3 are much more similar to unhealthy 2s, 6s and 7s than they are actual 3s.
 

Elfboy

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7s:
1) much more connected to the gut center than they appear at first glance (yes, even 7w6). most of the time, they're in their heads chasing grandiose visions or tactically maneuvering to get what they want in the external world, but when push comes to shove, their energy drops to their gut and they can come across much like an 8 or a 1 (it's different from the more reactive, anxiety based conflict style of a cp6). the difference is it typically comes off as more Id than a 1 and more self righteous than an 8, having a bit of a, for lack of a better word, operatic quality to it.
2) despite being a head type, 7s really don't experience much anxiety and are lot more relaxed that they typically come across as.

3s:
much more independent than they're given credit for. their pursuit of independence rivals that of 8s.

4s:
usually much more others focused than descriptions would have you believe. 5s, 7s and 8s are the true self focused types.

Exactly. There is nothing original about being a hipster, goth, emo, etc. so I don't get why that's so heavily associated with 4.
I mostly associate emo and goth more with young, frustrated Sx/Sps. being an Sx/Sp comes with a lot of feelings of isolation and hunger for that part of you that's missing, so it's no surprise to me that such feelings can manifest in some pretty dark shit. being a 7 with a 3 fix, my own feelings of frustration and hunger don't overtake my exterior so completely, but I could see how they would for a less
 
B

brainheart

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It all depends on the 9. I've seen some who are blissfully unaware, whereas having an 8 wing myself, the inconsiderateness is more due to apathy than being unaware.

Yes. This. I dated a nine and I think he acted unaware for the most part to avoid blame/confrontation, but then every once in awhile he'd say things which made it pretty obvious he knew everything. Nines, with their need to maintain inner peace, can be quite hurtful.

[MENTION=5684]Elfboy[/MENTION], I think goth is more of a social thing. Sx/sp types are dark internally but don't feel a need so much to display their darkness in how they dress and who their friends are. A fellow 4w5 sx/sp friend of mine and I laugh at this whole idea that 4w5 sx/sps would look like they stepped out of a Tim Burton movie. Neither one of us puts that much effort into how we look. Our interests lie elsewhere. Now emo, I guess that applies. But not in a 'I hang out with the emo kids' way. And I really wouldn't use the term to describe myself. All of those sort of terms strike me as social terms.

Being thought of as "unique" can be a point of pride for me, but also a wedge between myself and humanity. And it's really only a consequence of my inability to "sell-out" rather than anything I have specifically striven for. In my mind, it's all just obvious and normal.

Now me, I'm as much of a slob as the 9s mentioned here (lovely sp-last)...but I've noticed that 9s are amongst the types most likely to decry others' selfishness, yet can be some of the most startlingly selfish people on the enneagram.

There's a reluctance to take moral responsibility (like reporting an affair to a questioning spouse) lest it disturb inner peace or upset others. It's like, Ummm...you gonna deal with this or let it blow up on the rest of us??" (You know what the answer is).

My parents are both 9s, and the times I've needed them most, they suddenly go absent. They feel that their presence doesn't "really matter" and they'd sooner not bother. Even when you ask them. With 9s, there's a major undertone of "not my problem". And, you can't even make them face their crimes.

I don't say that to bash 9s, but it's the legitimate downside of a psychological base designed to maintain inner equilibrium. All is sacrificed to the God of Peace.

Yes! (Minus the slob part. I'm definitely not a super clean person, though. Somewhere in between.) Nines are great at breaking hearts. I'm sorry you've had to deal with that. Their disappearing act definitely hurts.


6s. Sometimes, for all they try to cover bases and are capable of heroism under fire...sometimes they don't want to face how ugly problems can really be. Like a while back, I told my (biological) 6w5 father that I thought I was going under psychologically. I expected him to rush to support me or offer to send aid; something that would help--and he recoiled in horror. He was like, Um, no. You're not going under. You wouldn't be coherent and able to ask for help if you were going under...right? RIGHT?? All better, see? Just keep putting one foot in front of the other, right? He like, totally Sevened out on me. This was incredibly depressing at the time.

As a person married to a six I approve this message. It's like a self soothing for themselves, I think, because it scares them that you might have something truly wrong with you. They don't disappear like a nine, but they don't want to go there, either. As problem solvers, they want to fix things quickly- even if it sometimes means not really fixing things.


1s. Can be really fun and light-hearted and eager to try new things outside of their Correctness Sphere. I remember my 1w2 grandmother as being the most fun person in the family, actually. You just didn't want to mess up the house or get in her way during holidays, lol.

