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  1. #41
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Ahhh. Okay, that makes sense.

    I half want to ask if the lack of a sense of self is the reason a CP6 in full bloom can't see him/herself as the source of the misunderstanding (as in- and not even consciously- but "the self can't be wrong because there is no self"), but the other half of me doesn't want to derail the thread further. That is interesting though. Thanks.
    Sure, glad I could clarify! Your post was especially interesting to me because I'd seen the situation play out so recently and plainly IRL.

    Might as well answer your question, I figure; it seems on topic to me. Though other 6s should chime in, please, because I am not sure - all I can give is my personal feelings and experiences, and I rarely act counterphobically.

    In any case, for myself, I've been accused of not seeing myself as the cause before, and it's always because I see problems as being very systemic. I don't typically think in terms of fault, just in terms of poor systems and the underlying reasons systems aren't working as they should. In line with thinking systemically, I tend to explain why I did things in a situation, which apparently can come off as "making excuses". I'm also very aware of and upfront about admitting my flaws, I feel like, so I tend to get frustrated when someone who rarely admits their own flaws blames me for something, even for something that is my fault. It seems like an abuse of fair play.

    I think the example at work I was talking about was an instance of reaction formation on the part of the cp 6. She spent hours at work yelling about how she would never cheat on her husband with another man, which was the rumor that was going around. Months later, we found out that she was essentially emotionally cheating, at least at first, and later physically. As theory goes, she would therefore be attempting to placate her own feelings of anxiety about cheating with her husband by "drowning it out" in her own mind, at least for as long as she could keep crusading against it. It would be in line with the cp 6 desire to quash anxiety, but in this case it's not from an imagined problem, but from a real one.

    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown
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    I'm on board with all but this one. Any chance you feel like elaborating?

  2. #42
    climb on Showbread's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    8s. They can be weirdly sensitive. Like I had this friend (8w7) who got rejected from a group project (and this was in college, so they were all grown adults). It put him in a bad mood like literally all day, and he told me about it several days later, still pissed off and chagrined. I was thinking, Dude, why is this bothering you so much?? As a 4w5, this is part of my daily reality so I can sympathise, but still, this was not what I expected of him!
    YES. My 8 roommate can really dish it, and in general has a pretty thick skin. But, every once and a while she takes things insanely personally. It always just comes out of no where too. Like one time a friend of ours took apart a puzzle she had been working on and she flipped out.
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  3. #43
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    @Elfboy I liked what you said about 3s. I think it's rather true. The type often gets painted as desperate for admiration and attention from others. They don't all need to have their ego stroked to have perfectly healthy self-esteem.

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    There was another time I was trying to prepare a meal for myself, her and her boyfriend. She's a vegetarian, so I bought her some of the faux meat. I was trying to prepare the meal, and was going to cook the real meat first since it takes longer to cook, then was going to cook the faux meat last. I had it all planned out, and asked if she would help cut the vegetables. Just as I was getting the stove fired up, she came and put her faux meat on to start cooking it. I was irritated because I didn't want both of us standing at the stove together, and wanted her to just take care of the other portion of the meal, that way there wouldn't be any mix ups. We just kept getting in one another's way. Then! Then the spoons from the real meat and the faux meat kept getting mixed up. I wanted to prevent this from occurring by just cooking the two at separate times, but alas she sorta screwed that up. She got upset that the spoon that was in the meat got her on vegetarian version. I told her to just get away from the stove at this point. Then the spoons got mixed up again, completely my fault this time. She then exclaimed, "I can't eat this." I could have screamed at that moment. I took the frying pan and threw the contents straight into the trash in anger. It angered me because I wanted to do something nice and had it all worked out in my head, what needed to be cooked at what time, etc. I felt as though she was inconsiderate in just leaping in and worrying about her faux meat before anything else, rather than asking me what needed to be done on the meal I was planning. Maybe I'm just rigid.
    Dear god, this sounds so much like my 9w1 friend. Not the whole vegetarian aspect, but the behaviour. I feel as if I've been in the very situation many times before

    9s can be quite... dither-y and oblivious.

