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Thread: Four vs Six

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    Both 4s and 6s can get depressed for a variety of reasons; 4s tend to be more depressed about who they are (or aren't)--they tend to have some standard of they way they "want" to be, but fall perpertually short of that. There's also a sensitivity towards tragedy, suffering, and loss.

    6s are superego types and perhaps get depressed when they've messed up according to the standards of their superego (I'd appreciate a core 6 filling me in on this one).
    Yeah, same thing. 6 and 4 share the "should" thinking. For 6 a lot of it is gathered from external expectations and echoed in external roles. I feel worse about letting others down than letting myself down. My inner self is not that hard to please... she is more about having fun and enjoying things. My superego sense of what I "should" be is very hard to please and looks at me compared to other people and says I should be doing "better" than I am.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    As to the movies, I know I've seen a database for movies with Type X themes. Here it is; she categorizes each according to the main theme (not necessarily the types of the characters).

    http://www.enneagramdimensions.net/a...emes.pdf#start
    Going by that, I disproportionally like the 5 movies the most, with a couple 7, 4 and 8 themes sprinkled in. One thing that repeats in the type 4 themes is films about artists and the artistic process, which actually make me want to shove pointy things into my eyes and have ever since I was a kid (up to a rare limit: listed 4 movie Amadeus earned its awards). The irritation with stories about storytellers (films about director protagonists, [Author] on the Writing Life, songs about this dude who finds a guitar and changes the world, etc) extends over all mediums, and I can't explain it or defend it as fair. Maybe it comes off as self-romanticizing or -referential, they're airing something I feel is mega private, or maybe an inner preteen is just going "Nooo! It's not like that for me!"

    I strongly prefer people not to see me cry. A big gripe of mine is precisely that 4 descriptions make us out to be these weepy, outwardly emotional things. I'm actually very guarded about that; I think my own family are the only people who've seen me cry, mainly only as a kid and teen.

    I would, like, literally claim there was something in my eye rather than be seen crying at a movie theater, for instance. It doesn't mean I can't be moved internally, it just means I am extremely hesitant to show that to anyone.

    I personally do not like over-emotional people myself. The thing is, I'm ingrown, and my own issues are all I can handle. I'm really not good at being a shoulder to cry on, and I don't like crybabies. So I'd say it's possible.
    My opposite typing experience:

    Descriptions were dead on all around, and I resisted the type for a little while some years ago (typed as 5 instead) because it made me remember things I didn't want to associate with and I wasn't ready to be called out so completely. Especially when I was younger, I have been wet-eyed and emotional and learned over time how to adapt with poise to a variety of situations (zoom to today where I get taken for a 3 sometimes); but have also been more patient with others' emotional spectrums and ready to extend validation. Better shoulder to cry on, at a price too high.

    However, the thing that made me doubt my type later was reading posts from many 4's who seem to flaunt the written theories. I started going, "When I read about the strength of these people in overriding the issues, it brings up memories of times when I didn't keep my cool. I cannot be one of these people." Being an empirical person, I was drawn to trust my findings in the field more than the books and go back to the type drawing board. But when I did, I ignored the commonalities the exact same way with every other type. You probably saw because you helped: the process devolved mostly into exhaustively detailed logs of how I did not fit or live up to each type.

    The problem was selective memory. Not so empirical after all. Letting a few instances where I cried or went home sick from school color an entire life story is not fair and only represents one dimension. When I look at my old journals and stuff I wrote ten years ago, I see exactly why some people wanted to make me react: because I was also so goddamn severe toward them the whole rest of the time, and maybe they felt dismissed.

    I hope that's on topic enough. It's one way to mistype, anyway.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Double post. See below.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    @Sanjuro
    Same reason. It's just that average Six issues will seem more typical and reparable (I can't fit in at school, I'm not cut out to be a lawyer, Im not a good dad, etc.), while Four is always philosophical and ego-gratifying. Sixes have to experience trauma or be in a deep existential crisis to get to that point, and even then, they won't enjoy it or cling to it for the sake of ego. Six depression is boring and numb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    Four depression looks almost forced and self-serving, while Six is utterly burdensome. Depressed Sixes binge eat, purge, become anorexics, sleep all day, stare at ceilings, do lots of prescription drugs, succumb to alcoholism, barely shower, mumble when spoken to..Depressed Fours buy a new wardrobe, write poetry, shun their loved ones, manipulate or deceive people, and slit their wrists on rare occasions. Six goes through biological and physical death, Four goes through a dramatic, operatic death.
    I'm not sure you're being fair to either type here, though. Depression is depression--going through a depressed time is difficult for anyone, and clinical depression often winds up with a combination of any of the above symptoms, regardless of type.

