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Can type 1 and type 7 have peaceful, happy friendships?

Luv Deluxe

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These types do share a few commonalities (they're both idealistic types, 7 disintegrates to 1 and 1 integrates at 7), but they frequently seem like perfect dramatic foils for each other. Type 1 is usually disciplined, restrained, and responsible, sometimes fulfilling the role of the Serious Leader. Type 7 is typically playful, adventurous, and open, at times meeting the stereotype of the Wild Child. One hell of an odd couple, side by side.

I hate to generalize like that, but this topic is especially interesting to me owing to some trouble I'm having with a friend right now. She's the poster girl for an average 1, and I'm pretty sure that I'm a textbook average 7.

When things are good, our personalities complement each other quite nicely. However, the timeline of this friendship has holes in it throughout - all of which seem inextricably linked to my behavior and her disapproval of it, especially regarding men and sexuality.

On Monday night we tried talking out our problems (I made a mistake last week and was honest in telling her about it), but the conversation only lasted for about five minutes before she flew into full-on rage mode. I could feel her negativity so intensely that my whole body was shaking and for a while there, I honestly thought I was going to throw up. She was full of venom and sarcasm and wasn't at all interested in hearing my version of events, calming down only enough to deliver a thorough critique of my character flaws. She doesn't seem to accept our differences, or at best she feels upset about them, because she seems to view my perspectives as "wrong" as long as they deviate from hers (or imagines that I think she's wrong).

I'll be honest, I feel like a kicked puppy right now. Even if I screwed up, I did the best I could in owning up to that. As much as part of me would like to keep the friendship, the rest of me wants to toss it out the window and move on, because I can't handle that shit. (There's nothing more exhausting than crying hysterically on your friend's couch while she belittles you for three hours.)

So - type 7s, have you had trouble with any of the type 1s in your life? If so, how did you deal with it? Type 1s, same thing - have you experienced difficulty with type 7s and how did you navigate those problems?

Is it possible for these two types to really understand each other? Can that happen in the averages ranges of health? Is my friend actually in an unhealthy zone? Are happy, longstanding friendships/relationships between these two types rare?
 

Lady_X

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i think my ex husband was a 1 but i don't have a whole lot of other experience with that...is negativity like their thing or what? because that drove me crazy since day 10 or so.
 

Luv Deluxe

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[MENTION=5418]Lady X[/MENTION] - did you and your ex-husband just fight all the time then, or what?

As for the negativity...I don't know, but it freaks me out. I'm having a difficult time understanding the type 1 personality right now, even though I initially mistyped myself as one two years ago (when I wasn't feeling at all well - disintegration).
 

pinkgraffiti

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are you asking if my father and i can have a peaceful relationship? no, he gets on my nerves constantly, and i probably do the same. the maximum we can do is cordial distance
 

Southern Kross

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Sorry to barge in, I'm neither a 1 or 7 but I've seen a lot of these friendships, and may have something to contribute... :)

These types do share a few commonalities (they're both idealistic types, 7 disintegrates to 1 and 1 integrates at 7), but they frequently seem like perfect dramatic foils for each other. Type 1 is usually disciplined, restrained, and responsible, sometimes fulfilling the role of the Serious Leader. Type 7 is typically playful, adventurous, and open, at times meeting the stereotype of the Wild Child. One hell of an odd couple, side by side.
Maybe in some cases but they can have similar energy. My sister is a 1w2 and pretty much every close friend she's ever had has been a 7w6. She certainly has a disciplined, orderly side but she also has a silly, fun, party girl side. So I can really see how well these types can co-exist very well. I imagine the difference is that a 1 is more particular about when it's when it's time to let loose and when it's time to knuckle down.

When things are good, our personalities complement each other quite nicely. However, the timeline of this friendship has holes in it throughout - all of which seem inextricably linked to my behavior and her disapproval of it, especially regarding men and sexuality.

On Monday night we tried talking out our problems (I made a mistake last week and was honest in telling her about it), but the conversation only lasted for about five minutes before she flew into full-on rage mode. I could feel her negativity so intensely that my whole body was shaking and for a while there, I honestly thought I was going to throw up. She was full of venom and sarcasm and wasn't at all interested in hearing my version of events, calming down only enough to deliver a thorough critique of my character flaws. She doesn't seem to accept our differences, or at best she feels upset about them, because she seems to view my perspectives as "wrong" as long as they deviate from hers (or imagines that I think she's wrong).