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    I guess, something to be surprised by type 4's is their need for cleanliness. I just realized most of us bitching about 9's messy behavior's are 4's.
    Sorry to buck the trend but I'm a very messy 4, but I do relate to the underlying element of being slightly more precise and on top of things than 9s. I feel like I cautiously hover on the edge of what's acceptable/sufficient (in terms of organisation, being on time, respecting/recognising people's needs etc), and consequently have very little patience for people that are worse than me. Hypocritical perhaps, but I don't take well to being forced into becoming the more responsible and reliable party.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    I once read a 4 description which included the condescending advice that, "you don't need to always try to showcase your uniqueness. Try to peg your identity less on this" or something to that effect. Clearly, this author did not understand type 4.

    I can't speak for the others, but I personally can't help it. It may seem so to others, but no "showcasing" is intended--I just kind of do the things I like. Even in the instances where I need to be "normal", it somehow backfires on me, hence me constantly wondering what's "wrong" with me and why I'm so messed up.

    Being thought of as "unique" can be a point of pride for me, but also a wedge between myself and humanity. And it's really only a consequence of my inability to "sell-out" rather than anything I have specifically striven for. In my mind, it's all just obvious and normal.
    My #1 problem with 4 descriptions is that the tell you nothing about how they come across. You get a lot of stuff about their motivations and inner thoughts, but 4s (for the most part) don't wear a neon sign declaring their type. I agree with what others have said, a lot of the counter-culture movements and behaviours typically associated with 4s, don't necessarily correlate with the type well. If I gave a list of the type descriptions to anyone I know, except maybe my mother, no one I know would say I was a 4 - they'd probably say I was a 5, a 1 or a 9. I just think people are looking for the wrong indicators when they think about 4s. I mean, people make that mistake with all types, but I think 4s are often thought of more in terms of sheer caricature, than most of the others.
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  4. #44
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    @Elfboy I liked what you said about 3s. I think it's rather true. The type often gets painted as desperate for admiration and attention from others. They don't all need to have their ego stroked to have perfectly healthy self-esteem.
    many of the descriptions of 3 are much more similar to unhealthy 2s, 6s and 7s than they are actual 3s.
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  5. #45
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    7s:
    1) much more connected to the gut center than they appear at first glance (yes, even 7w6). most of the time, they're in their heads chasing grandiose visions or tactically maneuvering to get what they want in the external world, but when push comes to shove, their energy drops to their gut and they can come across much like an 8 or a 1 (it's different from the more reactive, anxiety based conflict style of a cp6). the difference is it typically comes off as more Id than a 1 and more self righteous than an 8, having a bit of a, for lack of a better word, operatic quality to it.
    2) despite being a head type, 7s really don't experience much anxiety and are lot more relaxed that they typically come across as.

    3s:
    much more independent than they're given credit for. their pursuit of independence rivals that of 8s.

    4s:
    usually much more others focused than descriptions would have you believe. 5s, 7s and 8s are the true self focused types.

    Quote Originally Posted by chana View Post
    Exactly. There is nothing original about being a hipster, goth, emo, etc. so I don't get why that's so heavily associated with 4.
    I mostly associate emo and goth more with young, frustrated Sx/Sps. being an Sx/Sp comes with a lot of feelings of isolation and hunger for that part of you that's missing, so it's no surprise to me that such feelings can manifest in some pretty dark shit. being a 7 with a 3 fix, my own feelings of frustration and hunger don't overtake my exterior so completely, but I could see how they would for a less
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcgooglian View Post
    It all depends on the 9. I've seen some who are blissfully unaware, whereas having an 8 wing myself, the inconsiderateness is more due to apathy than being unaware.
    Yes. This. I dated a nine and I think he acted unaware for the most part to avoid blame/confrontation, but then every once in awhile he'd say things which made it pretty obvious he knew everything. Nines, with their need to maintain inner peace, can be quite hurtful.