    Speaking only for myself, when I've been "depressed" (I haven't experienced clinical depression--just the downswings associated with 4), it really has been over those silly little issues you mentioned--"I don't fit in", "I'm ugly", "I suck at playing sports" whatever I think I should be. While I've philosophized about life and death to myself, I've seldom (if ever) gone on spirals about "Oh the futility that is existence...I shan't get out of bed today. Oh cursed emotion! Oh terrible night". Like you say, 4s ARE self-indulgent and self-centered, especially about the things that depress them. WE depress us. At least for me.

    I think the most I've ever gotten to expressing my more depressed moments is to say, "Mom...my soul really hurts". (Expression includes art--I haven't tended to channel my feelings into anything productive). The drama may happen in my mind, but for the most part, being depressed and feeling like shit about myself...well, it just feels really bad, and that's not type specific.

    I think the key we're looking for is, What sparks off the depression? (see below)

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Yeah, same thing. 6 and 4 share the "should" thinking. For 6 a lot of it is gathered from external expectations and echoed in external roles. I feel worse about letting others down than letting myself down. My inner self is not that hard to please... she is more about having fun and enjoying things. My superego sense of what I "should" be is very hard to please and looks at me compared to other people and says I should be doing "better" than I am.
    Same thing, different focus. Different reasons behind it.

    I agree, 4s can be quite "super-egoy"--many shoulds and standards (or hopes and dreams) regarding the self. I guess it's an "internal should" (4) versus and "external should" (6).

    Quote Originally Posted by Webslinger View Post
    Going by that, I disproportionally like the 5 movies the most, with a couple 7, 4 and 8 themes sprinkled in. One thing that repeats in the type 4 themes is films about artists and the artistic process, which actually make me want to shove pointy things into my eyes and have ever since I was a kid (up to a rare limit: listed 4 movie Amadeus earned its awards). The irritation with stories about storytellers (films about director protagonists, [Author] on the Writing Life, songs about this dude who finds a guitar and changes the world, etc) extends over all mediums, and I can't explain it or defend it as fair. Maybe it comes off as self-romanticizing or -referential, they're airing something I feel is mega private, or maybe an inner preteen is just going "Nooo! It's not like that for me!"
    I kind of agree, actually. Most of the movies I liked on there are in the 7/8 range. I'm actually not big on the long, depressing dramas myself, and I don't always have patience for other people's "4 themes". It just might be for the reasons you said.
    Last edited by Sanjuro; 09-18-2013 at 07:40 AM. Reason: Forgot to proofread.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webslinger View Post
    Going by that, I disproportionally like the 5 movies the most, with a couple 7, 4 and 8 themes sprinkled in. One thing that repeats in the type 4 themes is films about artists and the artistic process, which actually make me want to shove pointy things into my eyes and have ever since I was a kid (up to a rare limit: listed 4 movie Amadeus earned its awards). The irritation with stories about storytellers (films about director protagonists, [Author] on the Writing Life, songs about this dude who finds a guitar and changes the world, etc) extends over all mediums, and I can't explain it or defend it as fair. Maybe it comes off as self-romanticizing or -referential, they're airing something I feel is mega private, or maybe an inner preteen is just going "Nooo! It's not like that for me!"

    The idea of the list is to show the themes of the subtypes, not to list movies that the types would like. Do you relate to any of the themes of the subtypes for four?

    Melancholia is another movie I'd list under the fours. I'd say it goes along with the theme that fours may experience difficulty with the mundane, but have great resilience in tragedy/ see tragedy as a means to transcend, and how they can use this ability to help others work through something dark or scary . I'm thinking especially of the end of the movie. (Not a theme listed precisely in the four subtypes, but it strikes me as a combination of sx and sp, with maybe a bit of the five influence.)

  6. #36
    Senior Member Cloud of Thunder's Avatar
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    Yes, I loved Melancholia. One of my favorite movies of late.
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  7. #37
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    This will probably be my only post on the subject but if you feel the need to critique I will take note accordingly. Apologies if there is a mix up on my part between the enneagram or their correlative MBTI types.