I'll be honest, I feel like a kicked puppy right now. Even if I screwed up, I did the best I could in owning up to that. As much as part of me would like to keep the friendship, the rest of me wants to toss it out the window and move on, because I can't handle that shit. (There's nothing more exhausting than crying hysterically on your friend's couch while she belittles you for three hours.)
I know when my sister gets in that mindset it's when she's built up a lot of frustration over time and it just boils over - she can just unleash about every tiny negative thing that's been on her mind. I wouldn't take it as the literal demonstration of what she's feeling. I think with 1s, when they unleash they say a bunch of things they don't always mean, but once they're in that mode they can't really control it. They can definitely sound much more rigid and harsh than they really are.

Also from what I have heard from my sister (and I often listen to her complaints about her friends), 1s get very frustrated with the 'clumsiness' of 7s. It's like to them, 7s sometimes seem like they're naively dawdling through life, making stupid decisions that are damaging to themselves and others, over and over again. This can be really upsetting for the 1s, in a way that can even be likened to offending to their sensibilities. They hate to see 7s make these bad decisions, especially when it they end up hurting themselves without realising that they are doing it. My sister loves her friends through all their faults, but often she wants to shake them and snap them out of it. Her anger at them is often just concern and frustration at not being able to help them be happy and healthy in life. I don't know, maybe I should call on my favourite 1w2 around here to verify this: do you agree [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION]?

This is not to say your friend was right to brow beat you and criticise your character so entirely. I think you really should tell her that you were very hurt by the way she spoke to you. Now that she's calmed down, you might be able to talk the whole situation through and sort it out (and get her to apologise!). Whatever you do, don't just drift away and not talk about it, as 7s are wont to do ;). I don't mean to offend you, but it worries me to see how 7s will walk away and don't seek understanding of the factors in conflict/problem - it means they never get closure or learn something from it (even if it's that they shouldn't let people treat them like that). And the 1s I know would much rather have everything out in the open, even if it means you end up going your separate ways.

Is it possible for these two types to really understand each other? Can that happen in the averages ranges of health? Is my friend actually in an unhealthy zone? Are happy, longstanding friendships/relationships between these two types rare?
I'd like to think it is totally possible for them to forge very happy friendships. I've seen first hand how great they can be together. :)

I will say, from the 1 perspective, my sister has these intense close friendships with 7s for a 2-3 years and then they eventually let her down. She can certainly be difficult too but it worries me to see how many of these really, lovely girls (I've know many of them well) end up causing a rift with her based on their fickleness, or because they effectively abandon her over some guy they become infatuated with. In the end, from her perspective, it's like they just eventually drive her away. Maybe for the 7s involved, they just got tired off her irritability, and those occasional critical and overbearing remarks. :shrug:

But I believe that a lot of this is just down to some damaged/immature individuals, and that with healthy versions of both types the friendship can be more long lasting.
 

Starry

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When things are good, our personalities complement each other quite nicely. However, the timeline of this friendship has holes in it throughout - all of which seem inextricably linked to my behavior and her disapproval of it...

OMG totally!!!

…especially regarding men and sexuality.

Okay well maybe not totally totally ('semi-totally' I guess is where we're at here.)

One of my sisters is an IxTJ e1w9. Our entire family calls her Principessa (princess). Our entire family is also resolved to the fact that whenever she is around...all of us, individually and as a group, will have undoubtedly done a whole bunch shit wrong haha.

Here are some basic rules I live by when it comes to Principessa:

1.) If we hang out... she comes to my place...I do not go to hers as I might accidentally touch something I'm not supposed to touch...or maybe I won't magically know some magical rule.
2.) If we go somewhere...I drive. If we go somewhere...she decides on where.
3.) If we split the bill I always pay just a little bit more.
4.) I (this is a critical one) NEVER ask her to do me any favors. And if she does surprise me with some gift or gesture...I promptly pay her back in kind.

^^those few things have gone a long way in keeping our relationship...good haha.

Your friend is an extrovert though? Maybe a 1w2? I couldn't even imagine my sister yelling at me for 3hrs. What we generally get are eye rolls...and then she will get quiet as she starts to fill the entire room with totally bad energy... then she'll make some lame excuse for why she 'has to leave'...then she doesn't talk to you for several days... And then a few weeks later you'll find out that you didn't say 'thank you' for something...or interrupted her...or some other obvious crime of that nature.

I don't quite understand what it was that you did that caused your friend to go off on you... Interestingly though, I have heard/read that e1s often demonstrate more compassion for larger transgressions than they do the 'everyday' stuff... (stuff that many of us would look past if it even occurred to us it was something to look past in the first place.) And while I don't know how true that is...it does seem to be true where my sister is concerned.