My mom is a 1w2 and she's like this too. Very strong connection to seven. But extremely moral and principled in a way that's quintessentially one.
 

rav3n

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8s. They can be weirdly sensitive. Like I had this friend (8w7) who got rejected from a group project (and this was in college, so they were all grown adults). It put him in a bad mood like literally all day, and he told me about it several days later, still pissed off and chagrined. I was thinking, Dude, why is this bothering you so much?? As a 4w5, this is part of my daily reality so I can sympathise, but still, this was not what I expected of him!
This isn't unusual 8 behaviour if at 'average' to 'unhealthy' levels.

When this happens, Eights feel misunderstood and may distance themselves further. In fact, beneath their imposing exterior, Eights often feel hurt and rejected, although this is something they seldom talk about because they have trouble admitting their vulnerability to themselves, let alone to anyone else. Because they fear that they will be rejected (divorced, humiliated, criticized, fired, or harmed in some way), Eights attempt to defend themselves by rejecting others first. The result is that average Eights become blocked in their ability to connect with people or to love since love gives the other power over them, reawakening their Basic Fear.

The more Eights build up their egos in order to protect themselves, the more sensitive they become to any real or imaginary slight to their self-respect, authority, or preeminence. The more they attempt to make themselves impervious to hurt or pain (whether physical or emotional), the more they “shut down” emotionally to become hardened and rock-like.

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/typeeight.asp
 

ChocolateMoose123

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Does that make more sense? Or is that still disagreeable?

*waits to be surprised to find out something about e6*

[And apologies for kinda derailing into side tangent.]

How did I disagree with you? I understood what you said. I only sought to clarify what I saw as an important distinction in motivation of CP6's that might complete the other side of your viewpoint. No need for defense.
 

Standuble

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My #1 problem with 4 descriptions is that the tell you nothing about how they come across. You get a lot of stuff about their motivations and inner thoughts, but 4s (for the most part) don't wear a neon sign declaring their type. I agree with what others have said, a lot of the counter-culture movements and behaviours typically associated with 4s, don't necessarily correlate with the type well. If I gave a list of the type descriptions to anyone I know, except maybe my mother, no one I know would say I was a 4 - they'd probably say I was a 5, a 1 or a 9. I just think people are looking for the wrong indicators when they think about 4s. I mean, people make that mistake with all types, but I think 4s are often thought of more in terms of sheer caricature, than most of the others.

I would certainly agree with this (though at times I wonder whether the perception of 4 isn't just caricature but also misrepresentation). I too would not be believed if I told people my type. I certainly never identified with nor affiliated with emo/goth/hipster culture when growing up. I wonder how many 4's actually pay no real attention to their physical appearance or how they dress because they can feel authentic enough by merely thinking and feeling certain things and sufficiently express their authenticity merely through their ideas or their character.
 

CatBalou

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Sure, glad I could clarify! Your post was especially interesting to me because I'd seen the situation play out so recently and plainly IRL.

Might as well answer your question, I figure; it seems on topic to me. Though other 6s should chime in, please, because I am not sure - all I can give is my personal feelings and experiences, and I rarely act counterphobically.

In any case, for myself, I've been accused of not seeing myself as the cause before, and it's always because I see problems as being very systemic. I don't typically think in terms of fault, just in terms of poor systems and the underlying reasons systems aren't working as they should. In line with thinking systemically, I tend to explain why I did things in a situation, which apparently can come off as "making excuses". I'm also very aware of and upfront about admitting my flaws, I feel like, so I tend to get frustrated when someone who rarely admits their own flaws blames me for something, even for something that is my fault. It seems like an abuse of fair play.

I think the example at work I was talking about was an instance of reaction formation on the part of the cp 6. She spent hours at work yelling about how she would never cheat on her husband with another man, which was the rumor that was going around. Months later, we found out that she was essentially emotionally cheating, at least at first, and later physically. As theory goes, she would therefore be attempting to placate her own feelings of anxiety about cheating with her husband by "drowning it out" in her own mind, at least for as long as she could keep crusading against it. It would be in line with the cp 6 desire to quash anxiety, but in this case it's not from an imagined problem, but from a real one.

I've done this kind of stuff under extreme stress. In my last job, I had about a year of people pointing out to me that the problems I was complaining about in other people were actually created by me. I couldn't see it at all, until I got out of there. I'd got into a cycle of feeling paranoid, reacting to perceived slights, the other people reacting badly to that hostility and me then having a hostile reaction to their bad reaction. I knew I felt confused and anxious, but the paranoid thoughts seemed so real I couldn't see that I was creating the problems myself.