    @Elfboy, I think goth is more of a social thing. Sx/sp types are dark internally but don't feel a need so much to display their darkness in how they dress and who their friends are. A fellow 4w5 sx/sp friend of mine and I laugh at this whole idea that 4w5 sx/sps would look like they stepped out of a Tim Burton movie. Neither one of us puts that much effort into how we look. Our interests lie elsewhere. Now emo, I guess that applies. But not in a 'I hang out with the emo kids' way. And I really wouldn't use the term to describe myself. All of those sort of terms strike me as social terms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    Being thought of as "unique" can be a point of pride for me, but also a wedge between myself and humanity. And it's really only a consequence of my inability to "sell-out" rather than anything I have specifically striven for. In my mind, it's all just obvious and normal.

    Now me, I'm as much of a slob as the 9s mentioned here (lovely sp-last)...but I've noticed that 9s are amongst the types most likely to decry others' selfishness, yet can be some of the most startlingly selfish people on the enneagram.

    There's a reluctance to take moral responsibility (like reporting an affair to a questioning spouse) lest it disturb inner peace or upset others. It's like, Ummm...you gonna deal with this or let it blow up on the rest of us??" (You know what the answer is).

    My parents are both 9s, and the times I've needed them most, they suddenly go absent. They feel that their presence doesn't "really matter" and they'd sooner not bother. Even when you ask them. With 9s, there's a major undertone of "not my problem". And, you can't even make them face their crimes.

    I don't say that to bash 9s, but it's the legitimate downside of a psychological base designed to maintain inner equilibrium. All is sacrificed to the God of Peace.
    Yes! (Minus the slob part. I'm definitely not a super clean person, though. Somewhere in between.) Nines are great at breaking hearts. I'm sorry you've had to deal with that. Their disappearing act definitely hurts.


    6s. Sometimes, for all they try to cover bases and are capable of heroism under fire...sometimes they don't want to face how ugly problems can really be. Like a while back, I told my (biological) 6w5 father that I thought I was going under psychologically. I expected him to rush to support me or offer to send aid; something that would help--and he recoiled in horror. He was like, Um, no. You're not going under. You wouldn't be coherent and able to ask for help if you were going under...right? RIGHT?? All better, see? Just keep putting one foot in front of the other, right? He like, totally Sevened out on me. This was incredibly depressing at the time.
    As a person married to a six I approve this message. It's like a self soothing for themselves, I think, because it scares them that you might have something truly wrong with you. They don't disappear like a nine, but they don't want to go there, either. As problem solvers, they want to fix things quickly- even if it sometimes means not really fixing things.


    1s. Can be really fun and light-hearted and eager to try new things outside of their Correctness Sphere. I remember my 1w2 grandmother as being the most fun person in the family, actually. You just didn't want to mess up the house or get in her way during holidays, lol.
    My mom is a 1w2 and she's like this too. Very strong connection to seven. But extremely moral and principled in a way that's quintessentially one.

  7. #47
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    8s. They can be weirdly sensitive. Like I had this friend (8w7) who got rejected from a group project (and this was in college, so they were all grown adults). It put him in a bad mood like literally all day, and he told me about it several days later, still pissed off and chagrined. I was thinking, Dude, why is this bothering you so much?? As a 4w5, this is part of my daily reality so I can sympathise, but still, this was not what I expected of him!
    This isn't unusual 8 behaviour if at 'average' to 'unhealthy' levels.

    When this happens, Eights feel misunderstood and may distance themselves further. In fact, beneath their imposing exterior, Eights often feel hurt and rejected, although this is something they seldom talk about because they have trouble admitting their vulnerability to themselves, let alone to anyone else. Because they fear that they will be rejected (divorced, humiliated, criticized, fired, or harmed in some way), Eights attempt to defend themselves by rejecting others first. The result is that average Eights become blocked in their ability to connect with people or to love since love gives the other power over them, reawakening their Basic Fear.