    1) Fours don't need to try. A four can dress conservatively/plain/formal etc. and appear normal to the world in their appearance and how they come across to an immediate observer. However in the same vein as Godwin's Law (unfalsifiable) a four will inevitably be exposed as odd/strange/weird/unique/eccentric etc. even if they make zero effort to do so. It could take five seconds or five years but the impression that others hold about them will collapse. It's usually as soon as they open their mouths. They're just extra-terrestrial.

    Sixes on the other hand are "relatively normal" and must apply effort to be unique. The benefit of this is that they are less likely to be considered an outsider or suffer ostracisation (basically have their cake and eat it.)

    2) Fours have a better "internal measure" and sixes have a better "external measure". For example, fours know when they are not being themselves. They perceive any inauthenticity in their behaviour and any deviation from an inner identity. However they are sloppy when it comes to determining how normal or different they are being in relation to everybody else. It's easy for them to say "I'm unique!" or "damn, I'm just like everyone else" but these are conclusions derived from crude determinations and neither may be correct simply because there is no true standard (everyone is different etc.)

    Sixes are the opposite, they are good at determining how far from the social norm they are operating. They can measure quite accurately what "socially normal behaviour" is and from that they can utilise the CP system or just be as rebellious as they choose. On the other hand the lack the four's sense of inner identity and have a harder time determining whether they are being themselves or someone else.

  8. #38
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble
    Sixes are the opposite, they are good at determining how far from the social norm they are operating. They can measure quite accurately what "socially normal behaviour" is and from that they can utilise the CP system or just be as rebellious as they choose. On the other hand the lack the four's sense of inner identity and have a harder time determining whether they are being themselves or someone else.
    Yeah that's totally true. I think it even goes beyond determining whether you're being yourself or someone else to the 6 barely, if at all, having a sense of self that doesn't include other people's opinions. My superego sense of my parents' values is so, so deeply wound into my personality. I wouldn't want to extract them even if I could because I love and value my parents and want to preserve and carry forth (some of) their opinions. Of course there are some that I reject, though.

    On the topic of uniqueness, I think it means something much more loaded and valuable to 4s than 6s.

    Personally, I don't feel like I have to apply effort to be unique. I just honestly don't think about being unique. I figure that I am unique because I'm not everyone else and that's that. I do feel a satisfaction from being "special", but it has more to do with my intrinsic value being recognized in the outside world. Something akin to the phrase "coming into one's own". The ability to blossom forth your self-worth and have the universe reflect it back.

    Just because it's an interesting contrast, my 9 says that he wants to be unique - though not strange - because he wants to demonstrate that he is not just a mold and has different things to offer than everyone else does. He says being unique is a good thing.

  9. #39
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    How this relates to me:

    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    This will probably be my only post on the subject but if you feel the need to critique I will take note accordingly. Apologies if there is a mix up on my part between the enneagram or their correlative MBTI types.

    1) Fours don't need to try. A four can dress conservatively/plain/formal etc. and appear normal to the world in their appearance and how they come across to an immediate observer. However in the same vein as Godwin's Law (unfalsifiable) a four will inevitably be exposed as odd/strange/weird/unique/eccentric etc. even if they make zero effort to do so. It could take five seconds or five years but the impression that others hold about them will collapse. It's usually as soon as they open their mouths. They're just extra-terrestrial.

    Sixes on the other hand are "relatively normal" and must apply effort to be unique. The benefit of this is that they are less likely to be considered an outsider or suffer ostracisation (basically have their cake and eat it.)

    2) Fours have a better "internal measure" and sixes have a better "external measure". For example, fours know when they are not being themselves. They perceive any inauthenticity in their behaviour and any deviation from an inner identity. However they are sloppy when it comes to determining how normal or different they are being in relation to everybody else. It's easy for them to say "I'm unique!" or "damn, I'm just like everyone else" but these are conclusions derived from crude determinations and neither may be correct simply because there is no true standard (everyone is different etc.)

    Sixes are the opposite, they are good at determining how far from the social norm they are operating. They can measure quite accurately what "socially normal behaviour" is and from that they can utilise the CP system or just be as rebellious as they choose. On the other hand the lack the four's sense of inner identity and have a harder time determining whether they are being themselves or someone else.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    How this relates to me:
    Interesting. I was more concerned about MBTI/Enneagram blurring in the first point than the second as any N user could find themselves in such a position of being perceived as odd when they communicate abstractly or make intuitive leaps. I was making that point using a more specific conceptual mental image (which I attempted to articulate originally in this post but couldn't) which is more fine tuned. The second point was more integral to the distinction in my view though that too could be construed to be Ji vs Pi in the inner world.

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