I can definitely relate your co-worker example, being in denial of your own dark side in the hope that you'll become the person you say you are. I spent a long time emphatically telling my friends I would never go near a married man - until of course I did...

As a person married to a six I approve this message. It's like a self soothing for themselves, I think, because it scares them that you might have something truly wrong with you. They don't disappear like a nine, but they don't want to go there, either. As problem solvers, they want to fix things quickly- even if it sometimes means not really fixing things.

I really hate it when I find myself doing this. It is definitely that the problem seems too big and scary to deal with. I'm aware of what I'm doing at the time but it's very hard to reopen the subject after shutting it down :(
 

mcgooglian

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Yes. This. I dated a nine and I think he acted unaware for the most part to avoid blame/confrontation, but then every once in awhile he'd say things which made it pretty obvious he knew everything. Nines, with their need to maintain inner peace, can be quite hurtful.

I know half the time I act unaware, it's to see how people react to stuff. The other time, it's just to be left alone to do my own thing.
 

Z Buck McFate

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How did I disagree with you? I understood what you said. I only sought to clarify what I saw as an important distinction in motivation of CP6's that might complete the other side of your viewpoint. No need for defense.

Maybe “disagreeable” was a poor word choice. I didn’t think you were arguing.

I just find this thing about how it doesn’t seem like ‘self-righteousness’ interesting. I do get how it isn’t about being the hero (because that does sorta imply there’s something image related about the motivation- and it isn’t about the 6 wanting others to perceive her/him in some specific way, it’s about fixing some ‘wrong’ out there in the world, yes?). I have noticed in CP6 this distinct tendency (and again- probably making it sound like I think it’s more prevalent than it is), it’s like a need to shoot first (shoot first/ask questions later). That’s the thing I’m trying to understand. But I really don’t want to derail the thread. If someone starts an 'ask an e6' thread, I'll take it over there. :)
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

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Yes! (Minus the slob part. I'm definitely not a super clean person, though. Somewhere in between.) Nines are great at breaking hearts. I'm sorry you've had to deal with that. Their disappearing act definitely hurts.

As a person married to a six I approve this message. It's like a self soothing for themselves, I think, because it scares them that you might have something truly wrong with you. They don't disappear like a nine, but they don't want to go there, either. As problem solvers, they want to fix things quickly- even if it sometimes means not really fixing things.

My mom is a 1w2 and she's like this too. Very strong connection to seven. But extremely moral and principled in a way that's quintessentially one.
Thanks for relating to me!

This isn't unusual 8 behaviour if at 'average' to 'unhealthy' levels.
I guess what struck about it most was the irony of me being 4w5, yet I felt he was being too sensitive.

My #1 problem with 4 descriptions is that the tell you nothing about how they come across. You get a lot of stuff about their motivations and inner thoughts, but 4s (for the most part) don't wear a neon sign declaring their type. I agree with what others have said, a lot of the counter-culture movements and behaviours typically associated with 4s, don't necessarily correlate with the type well. If I gave a list of the type descriptions to anyone I know, except maybe my mother, no one I know would say I was a 4 - they'd probably say I was a 5, a 1 or a 9. I just think people are looking for the wrong indicators when they think about 4s. I mean, people make that mistake with all types, but I think 4s are often thought of more in terms of sheer caricature, than most of the others.
Yes, that's right. I mistyped for many years due, in part, to this caricature.

I should put my own example here, "what I was surprised to learn about 4s" ;) but am running short of time.
 

Such Irony

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What do you find surprising (if anything) about type 5s?
 

Galena

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What do you find surprising (if anything) about type 5s?
Whatever you take from this: 5 is in between two reactive types, as easy as it is to forget this detail. You shouldn't.
 

small.wonder

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I've recently been surprised to find everything already said about 9's here, to be true. I've only experienced one 9 in close proximity, and very recently. My roommate is a 9 who was mistyped as a 4w3 (for 3 years) until I moved in with her. Haha, it only took a month of living with me for her to realize she could not possibly be a 4. Long story short, she reassessed and has self typed as a 9w8. I never outright told her she wasn't a 4, but I definitely thought it and asked her lots of questions about the many qualities/behaviors she has that didn't fit. Anyway, yes-- she leaves the kitchen and bathroom a mess and quite literally thinks nothing of it. I've been pretty direct with her, which she has the gall to be annoyed with (but passively of course). Even when it's not a huge mess, just small inconsiderate things like bits of food in the kitchen sink (I clean the sink out every time I do dishes), or having people over until like 4 am on a weekday...and she's in her early thirties. It's tough because she's actually a nice and interesting person, but that tendency to be inconsiderate drives me crazy. I think living with her has made me that much more certain of my typing as INFJ because I do care alot about showing respect and courtesy to others.

