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  1. #61
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I find this true also.

    ------

    The descriptions don't go into how much of a BULLY 2s can be. The "helper" title seems all wrong (but I suppose it is meant to appeal to their ego; I don't know many who actually AREE helpful, or not in any way that is not self-serving and meant to indebt others to them). Also, lots of e2s (especially the ESFP 2w3 sx/sp and sp/sx) are the "seductive" 2s who promise a lot and put out some exciting, sexy image and then once they have someone they fall apart and need to be babied, or they get bored and move onto the next conquest. They are insatiable for love, affection & admiration, and it's not always through "helping" that they get it. They just FEEL that they have a lot to offer, but they don't always in actuality OFFER anything, and they can convince others of what they FEEL and never even deliver.
    4 disintegrates to unhealthy 2, interestingly enough. I've definitely observed this in some Enneagram 4s I've known. I wouldn't call them bullies when they do this, though.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  2. #62
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I find this true also.
    ------
    The descriptions don't go into how much of a BULLY 2s can be. The "helper" title seems all wrong (but I suppose it is meant to appeal to their ego; I don't know many who actually AREE helpful, or not in any way that is not self-serving and meant to indebt others to them). Also, lots of e2s (especially the ESFP 2w3 sx/sp and sp/sx) are the "seductive" 2s who promise a lot and put out some exciting, sexy image and then once they have someone they fall apart and need to be babied, or they get bored and move onto the next conquest. They are insatiable for love, affection & admiration, and it's not always through "helping" that they get it. They just FEEL that they have a lot to offer, but they don't always in actuality OFFER anything, and they can convince others of what they FEEL and never even deliver.
    I was just about to post something about this. I think a lot of people mistype these 2s as cp6 (the difference is, unlike 6s, 2s have a relatively weak connection to the head center). on the positive side, they're definitely a lot more assertive and willful than people give them credit for (though, paradoxically, their assertiveness is often covert); on the negative side, they're very much prone to "antics" and can throw a shitstorm when they don't get their way.
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  3. #63
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    I couldn't agree more. It always bugs me when the need to feel unique card is emphasized as what fours are all about. I think it's why there are so many people who mistype as four or want to be four. But what I think it is is that non-fours interpret the four drive for authenticity as this need to be different. That's not it at all, it's just this need to be true to the self. I also think it's why fours are so driven to fully understand themselves, because if they don't fully understand themselves, what is the self that they are supposed to be true to?

    It's kind of like what @Misty said, you're never going to create something wholly original. But you can take bits of pieces from the people you admire and create something that is true to you. I can't think of a single four artist, writer, musician who didn't copy the style of someone they admired when starting out but eventually that style copying led to something different.
    IMO the cult of originality seems to be a particularly modern Western neurosis. Romans were not whining about Virgil ripping off Homer, for example. While the movie snobs in our time were bashing James Cameron for using the "Fern Gully" type narrative in "Avatar".
    Autistic INFP


  4. #64
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I don't know if I agree with this. It seems to me- at least where counterphobic 6 is concerned- that e6s block information they don't like about themselves by seeing the characteristics they don't want to own in other people instead. All people do this, but counterphobic 6s do this with an unparalleled panache. It's very unnerving to deal with an e6 who is on some self-righteous witch-hunt to call people out on things left and right; it's like they're trying to exorcise demons in other people- but the more they do it, the more they keep seeing even more demons all over the place (which will continue to be the case until they get rid of the demons in their own head). I very strongly associate this way of blocking information about oneself- paired with some compulsion to 'point it out' about others- as being e6.

    What you wrote may apply to phobic e6 though, to some extent. (eta: It seems like phobic e6 goes through something similar- but instead of 'pointing it out', they freeze like a deer in headlights and don't know what to believe? Not sure.)
    Fuck, I'm guilty of this.
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  5. #65
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    Hmm. As a CP6 I can see this but I'm not sure you have the CP6's motivation down correctly. Definitely from a observer of CP6 behavior, which is interesting in its own right.