If I have done something to my sister that truly warrants an apology and I go about making amends...she is usually responsive and good-natured about it. If I have done something that has no effect on her existence...but she still feels the need to provide me with her commentary (which with her is merely a single brief message of 'I would never do something so stupid seeing how I'm perfect and all...') kindly reminding her that we are two different people with two different Life journeys usually does the trick.

She's by no means easy to get along with...but as my sister and an individual that is amazingly funny when she's in the right mood...it is worth it to me to work around the challenges.

And it may also help to remain mindful of the fact that no matter how critical an e1 may seem towards you...it's nothing compared to how critical they are on themselves.
 

Lady_X

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[MENTION=5418]Lady X[/MENTION] - did you and your ex-husband just fight all the time then, or what?

As for the negativity...I don't know, but it freaks me out. I'm having a difficult time understanding the type 1 personality right now, even though I initially mistyped myself as one two years ago (when I wasn't feeling at all well - disintegration).

hey...no we didn't. we got along really well for a long time....until all the separateness needed for us to get along just made us too separate feeling.

but...it was better if we just didn't need to agree on stuff. we had separate bathrooms and bank accounts for a long time. that helped. haha
 

Luv Deluxe

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Maybe in some cases but they can have similar energy. My sister is a 1w2 and pretty much every close friend she's ever had has been a 7w6. She certainly has a disciplined, orderly side but she also has a silly, fun, party girl side. So I can really see how well these types can co-exist very well. I imagine the difference is that a 1 is more particular about when it's when it's time to let loose and when it's time to knuckle down.

Yes! This is usually when we best get along - those moments when she lets go and allows herself to enjoy an experience without analyzing whether each detail is acceptable to her code of ethics. It's still hard sometimes. Frequently when we're out and about, she can't resist issuing commentary on the people around us, judging them and often unfairly so. She does have an adventurous side, but she seems to need me to unlock it for her.

Southern Kross said:
I know when my sister gets in that mindset it's when she's built up a lot of frustration over time and it just boils over - she can just unleash about every tiny negative thing that's been on her mind. I wouldn't take it as the literal demonstration of what she's feeling. I think with 1s, when they unleash they say a bunch of things they don't always mean, but once they're in that mode they can't really control it. They can definitely sound much more rigid and harsh than they really are.

Also from what I have heard from my sister (and I often listen to her complaints about her friends), 1s get very frustrated with the 'clumsiness' of 7s. It's like to them, 7s sometimes seem like they're naively dawdling through life, making stupid decisions that are damaging to themselves and others, over and over again. This can be really upsetting for the 1s, in a way that can even be likened to offending to their sensibilities. They hate to see 7s make these bad decisions, especially when it they end up hurting themselves without realising that they are doing it. My sister loves her friends through all their faults, but often she wants to shake them and snap them out of it. Her anger at them is often just concern and frustration at not being able to help them be happy and healthy in life. I don't know, maybe I should call on my favourite 1w2 around here to verify this: do you agree [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION]?

I might seem like a high-functioning 7. My job is one that I love and work hard at; it's also part of a career track (one that I actively pursued) and it's often got a lot of responsibility attached. (I know we're not all exactly alike, but it's a little hard for me to imagine a balls-to-the-wall 7 dawdling through life!) Naturally, the overachieving part of my personality isn't one my friend has issue with at all. In fact, she seems very proud of me regarding my work. Nine times out of ten, she's the one who brings it up to other people.

The areas of my personality that she does seem to feel no end of irritation with are those regarding sex, impulsivity, addiction on any level (even if it's only caffeine!)...and my whole overall demeanor, I guess. I didn't think it was this bad until Monday night, when it all came out via that aforementioned fiery exchange. She complained that my energy is too "intense" and "too forward," declaring that even if I've been selective when it comes to actually sleeping with guys, everybody thinks I'm a whore anyway and it's my own damn fault. She believes that my behaviors warrant criticism and correction, particularly in the sex department. The thing that honestly baffles me, though, is the fact that my sex life is...well, mine, and I'm far from promiscuous. The event that catalyzed all of this (the mistake that I've made) does indeed involve her - and that's fair - but otherwise throughout our entire friendship there has been a pervasive attitude of extreme dislike toward my sexuality, which she has always periodically vocalized. I don't know, nitpicking my choices/natural state of existence seems kinda mean, particularly when she is unaffected.

