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  1. #51
    Senior Member mcgooglian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Yes. This. I dated a nine and I think he acted unaware for the most part to avoid blame/confrontation, but then every once in awhile he'd say things which made it pretty obvious he knew everything. Nines, with their need to maintain inner peace, can be quite hurtful.
    I know half the time I act unaware, it's to see how people react to stuff. The other time, it's just to be left alone to do my own thing.

  2. #52
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    How did I disagree with you? I understood what you said. I only sought to clarify what I saw as an important distinction in motivation of CP6's that might complete the other side of your viewpoint. No need for defense.
    Maybe “disagreeable” was a poor word choice. I didn’t think you were arguing.

    I just find this thing about how it doesn’t seem like ‘self-righteousness’ interesting. I do get how it isn’t about being the hero (because that does sorta imply there’s something image related about the motivation- and it isn’t about the 6 wanting others to perceive her/him in some specific way, it’s about fixing some ‘wrong’ out there in the world, yes?). I have noticed in CP6 this distinct tendency (and again- probably making it sound like I think it’s more prevalent than it is), it’s like a need to shoot first (shoot first/ask questions later). That’s the thing I’m trying to understand. But I really don’t want to derail the thread. If someone starts an 'ask an e6' thread, I'll take it over there.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  3. #53
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Yes! (Minus the slob part. I'm definitely not a super clean person, though. Somewhere in between.) Nines are great at breaking hearts. I'm sorry you've had to deal with that. Their disappearing act definitely hurts.

    As a person married to a six I approve this message. It's like a self soothing for themselves, I think, because it scares them that you might have something truly wrong with you. They don't disappear like a nine, but they don't want to go there, either. As problem solvers, they want to fix things quickly- even if it sometimes means not really fixing things.

    My mom is a 1w2 and she's like this too. Very strong connection to seven. But extremely moral and principled in a way that's quintessentially one.
    Thanks for relating to me!

    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    This isn't unusual 8 behaviour if at 'average' to 'unhealthy' levels.
    I guess what struck about it most was the irony of me being 4w5, yet I felt he was being too sensitive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    My #1 problem with 4 descriptions is that the tell you nothing about how they come across. You get a lot of stuff about their motivations and inner thoughts, but 4s (for the most part) don't wear a neon sign declaring their type. I agree with what others have said, a lot of the counter-culture movements and behaviours typically associated with 4s, don't necessarily correlate with the type well. If I gave a list of the type descriptions to anyone I know, except maybe my mother, no one I know would say I was a 4 - they'd probably say I was a 5, a 1 or a 9. I just think people are looking for the wrong indicators when they think about 4s. I mean, people make that mistake with all types, but I think 4s are often thought of more in terms of sheer caricature, than most of the others.
    Yes, that's right. I mistyped for many years due, in part, to this caricature.

    I should put my own example here, "what I was surprised to learn about 4s" but am running short of time.

  4. #54
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    What do you find surprising (if anything) about type 5s?
    INtp
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  5. #55
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Such Irony View Post
    What do you find surprising (if anything) about type 5s?
    Whatever you take from this: 5 is in between two reactive types, as easy as it is to forget this detail. You shouldn't.
    4w3 6w5 1w2 sx/sp ISFP

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    A lonely island where only what is permitted to move moves, becomes an ideal. Jung

    Kiss Kiss [johari] Bang Bang [nohari]

  6. #56
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    I've recently been surprised to find everything already said about 9's here, to be true. I've only experienced one 9 in close proximity, and very recently. My roommate is a 9 who was mistyped as a 4w3 (for 3 years) until I moved in with her. Haha, it only took a month of living with me for her to realize she could not possibly be a 4. Long story short, she reassessed and has self typed as a 9w8. I never outright told her she wasn't a 4, but I definitely thought it and asked her lots of questions about the many qualities/behaviors she has that didn't fit. Anyway, yes-- she leaves the kitchen and bathroom a mess and quite literally thinks nothing of it. I've been pretty direct with her, which she has the gall to be annoyed with (but passively of course). Even when it's not a huge mess, just small inconsiderate things like bits of food in the kitchen sink (I clean the sink out every time I do dishes), or having people over until like 4 am on a weekday...and she's in her early thirties. It's tough because she's actually a nice and interesting person, but that tendency to be inconsiderate drives me crazy. I think living with her has made me that much more certain of my typing as INFJ because I do care alot about showing respect and courtesy to others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    I would certainly agree with this (though at times I wonder whether the perception of 4 isn't just caricature but also misrepresentation). I too would not be believed if I told people my type. I certainly never identified with nor affiliated with emo/goth/hipster culture when growing up. I wonder how many 4's actually pay no real attention to their physical appearance or how they dress because they can feel authentic enough by merely thinking and feeling certain things and sufficiently express their authenticity merely through their ideas or their character.
    I agree that 4 is too often related with very specific style groups (the ones you've mentioned) but please do not think 4's don't care about personal aesthetics! I don't belong to any of the aforementioned style groups, but I do certainly have my own style (and so does every other 4 I've met). My style is not popular fashion, but more of an expression of who I am-- just as my artwork is. I think of getting dressed as similar to creating a painting.

