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Thread: Four vs Six

  1. #51
    Stansmith
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    I think very few people have much of an idea of what I'm like. Either that, or I just don't identify with whatever idea they may have of me based on my interactions with them.

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    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    I think very few people have much of an idea of what I'm like. Either that, or I just don't identify with whatever idea they may have of me based on my interactions with them.
    ditto.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  3. #53
    Senior Member Noon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    <great post>
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    <great post>
    These are great posts... generally too a great thread. Oy, more thinking to do.

    Issue #1 I'm turning over and over is the discrepancy between what 'truths' I've introspected or self-analyzed to and the 'truths' that have ended up playing out in my actions, relations, life (this is what made me want to take another look in the first place). Issue #2 is almost the same in reverse: how events in my life have impacted my inner terrain. The 6 fixation in the broadest sense is how I live and perceive but in some ways it feels like just a scab covering the 4 fixation that I also live and perceive much less pleasantly. Might have to gather my thoughts and make another blank space post in a few wks or something.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Noon's Avatar
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    Actually, sorry for the double post but I do have a few thoughts right now that I can't help but want to post.

    4s are more lone wolfs, rejecting before being rejected, using an identity of refinement to make up for feeling ugly inside, etc, and elitism is more in the demeanor than the action itself
    The first two are too true - and I tend to have this subconscious expectation that in most group situations people will as usual just somehow magically be aware that I'm with the group and not in it, so certain things are "just different" when it comes to me. Not an expectation of special treatment as much as... just different treatment. Separate treatment. I wasn't aware of the full extent of this until recently. It's some combination of having been left to my own devices so often as a child and having been the black sheep in so many contexts otherwise.

    The bold - feeling ugly inside - is almost funny because of how relevant it's turned out to be. I talked about this before a lot with someone. I tried to explain it as not even really being an appearance or self-esteem thing but something a lot more abstract. Said I even felt ashamed of writing poetry and collecting art because they're so beautiful and I felt ugly, profane, something like that. I don't know that I want to appear refined, I just like certain things and in the process, oddly, don't always feel 'worthy' of them because of how ideal they are while I'm not. He thought it was strange that I could see 'so much beauty everywhere' but was so discriminating when it came to myself. And two 4s I used to know, one felt something similar and the other never said so directly but wrote something portraying himself as a proud warts-and-all outcast who'd outgrown the compulsion to be 'beautiful' (as the Others hadn't). That's in both cases sort of how we instantly felt alike.

    The person who probably knows me best after myself is a 4. We have our differences - like I believe he's more open to all aspects of himself and more feeling-centered - but I wonder how much of it boils down to INFJ vs INFP.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noon View Post
    Actually, sorry for the double post but I do have a few thoughts right now that I can't help but want to post.



    The first two are too true - and I tend to have this subconscious expectation that in most group situations people will as usual just somehow magically be aware that I'm with the group and not in it, so certain things are "just different" when it comes to me. Not an expectation of special treatment as much as... just different treatment. Separate treatment. I wasn't aware of the full extent of this until recently. It's some combination of having been left to my own devices so often as a child and having been the black sheep in so many contexts otherwise.

    The bold - feeling ugly inside - is almost funny because of how relevant it's turned out to be. I talked about this before a lot with someone. I tried to explain it as not even really being an appearance or self-esteem thing but something a lot more abstract. Said I even felt ashamed of writing poetry and collecting art because they're so beautiful and I felt ugly, profane, something like that. I don't know that I want to appear refined, I just like certain things and in the process, oddly, don't always feel 'worthy' of them because of how ideal they are while I'm not. He thought it was strange that I could see 'so much beauty everywhere' but was so discriminating when it came to myself. And two 4s I used to know, one felt something similar and the other never said so directly but wrote something portraying himself as a proud warts-and-all outcast who'd outgrown the compulsion to be 'beautiful' (as the Others hadn't). That's in both cases sort of how we instantly felt alike.

    The person who probably knows me best after myself is a 4. We have our differences - like I believe he's more open to all aspects of himself and more feeling-centered - but I wonder how much of it boils down to INFJ vs INFP.
    Some points you should bear in mind:
    Writing poetry and having a strong sense of aesthetics is not indicative of E4 (what and how you write might be, of course).
    Feeling self-hatred is less of a 4 trait than a generally depressive trait.
    6s are inclined to question what is wrong with others/the world, whereas 4s will question what is wrong with themselves.
    6s and 4s both suffer from leaving the present moment; however while 6s try to imagine their future, 4s reflect on their past.