After considering this and reading about your sister...could this maybe be a way that type 1s express their love? If so, it seems almost like a parent-child relationship, as if the 1 is saying, "Oh, this girl will never learn! How many times do I have to clean up her messes for her?" There's an air of condescension there, but only because the 1 cares about the 7 and believes that showing them the "right" way will be good for the 7 in the long run. Hmm. The trouble is, "right" and "wrong" tend to ignore that fairly large grey area of subjectivity.

Southern Kross said:
This is not to say your friend was right to brow beat you and criticise your character so entirely. I think you really should tell her that you were very hurt by the way she spoke to you. Now that she's calmed down, you might be able to talk the whole situation through and sort it out (and get her to apologise!). Whatever you do, don't just drift away and not talk about it, as 7s are wont to do ;). I don't mean to offend you, but it worries me to see how 7s will walk away and don't seek understanding of the factors in conflict/problem - it means they never get closure or learn something from it (even if it's that they shouldn't let people treat them like that). And the 1s I know would much rather have everything out in the open, even if it means you end up going your separate ways.

You're very right about my compulsion to run for the hills. I would like to think that she'd be open to talk with me again sometime, but I don't want to deal with another meltdown. Although, sadly, it sort of feels to me as though she's already aired every bit of discontent she could think of. I know that she doesn't hate me, that deep down a big piece of this is the result of her projecting her self-hatred onto others (1s are so critical of themselves, and this poor thing is emotionally bleeding from excessive castigation), but I'm hoping that it isn't so heavy and terrible that she's going to choose the termination of our communication.

Southern Kross said:
I'd like to think it is totally possible for them to forge very happy friendships. I've seen first hand how great they can be together. :)

I will say, from the 1 perspective, my sister has these intense close friendships with 7s for a 2-3 years and then they eventually let her down. She can certainly be difficult too but it worries me to see how many of these really, lovely girls (I've know many of them well) end up causing a rift with her based on their fickleness, or because they effectively abandon her over some guy they become infatuated with. In the end, from her perspective, it's like they just eventually drive her away. Maybe for the 7s involved, they just got tired off her irritability, and those occasional critical and overbearing remarks. :shrug:

But I believe that a lot of this is just down to some damaged/immature individuals, and that with healthy versions of both types the friendship can be more long lasting.

Your sister sounds like a pretty well-balanced 1, for the most part, and it seems like her 7 companions were a bit on the flighty and immature end of the spectrum. I think if I were your sister, those girls would have tried my patience too!

Maybe that's what it takes to make it work - a healthy 1 and a healthy 7, meeting somewhere in the middle, two complementary halves of an awesome friendship. (Without growth and maturity, perhaps they'd just consistently get on each other's nerves.)

Thanks very much for your insight, I do appreciate it. :)
 

Southern Kross

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Yes! This is usually when we best get along - those moments when she lets go and allows herself to enjoy an experience without analyzing whether each detail is acceptable to her code of ethics. It's still hard sometimes. Frequently when we're out and about, she can't resist issuing commentary on the people around us, judging them and often unfairly so. She does have an adventurous side, but she seems to need me to unlock it for her.
Yeah, I'm not sure how to better unlock that side of them. My sister has always been a bit of a rebel so she wasn't as strict on adhering to 'appropriate behaviour' (I know this doesn't sound very 1-like but trust me she is). I think they have to learn that everyone's 'faults' (real or otherwise) aren't their problem, and once they know they don't have to fix everything, they can relax more.

I might seem like a high-functioning 7. My job is one that I love and work hard at; it's also part of a career track (one that I actively pursued) and it's often got a lot of responsibility attached. (I know we're not all exactly alike, but it's a little hard for me to imagine a balls-to-the-wall 7 dawdling through life!) Naturally, the overachieving part of my personality isn't one my friend has issue with at all. In fact, she seems very proud of me regarding my work. Nine times out of ten, she's the one who brings it up to other people.

The areas of my personality that she does seem to feel no end of irritation with are those regarding sex, impulsivity, addiction on any level (even if it's only caffeine!)...and my whole overall demeanor, I guess. I didn't think it was this bad until Monday night, when it all came out via that aforementioned fiery exchange. She complained that my energy is too "intense" and "too forward," declaring that even if I've been selective when it comes to actually sleeping with guys, everybody thinks I'm a whore anyway and it's my own damn fault. She believes that my behaviors warrant criticism and correction, particularly in the sex department. The thing that honestly baffles me, though, is the fact that my sex life is...well, mine, and I'm far from promiscuous. The event that catalyzed all of this (the mistake that I've made) does indeed involve her - and that's fair - but otherwise throughout our entire friendship there has been a pervasive attitude of extreme dislike toward my sexuality, which she has always periodically vocalized. I don't know, nitpicking my choices/natural state of existence seems kinda mean, particularly when she is unaffected.
Hmm, this makes me wonder about your friend's instinct stacking.