    I agree also with the thought that fours are mainly about authenticity more than uniqueness.
    Find my Enneagram writing here. Also, I'd love for you to take my six question Enneagram surveyEnneagram survey!✨

  7. #57
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PimpinMcBoltage View Post
    Refinement

    An inclination to refinement (and the corresponding aversion to grossness) is manifest in descriptors such as “stylish,” “delicate,” “elegant,” “tasteful,” “artistic,” “sensitive,” and sometimes “arty” and “affected,” “mannered” and “posturing.” They may be understood as efforts on the part of the person to compensate for a poor self-image (so that an ugly self-image and the refined self-ideal may be seen as reciprocally supporting each other); also, they convey the attempt on the part of the person to be something different from what he or she is, perhaps connected to class envy. The lack of originality entailed by such imitativeness in turn; perpetuates an envy of originality—just as the attempt to imitate original individuals and the wish to emulate spontaneity are doomed to fail.
    At face value this part legitimately surprised me, because it just flat out says that 4's are actually emulating the greats/artistics rather than actually being original themselves. You always hear that 4's are the original artistic type, so it's pretty surprising to see this part about them. (Someone else responded to this and clarified it for me, so thanks
    I am not surprised by this. I can't expect any 4 would be.... Contrivance is part of being an image type.

    For the 4, it's a matter of striving to meet an idealized self, and always falling short (or feeling so). 4s also "introject", which means many things but one is that we internalize concepts and use them as symbols of our identity (we also introject others' behaviors as commentary on our own significance, hence being too sensitive & absorbed). Hence, adopting style we may associate with a quality we see our fantasy self as possessing (which we see as our true selves or our potential to become).

    I think "stealing" from others is a part of the shame - what is truly from YOU could not be that good. And introjection can lead to very narrow concepts if the person feels a large gap between how they appear & how they feel, although masochistic set-ups to fail in making the right impression is common here too.

    But the healthier a 4 gets, the more likely they are to be more original and to create their own symbols.

    This is why healthy 4s (and probably average ones too) can be extremely creative because they will believe in the significance of their own creations, the legitimacy of the meaning the create, and the depth of their insights. Prior to that, they may simply adopt a snobbishness which LOOKs like they feel they are refined, but it's something of a defense, and it also extends from an envy towards things viewed as great that the 4 sees as mundane (they become resentful and suddenly demanding of recognition, especially sx-dom). Really, lower functioning 4s may feel too bad about themselves to dare to be fully original, or to even try to create much at all. Many can get stuck in fantasy, and then at most they just have a persona of being arty or deep, with nothing much to back it up except tastes & feelings. Even these 4s can be tagged as creative by others because they will be seen as having a flair about them or great taste or always knowing what the obscure, coo stuff is, etc, but in actuality all they've created is an image (and they know it & hate themselves for it).


    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    I assume this means that the whole thing has been explained but if not then I think I can shed light on the matter. Enneagram fours (at least those I've encountered) have a poor self image which (when not in inflated special snowflake mode) can preclude the observation of any legitimate strengths they may have - in this case that they are original in their own right. For example if one created a number of story or fantasy worlds inside their head but then they could in turn quickly determine the source(s) of the various ideas they would perceive themselves as someone only capable of mere regurgitation of the creativity of others and not actually being someone who is original and creative themselves. Perceiving themselves as a fake or deficient in their desired area they turn their attention to other creative people who they think actually possess genuine originality and creativity and desire to emulate them in order to make up for where they lack (note that they desire to emulate only in the area of their perceived deficiency. They have no desire to emulate the entire person beyond those points.)