    Here's another post from PerC on this.

    A lot of Sixes are mistyping as Fours. One of the reason for mistyping is due to how type 4 is frequently described. The picture of a romantic, feeling, artistic and melancholic type is especially appealing to all NF types regardless if they are actually 4s or not. On the other hand a lot of type 6 descriptions tend to give a rather SJ picture of a dutiful and loyal person. But even if you scratch off such rather stereotypical portrays there are a lot of 6s who will point out how much they can relate to the 4 descriptions.

    The interesting thing for me is how many people relate to the 4 descriptions but interpret them in a sixish way. A while ago I realized that there are similar words used to describe 4s and 6s which makes for some confusion. After some great help I can hopefully make better sense of it now.

    being different – being deviating
    understanding yourself – knowing yourself
    to be authentic – to be true to yourself

    It’s not a matter which set of terms you like better but what pattern lies behind those.

    Being different – being deviating
    Fours have a deep-ingrained feeling that there’s something wrong with them. They don’t know what it is, but it’s at the root of their alienation and their feeling of being different. Sixes on the other hand are a relating type and notice how they deviate from the norm and how they are different from others. It becomes noticeable in how both types react towards a changing or fixing. For Sixes it’s about getting rid of their flaws and fixing the things that make them deviate (Of course there’s also the counter version 6 who is deliberately deviating from the norm), whereas Fours don’t know what’s wrong with them. So how could you fix it anyway? But even if it would be possible there’s a repulsion coming up because it is so deeply ingrained in them, it’s part of who they are and getting rid of it would mean getting rid of who they are.

    Understanding yourself – knowing yourself
    The core fear of Sixes is of not knowing themselves and of not having an inner guidance. Knowing themselves means for Sixes to get a better sense of their self, to know what they are and want and of not following someone else’s lead or idea. Understanding for Fours means to understand what’s wrong with them. In comparison with Sixes they have a strong sense of self though they don’t think they understand themselves because understanding themselves would mean they would understand what makes them wrong.
    Getting healthy 6s will get a stronger sense of self while 4s realize there’s nothing wrong with them at all.

    To be authentic – to be true to yourself
    Being true to yourself ties in with the 6s fear of following someone’s elses lead and of not having an inner guidance. If they are in accordance with their own self and their own lead they are true to themselves. 4s as image-type are concerned about presenting themselves as authentic (being authentic) and of not showing off an artifical image.

  6. #56
    Senior Member KitchenFly's Avatar
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    Default Four vs Six

    The differences between Four vs Six is interesting.

    melancholy vs doubt

    melancholy is like known, "know the value" of subjective feeling sensed via and at the primary action of point three of the feeling triad. Having extended connections with its host primary energy point three's subsidiary wings point five and point one type four has an auxiliary connection with point five that affects both mood and agenda for the four and its connection at point one touches upon the relative relating dynamic component of primary point threes role as mass within the mass energy direct cognition tri-factor. within provides the fours sense of self, self has a concrete platform of bias; true or false the subjective is cleanly understood because the four is most out of touch with feeling and stands also within the Id grouping, a second bias is at work my identity my self detached from a complete, the sum is understood "i am Defective" fours deeper reason there is more that the one jigsaw puzzle i can see sense experience obstruct or comprehend,...there is some thing defective about me is the value believed. yet to be recognised is the full fixed design.

    and doubt is like power of an understanding I am the value exspirienced i can not separate myself from an awareness that I am feeling the thought of that i am the subjective "the known value" thought felt via and at the primary action of point six of the thinking triad. Having only connection within its own host energy primary energy point six's subsidiary wing's, point eight and point four, type six has an auxiliary connection with point five that affects both mood and agenda for the six and its connection at point nine touches upon the relative relating dynamic component of primary point six role as energy the mass energy direct cognition tri-factor. Within provides the six feeling of self, self has a concrete platform of bias; correct or incorrect the objective is cleanly understood because the six is most underdeveloped with thinking and stands also within the supper ego grouping, a second bias is at work my authority my self detached from a complete, the sum is understood "i am incomplete" six's deeper reasoning i am seperated i am alive. I can think feel experience connect or destroy,... there is divide and life is devoid of correct cohesion, i have reason to sought is a natural progression of thought. yet to be recognised is the full fixed design.