    Somewhere along their "crusade" it turns personal. This is where the CP6 goes off the rails. Best intentions turn awry and so forth. CP6 isn't normally going after someone because of self-righteousness. Quite the opposite. CP6's rarely feel better than anyone else. Which is why we are extremely egalitarian.

    How it can look like self-righteousness (which it can) is in us "sticking up" for what we see as a breakdown of fairness. Meaning someone is cheating the system or inversely taking advantage of others. It doesn't matter to the CP6 whether this is purposeful or incidental fallout - until the CP6 investigates further. Then, if the CP6 realizes said person is doing this purposefully - they will zero in and try to oust that person of their credibility.

    You won't be able to change their minds about said person and witch-hunting will commence and in their attempt to destroy said person, their behavior can get nasty because once we see someone "playing dirty" we do the same. Fair is fair. To outsiders, this can look hypocritical and self-righteous, not to mention completely contradictory to their normal behavior. The motivation for said behavior is in protecting someone/something sacred to the CP6. I just wanted to clarify.

    Thats not to say assumption made by observation by the CP6 is correct. If it isn't, it causes disaster for everyone including the CP6. We can get hung with our own noose. It happens. CP6's would do well to remember the big picture and not get too bogged down with seek-and-destroy type behavior.
    Good example of this: Chris Hitchens going after Mother Theresa.
    Autistic INFP


  6. #66
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    I have come to a surprising realization about Type 1, that we aren't always the hard working perfectionist that is always striving for more responsibilities and opportunities for self-improvement. In terms of my own conditioning, I see perfection as being innate without undergoing much hard-work, leading me to see various things that hard working 1s might laud such as studying in school as "for the mentally imperfect", leaving me to not see my self-criticism as an attack on how I'm not working hard enough, but an attack on how I am not innately perfect, that I am flawed, corrupt, and even broken instead of the usual self-criticisms one might expect of acting lazy, selfish, etc. Honestly, while this breed of 1s that I represent are ultimately more self-accepting of themselves due to a lack of constantly strenuous self-improvement, when the self-criticism does hit, it hits harder, lamenting on how we are inherently broken beyond repair, that we stand alone to wallow in our flaws.

  7. #67
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    All art is either plagiarism or a revolution.


    Agreed--my sister self-types as a social 4, but when she joined the emo movement, I had to question this. She makes fun of hipsters, though.


    I once read a 4 description which included the condescending advice that, "you don't need to always try to showcase your uniqueness. Try to peg your identity less on this" or something to that effect. Clearly, this author did not understand type 4.

    I can't speak for the others, but I personally can't help it. It may seem so to others, but no "showcasing" is intended--I just kind of do the things I like. Even in the instances where I need to be "normal", it somehow backfires on me, hence me constantly wondering what's "wrong" with me and why I'm so messed up.

    Being thought of as "unique" can be a point of pride for me, but also a wedge between myself and humanity. And it's really only a consequence of my inability to "sell-out" rather than anything I have specifically striven for. In my mind, it's all just obvious and normal.





    GUYS. SO much agreement.

    Now me, I'm as much of a slob as the 9s mentioned here (lovely sp-last)...but I've noticed that 9s are amongst the types most likely to decry others' selfishness, yet can be some of the most startlingly selfish people on the enneagram.

    There's a reluctance to take moral responsibility (like reporting an affair to a questioning spouse) lest it disturb inner peace or upset others. It's like, Ummm...you gonna deal with this or let it blow up on the rest of us??" (You know what the answer is).

    My parents are both 9s, and the times I've needed them most, they suddenly go absent. They feel that their presence doesn't "really matter" and they'd sooner not bother. Even when you ask them. With 9s, there's a major undertone of "not my problem". And, you can't even make them face their crimes.