    Whilst in the above case the individual probably does fairly classify as a creative individual as they have may have turned an existing idea into a brand new permutation e.g. an idea used in a different setting or different circumstances to create a different effect this only comes into play during the inflation of the ego (the ignoring of one's self esteem issues for the sake of feeling special). It doesn't help that others come to the conclusion of originality for that individual when that individual themselves realises that the observer's opinion is created merely because they are not aware of the idea's source.

    The above is just one scenario but from what I understand it occurs across the board in a large number of creative outlets (perhaps all of them).
    Yes, this describes it well.

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    On the surface, I don't really think I have a vibe that is in your face. I've tended to prefer to blend into the woodwork and have little flair. Or understated flair.
    I don't see myself as an individualist either. I don't go out of my way to be unique or anything. I do go out of my way to do or wear or say, etc, what feels most congruent with "who I am", which tends to be some idealized self. And I usually feel I fall short of it. Sometimes when I do something I know is odd but which feels right to me, I may feel some defiance of "screw it! I don't care what people think" but my demeanor is that of someone shy (and perhaps ashamed), or I will be so closed off to reactions that I seem aloof. This is likely where the "snob" tag comes in for me... I think I build a wall to fend off anticipated negative reactions to "being myself". Instead of some in-your-face individualist, I'm more like someone who sheepishly goes about being themselves, because it's too dreary not to be myself (and I'm either invisible or disliked anyway, so goes the inner monologue), not to make a statement or get a reaction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misty View Post
    I think true originality is impossible. We can rip off styles and stories even without consciously remembering our influences. Even absent of derivation, I constantly come up with independent, out of nowhere ideas that other people have had before just because there are so many brains in the world, and thus the probability is high. So, I just do what I to do, look as I want to look, and don't worry about that.
    I can relate to this, as far as doing what I want, etc, except that I am highly aware of my inspirations/influences. I think some of the "shame" for me is being seen as "original" and "creative" by people (because I hear it a lot), but knowing my sources, and not being able to accept the positive feedback (I feel a phony even if I acted authentically). What I may fail to credit myself for is perhaps doing it in my own way or with my own flair, and more importantly, because I just like it, not because I want to be seen a certain way... I do idealize being someone who is innovative more than just striking, but I usually end up in the latter place. Why this seems original is often because there is such a juxtaposition of elements that it seems "fresh" or I will stubbornly be consistent in something to sort of brand it as "mine".
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  8. #58
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    Considering how fives fear being useless, helpless and incapable, when they finally attach in relationships, they can be quite clingy and needy.
    I find this true also.

    ------

    The descriptions don't go into how much of a BULLY 2s can be. The "helper" title seems all wrong (but I suppose it is meant to appeal to their ego; I don't know many who actually AREE helpful, or not in any way that is not self-serving and meant to indebt others to them). Also, lots of e2s (especially the ESFP 2w3 sx/sp and sp/sx) are the "seductive" 2s who promise a lot and put out some exciting, sexy image and then once they have someone they fall apart and need to be babied, or they get bored and move onto the next conquest. They are insatiable for love, affection & admiration, and it's not always through "helping" that they get it. They just FEEL that they have a lot to offer, but they don't always in actuality OFFER anything, and they can convince others of what they FEEL and never even deliver.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  9. #59
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I don't see myself as an individualist either. I don't go out of my way to be unique or anything. I do go out of my way to do or wear or say, etc, what feels most congruent with "who I am", which tends to be some idealized self. And I usually feel I fall short of it. Sometimes when I do something I know is odd but which feels right to me, I may feel some defiance of "screw it! I don't care what people think" but my demeanor is that of someone shy (and perhaps ashamed), or I will be so closed off to reactions that I seem aloof. This is likely where the "snob" tag comes in for me... I think I build a wall to fend off anticipated negative reactions to "being myself". Instead of some in-your-face individualist, I'm more like someone who sheepishly goes about being themselves, because it's too dreary not to be myself (and I'm either invisible or disliked anyway, so goes the inner monologue), not to make a statement or get a reaction.
    You've done it again, Ms. Appled. You always explain what it's like to be a 4 so perfectly, or at least share an experience similar to that of my own.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  10. #60
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    I'm sorry to bring up 9's again, but I just had a problem arise recently that got me thinking about this one. I surprised how "fleeting" 9's can be when it comes to friendships, when a romance comes along. Both of the ISFP 9's sx I know irl really take off with the wind when a love interest comes along, more so than any other type I know. They really merge who they are with the other, and seem to refuse to spend any time without their lover. Are they the most passionate type?
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

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