I would certainly agree with this (though at times I wonder whether the perception of 4 isn't just caricature but also misrepresentation). I too would not be believed if I told people my type. I certainly never identified with nor affiliated with emo/goth/hipster culture when growing up. I wonder how many 4's actually pay no real attention to their physical appearance or how they dress because they can feel authentic enough by merely thinking and feeling certain things and sufficiently express their authenticity merely through their ideas or their character.

I agree that 4 is too often related with very specific style groups (the ones you've mentioned) but please do not think 4's don't care about personal aesthetics! I don't belong to any of the aforementioned style groups, but I do certainly have my own style (and so does every other 4 I've met). My style is not popular fashion, but more of an expression of who I am-- just as my artwork is. I think of getting dressed as similar to creating a painting.

I agree also with the thought that fours are mainly about authenticity more than uniqueness.
 

OrangeAppled

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Refinement

An inclination to refinement (and the corresponding aversion to grossness) is manifest in descriptors such as “stylish,” “delicate,” “elegant,” “tasteful,” “artistic,” “sensitive,” and sometimes “arty” and “affected,” “mannered” and “posturing.” They may be understood as efforts on the part of the person to compensate for a poor self-image (so that an ugly self-image and the refined self-ideal may be seen as reciprocally supporting each other); also, they convey the attempt on the part of the person to be something different from what he or she is, perhaps connected to class envy. The lack of originality entailed by such imitativeness in turn; perpetuates an envy of originality—just as the attempt to imitate original individuals and the wish to emulate spontaneity are doomed to fail.

At face value this part legitimately surprised me, because it just flat out says that 4's are actually emulating the greats/artistics rather than actually being original themselves. You always hear that 4's are the original artistic type, so it's pretty surprising to see this part about them. (Someone else responded to this and clarified it for me, so thanks

I am not surprised by this. I can't expect any 4 would be.... Contrivance is part of being an image type.

For the 4, it's a matter of striving to meet an idealized self, and always falling short (or feeling so). 4s also "introject", which means many things but one is that we internalize concepts and use them as symbols of our identity (we also introject others' behaviors as commentary on our own significance, hence being too sensitive & absorbed). Hence, adopting style we may associate with a quality we see our fantasy self as possessing (which we see as our true selves or our potential to become).

I think "stealing" from others is a part of the shame - what is truly from YOU could not be that good. And introjection can lead to very narrow concepts if the person feels a large gap between how they appear & how they feel, although masochistic set-ups to fail in making the right impression is common here too.

But the healthier a 4 gets, the more likely they are to be more original and to create their own symbols.

This is why healthy 4s (and probably average ones too) can be extremely creative because they will believe in the significance of their own creations, the legitimacy of the meaning the create, and the depth of their insights. Prior to that, they may simply adopt a snobbishness which LOOKs like they feel they are refined, but it's something of a defense, and it also extends from an envy towards things viewed as great that the 4 sees as mundane (they become resentful and suddenly demanding of recognition, especially sx-dom). Really, lower functioning 4s may feel too bad about themselves to dare to be fully original, or to even try to create much at all. Many can get stuck in fantasy, and then at most they just have a persona of being arty or deep, with nothing much to back it up except tastes & feelings. Even these 4s can be tagged as creative by others because they will be seen as having a flair about them or great taste or always knowing what the obscure, coo stuff is, etc, but in actuality all they've created is an image (and they know it & hate themselves for it).


I assume this means that the whole thing has been explained but if not then I think I can shed light on the matter. Enneagram fours (at least those I've encountered) have a poor self image which (when not in inflated special snowflake mode) can preclude the observation of any legitimate strengths they may have - in this case that they are original in their own right. For example if one created a number of story or fantasy worlds inside their head but then they could in turn quickly determine the source(s) of the various ideas they would perceive themselves as someone only capable of mere regurgitation of the creativity of others and not actually being someone who is original and creative themselves. Perceiving themselves as a fake or deficient in their desired area they turn their attention to other creative people who they think actually possess genuine originality and creativity and desire to emulate them in order to make up for where they lack (note that they desire to emulate only in the area of their perceived deficiency. They have no desire to emulate the entire person beyond those points.)