    the numbers four and six are interesting 6 + 4 = 10 and 6 - 4 = 2 Add 10 and two and the sum equals 12 a one and a two as like a hole and a multiplicity of two. its symbolic irony is interesting from an abstract metaphysical properties of numbers perspective. At the achetypal pie level.
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  7. #57
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    It just seems the more detail that is added, the more it may stray from the core.
    .
    Unfortunately that's just a general issue with typology.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Noon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Some points you should bear in mind:
    Painting e4 as an espresso-sipping all-black-like-my-soul drama student is what I'm trying to intellectually subvert. Myself, I just happen to be into poetry; that's consequently going to be the context I'm speaking in.

    Self-hatred is not the right word for it. If Beautiful is shorthand for the entire spectrum of good to right to ideal to sublime, Ugly is shorthand for the opposite. Flawed, imperfect, awkward, [made] wrong, fell short. Different with negative consequences. Those are my words at least. From 4s I've heard anything from "freak" to "monster" (facetiously). The 'proud outcast' came from an extremely conformist environment.

    If it were as simple as self-hatred there'd be no underside of pride. No progression to idealizing the flawed either.

    Marilyn Manson (4w5) inverted 'the culture of beauty' via 'The Beautiful People'. Kazu Makino (4w5) wrote about inside matching outside in 'Elephant Woman'. Franz Kafka (4/5) wrote 'The Metamorphosis'. Warsan Shire (4) has references in her poetry to being something 'terrifying and strange and beautiful'.

    4s can throw themselves into the future too, difference being in its state as a fantasy future as opposed to a desire to know a future coming up based on the present. The reflection on the past isn't immediate. Certain people, events, and times can be mythologized into recurrent themes so that the past is also constantly the present; not like taking time out to look back on last month.

    I wrote a non-SJcentric depiction of E6's defining feature here:

    [Essence 2] is a perpetual state of synthesizing the disparate into the cohesive - to varying levels of success.

    These because the 6 is ultimately aiming to achieve a 9: perception of the biggest picture and total reconciliation therein. That means "needing to see the unseen," which can replicate itself as lesser little anxieties.

    If they resemble a flux of opposites it's because they embody that aspiration with their very selves: they exist as the process of seeking all-pervasive cognizance; a constant seeking for "mini 9s" in terms of personality (phobic/cp), of ideology ("true"/"false"), of psychology (doubt/conviction), of personal ties (allies/threats), and beyond.

    That unconscious preoccupation with opposing principles comes from wanting to see both sides of the coin simultaneously. It differs from the 5's seeking of omniscience by being more about perception than intellect.
    Not gonna quote it in full though cause I don't like how convoluted I made the wording.

    So - I'm biased neither against 6 nor in favor of 4. What I want is to go beyond their surfaces. My reasons for asking about 4 aren't based on romanticism.

  9. #59
    Member anastasiaromanova's Avatar
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    Speaking very loosely, because obviously complicated by issues of tritype, stacking, wing, and movement of the main type in core dynamics, 6s live in fear of f-ing up an idealized hypothetical perfect future if they make a wrong move; 4s live in mourning of an idealized embellished perfect past that they feel they must constantly recreate. Both are thus stuck in a limbo without presence; the quagmire of E4 is past-centered; that of E6 is future-centered. E6--what should I do to prove that I am? E4--who have I been that proves that I am? A triple doubt 4 can seem more doubting than a 6; a 4-fixed sx 6 can seem more melancholic than a 4. But make no mistake: the core issue of E6 is lack of support to step into the future, to act in order to be. Action is not a core issue for E4 because being is introjected. E4 is imploded; E6 is paralyzed. E6 has a running dialogue in its head; E4 has a running movie--an autobiographical one. Either may also have both; the issue is which one is the most essential.
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    And one last thing--when you are dealing with the sp/sx 4, you may find yourself in a somewhat different universe from your garden variety E4 precious rose blooming to wither in fleeting time. There is a lot to be said for sp/sx 4 "counter-melancholy" ime and this is often a very Oneish configuration, even when the gut fix isn't One, so...
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