    The more Eights build up their egos in order to protect themselves, the more sensitive they become to any real or imaginary slight to their self-respect, authority, or preeminence. The more they attempt to make themselves impervious to hurt or pain (whether physical or emotional), the more they “shut down” emotionally to become hardened and rock-like.
    http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/typeeight.asp

  8. #48
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post

    Does that make more sense? Or is that still disagreeable?

    *waits to be surprised to find out something about e6*

    [And apologies for kinda derailing into side tangent.]
    How did I disagree with you? I understood what you said. I only sought to clarify what I saw as an important distinction in motivation of CP6's that might complete the other side of your viewpoint. No need for defense.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    My #1 problem with 4 descriptions is that the tell you nothing about how they come across. You get a lot of stuff about their motivations and inner thoughts, but 4s (for the most part) don't wear a neon sign declaring their type. I agree with what others have said, a lot of the counter-culture movements and behaviours typically associated with 4s, don't necessarily correlate with the type well. If I gave a list of the type descriptions to anyone I know, except maybe my mother, no one I know would say I was a 4 - they'd probably say I was a 5, a 1 or a 9. I just think people are looking for the wrong indicators when they think about 4s. I mean, people make that mistake with all types, but I think 4s are often thought of more in terms of sheer caricature, than most of the others.
    I would certainly agree with this (though at times I wonder whether the perception of 4 isn't just caricature but also misrepresentation). I too would not be believed if I told people my type. I certainly never identified with nor affiliated with emo/goth/hipster culture when growing up. I wonder how many 4's actually pay no real attention to their physical appearance or how they dress because they can feel authentic enough by merely thinking and feeling certain things and sufficiently express their authenticity merely through their ideas or their character.

  10. #50
    Member CatBalou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Sure, glad I could clarify! Your post was especially interesting to me because I'd seen the situation play out so recently and plainly IRL.

    Might as well answer your question, I figure; it seems on topic to me. Though other 6s should chime in, please, because I am not sure - all I can give is my personal feelings and experiences, and I rarely act counterphobically.

    In any case, for myself, I've been accused of not seeing myself as the cause before, and it's always because I see problems as being very systemic. I don't typically think in terms of fault, just in terms of poor systems and the underlying reasons systems aren't working as they should. In line with thinking systemically, I tend to explain why I did things in a situation, which apparently can come off as "making excuses". I'm also very aware of and upfront about admitting my flaws, I feel like, so I tend to get frustrated when someone who rarely admits their own flaws blames me for something, even for something that is my fault. It seems like an abuse of fair play.

    I think the example at work I was talking about was an instance of reaction formation on the part of the cp 6. She spent hours at work yelling about how she would never cheat on her husband with another man, which was the rumor that was going around. Months later, we found out that she was essentially emotionally cheating, at least at first, and later physically. As theory goes, she would therefore be attempting to placate her own feelings of anxiety about cheating with her husband by "drowning it out" in her own mind, at least for as long as she could keep crusading against it. It would be in line with the cp 6 desire to quash anxiety, but in this case it's not from an imagined problem, but from a real one.
    I've done this kind of stuff under extreme stress. In my last job, I had about a year of people pointing out to me that the problems I was complaining about in other people were actually created by me. I couldn't see it at all, until I got out of there. I'd got into a cycle of feeling paranoid, reacting to perceived slights, the other people reacting badly to that hostility and me then having a hostile reaction to their bad reaction. I knew I felt confused and anxious, but the paranoid thoughts seemed so real I couldn't see that I was creating the problems myself.

    I can definitely relate your co-worker example, being in denial of your own dark side in the hope that you'll become the person you say you are. I spent a long time emphatically telling my friends I would never go near a married man - until of course I did...

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    As a person married to a six I approve this message. It's like a self soothing for themselves, I think, because it scares them that you might have something truly wrong with you. They don't disappear like a nine, but they don't want to go there, either. As problem solvers, they want to fix things quickly- even if it sometimes means not really fixing things.
    I really hate it when I find myself doing this. It is definitely that the problem seems too big and scary to deal with. I'm aware of what I'm doing at the time but it's very hard to reopen the subject after shutting it down

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