Whilst in the above case the individual probably does fairly classify as a creative individual as they have may have turned an existing idea into a brand new permutation e.g. an idea used in a different setting or different circumstances to create a different effect this only comes into play during the inflation of the ego (the ignoring of one's self esteem issues for the sake of feeling special). It doesn't help that others come to the conclusion of originality for that individual when that individual themselves realises that the observer's opinion is created merely because they are not aware of the idea's source.

The above is just one scenario but from what I understand it occurs across the board in a large number of creative outlets (perhaps all of them).

Yes, this describes it well.

On the surface, I don't really think I have a vibe that is in your face. I've tended to prefer to blend into the woodwork and have little flair. Or understated flair.

I don't see myself as an individualist either. I don't go out of my way to be unique or anything. I do go out of my way to do or wear or say, etc, what feels most congruent with "who I am", which tends to be some idealized self. And I usually feel I fall short of it. Sometimes when I do something I know is odd but which feels right to me, I may feel some defiance of "screw it! I don't care what people think" but my demeanor is that of someone shy (and perhaps ashamed), or I will be so closed off to reactions that I seem aloof. This is likely where the "snob" tag comes in for me... I think I build a wall to fend off anticipated negative reactions to "being myself". Instead of some in-your-face individualist, I'm more like someone who sheepishly goes about being themselves, because it's too dreary not to be myself (and I'm either invisible or disliked anyway, so goes the inner monologue), not to make a statement or get a reaction.

I think true originality is impossible. We can rip off styles and stories even without consciously remembering our influences. Even absent of derivation, I constantly come up with independent, out of nowhere ideas that other people have had before just because there are so many brains in the world, and thus the probability is high. So, I just do what I to do, look as I want to look, and don't worry about that.

I can relate to this, as far as doing what I want, etc, except that I am highly aware of my inspirations/influences. I think some of the "shame" for me is being seen as "original" and "creative" by people (because I hear it a lot), but knowing my sources, and not being able to accept the positive feedback (I feel a phony even if I acted authentically). What I may fail to credit myself for is perhaps doing it in my own way or with my own flair, and more importantly, because I just like it, not because I want to be seen a certain way... I do idealize being someone who is innovative more than just striking, but I usually end up in the latter place. Why this seems original is often because there is such a juxtaposition of elements that it seems "fresh" or I will stubbornly be consistent in something to sort of brand it as "mine".
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
7,626
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Considering how fives fear being useless, helpless and incapable, when they finally attach in relationships, they can be quite clingy and needy.

I find this true also.

------

The descriptions don't go into how much of a BULLY 2s can be. The "helper" title seems all wrong (but I suppose it is meant to appeal to their ego; I don't know many who actually AREE helpful, or not in any way that is not self-serving and meant to indebt others to them). Also, lots of e2s (especially the ESFP 2w3 sx/sp and sp/sx) are the "seductive" 2s who promise a lot and put out some exciting, sexy image and then once they have someone they fall apart and need to be babied, or they get bored and move onto the next conquest. They are insatiable for love, affection & admiration, and it's not always through "helping" that they get it. They just FEEL that they have a lot to offer, but they don't always in actuality OFFER anything, and they can convince others of what they FEEL and never even deliver.
 

Sunny Ghost

New member
Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
2,396
I don't see myself as an individualist either. I don't go out of my way to be unique or anything. I do go out of my way to do or wear or say, etc, what feels most congruent with "who I am", which tends to be some idealized self. And I usually feel I fall short of it. Sometimes when I do something I know is odd but which feels right to me, I may feel some defiance of "screw it! I don't care what people think" but my demeanor is that of someone shy (and perhaps ashamed), or I will be so closed off to reactions that I seem aloof. This is likely where the "snob" tag comes in for me... I think I build a wall to fend off anticipated negative reactions to "being myself". Instead of some in-your-face individualist, I'm more like someone who sheepishly goes about being themselves, because it's too dreary not to be myself (and I'm either invisible or disliked anyway, so goes the inner monologue), not to make a statement or get a reaction.

You've done it again, Ms. Appled. You always explain what it's like to be a 4 so perfectly, or at least share an experience similar to that of my own.
 

Sunny Ghost

New member
Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
2,396
I'm sorry to bring up 9's again, but I just had a problem arise recently that got me thinking about this one. I surprised how "fleeting" 9's can be when it comes to friendships, when a romance comes along. Both of the ISFP 9's sx I know irl really take off with the wind when a love interest comes along, more so than any other type I know. They really merge who they are with the other, and seem to refuse to spend any time without their lover. Are they the most passionate type?
 
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