    I don't say that to bash 9s, but it's the legitimate downside of a psychological base designed to maintain inner equilibrium. All is sacrificed to the God of Peace.
    Hence the 9 businessperson or national leader who does horrible things and is yet able to sleep at night.
    Autistic INFP


  8. #68
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I have come to a surprising realization about Type 1, that we aren't always the hard working perfectionist that is always striving for more responsibilities and opportunities for self-improvement. In terms of my own conditioning, I see perfection as being innate without undergoing much hard-work, leading me to see various things that hard working 1s might laud such as studying in school as "for the mentally imperfect", leaving me to not see my self-criticism as an attack on how I'm not working hard enough, but an attack on how I am not innately perfect, that I am flawed, corrupt, and even broken instead of the usual self-criticisms one might expect of acting lazy, selfish, etc. Honestly, while this breed of 1s that I represent are ultimately more self-accepting of themselves due to a lack of constantly strenuous self-improvement, when the self-criticism does hit, it hits harder, lamenting on how we are inherently broken beyond repair, that we stand alone to wallow in our flaws.
    This is extremely true, in particular what I bolded. I think this is a big reason why some might not type themselves as a one. They think ones try so hard to be perfect, that they might appear to be so. It's sort of makes 1's to appear super-human, when they totally aren't. Or at minimum, be well structured and put together. That's not the case. Just because someone is perfectionistic, does not equate to them being good at that. That said, it very often is the case that being "good" at it is in place, largely because I'd imagine a 1 that isn't would be under stress all the time and be a complete fucking trainwreck.

    But yes, a core feature of 1 is feeling pressured for this idealized vision of "perfection", even if one sees that it is impossible to be reached. Doesn't mean they're always doing somethings towards that either. It's just something that's often felt.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
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  9. #69
    LadyLazarus
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    That 5's possess actual bodies, I thought they looked like this before:


  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I have come to a surprising realization about Type 1, that we aren't always the hard working perfectionist that is always striving for more responsibilities and opportunities for self-improvement. In terms of my own conditioning, I see perfection as being innate without undergoing much hard-work, leading me to see various things that hard working 1s might laud such as studying in school as "for the mentally imperfect", leaving me to not see my self-criticism as an attack on how I'm not working hard enough, but an attack on how I am not innately perfect, that I am flawed, corrupt, and even broken instead of the usual self-criticisms one might expect of acting lazy, selfish, etc. Honestly, while this breed of 1s that I represent are ultimately more self-accepting of themselves due to a lack of constantly strenuous self-improvement, when the self-criticism does hit, it hits harder, lamenting on how we are inherently broken beyond repair, that we stand alone to wallow in our flaws.
    Interesting points. I totally agree with you and @Hard that 1s aren't always people who work really hard all the time, and some 1s are more reformers than perfectionists, and I'll get back to that. But that description honestly seemed more 4 than 1 to me. "broken beyond repair" and "we stand alone to wallow in our flaws" seem especially 4-ish. Both 1s and 4s are very aware of their flaws, have ideals they want to live up to and feel frustrated with themselves for not meeting them. I think one of the biggest differences is that 1s want to fix their flaws whereas 4s are more ambivalent about them, sometimes feeling that they are broken and defective and wanting to take on what they see as the positive qualities of others, but also seeing their flaws/differences as a source of pride, and something that makes them who they are, so that fixing them would take away a vital part of their identity.

    On the other hand, I can see what you mean in that a 1 might feel that if they're struggling with, E.G. studying, that reflects badly on their intellectual ability and they shouldn't find it so difficult, but I'd assume most 1s would see that as something that needs to be improved. The Enneagram is complicated; there's the line of dis/integration between 1 and 4, so there are people who are one of those types who are strongly influenced by the other. There are Sp 4s, who can look like 1s, and Sx 1s have more of an orientation towards getting what they want. There's also the 9 wing's focus on being rather than doing, so maybe for some people that translates into being perfect rather than doing things to make themselves perfect. So I'm not necessarily saying you're mistyped as there could be an explanation in all that complication, but I don't understand how you can be a 1 who doesn't believe you can improve upon whatever you perceive as your flaws. Again, I'm not saying 1s are constantly working towards self-improvement, because I think there are actually things about being a 1 that can get in the way of that goal, but I'll get into that in another post later. Also, with the 4 stress point, I do think 1s can wallow in their flaws sometimes, although not as much as actual 4s. But "broken beyond repair" sounds like a really hopeless place for a 1.

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