There can be a bit of that with 1s: judging sexual/relationship choices (personally, I don't care much for that 'slut shaming'). OTOH I do understand the criticism can be more meaningful than that. With some of the 7s I've known, their decision making (sometimes in regards to sex) can be easily clouded by personal issues they're trying to counteract. 7s can rush in without seeing the negative patterns their behaviour results in and how their underlying problems drive them to it. The personal issues are not type related, but there can be an obliviousness about them that needs drawing attention to, and 1s can be a lot more observant about these things. I don't know if this is what your friend was trying to get at (clearly, in a less than constructive way) or whether it was just plain judgementalism. Personally, I've know several people that are more free with their bodies without it being problematic at all in the long term, IMO.

Another thing to remember is that 1s like to talk about improving other people/situations that aren't directly their business: 1w9s are the philosophers and like to reform society in their minds, whereas 1w2s are more like the activists in the trenches. In other words, they like to make other people's problems their own. Perhaps you could get across to your friend that you appreciate her help, but that your successes and failures are your own, and that you're happy living with those consequences. If she can see that you're ultimately happy and OK with things, maybe she wouldn't feel such a need to 'fix' you (ie. because there's nothing to fix).

After considering this and reading about your sister...could this maybe be a way that type 1s express their love? If so, it seems almost like a parent-child relationship, as if the 1 is saying, "Oh, this girl will never learn! How many times do I have to clean up her messes for her?" There's an air of condescension there, but only because the 1 cares about the 7 and believes that showing them the "right" way will be good for the 7 in the long run. Hmm. The trouble is, "right" and "wrong" tend to ignore that fairly large grey area of subjectivity.
Yes, this is what I was thinking after discussing this too. But it can go both ways and I don't think it's always a negative relationship. 1s are naturally paternalistic and 7s have Peter Pan syndrome. Having each other around can help balance each other out: 7s get something out of the groundedness and guidance from 1s, and in return, the 1s get someone to reform, as well as encouragement to let loose and connect to their inner passions.

You're very right about my compulsion to run for the hills. I would like to think that she'd be open to talk with me again sometime, but I don't want to deal with another meltdown. Although, sadly, it sort of feels to me as though she's already aired every bit of discontent she could think of. I know that she doesn't hate me, that deep down a big piece of this is the result of her projecting her self-hatred onto others (1s are so critical of themselves, and this poor thing is emotionally bleeding from excessive castigation), but I'm hoping that it isn't so heavy and terrible that she's going to choose the termination of our communication.
Oh, if she started up again I think you would be well within your rights to tell her to shut her mouth and listen. You listened to her browbeating so it's only right you should have you say. I do understand your unwillingness to approach her after all that - I would be too.

Your sister sounds like a pretty well-balanced 1, for the most part, and it seems like her 7 companions were a bit on the flighty and immature end of the spectrum. I think if I were your sister, those girls would have tried my patience too!

Maybe that's what it takes to make it work - a healthy 1 and a healthy 7, meeting somewhere in the middle, two complementary halves of an awesome friendship. (Without growth and maturity, perhaps they'd just consistently get on each other's nerves.)
It might sound that way but like I said they're such great girls and I felt like those splits didn't have to happen. I really wished those friendships had worked out because they were so happy together. :(

I really think the two types could work together, if like you say, they can meet in the middle.

Thanks very much for your insight, I do appreciate it.
I glad it's valuable. I didn't want to get in the middle with a bunch of useless information (that might have sounded critical or negative). :unsure:
 

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So you slept with her ex boyfriend?
 
A

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I think it's difficult to ascertain which aspect of your relationship is the problem unless the actual specific problems are brought out.

All I see is a bunch of vague hintings at what occurred and personally flavored bias over the events that took place.

I think it's common sense that a random heathy x type can theoretically get along with a random y type. And I think two people who have issues of their own are going to naturally have issues with each other at some point.

Distilling this down to enneagram types seems like a distraction from reality.
 

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Your friend is an extrovert though? Maybe a 1w2? I couldn't even imagine my sister yelling at me for 3hrs. What we generally get are eye rolls...and then she will get quiet as she starts to fill the entire room with totally bad energy... then she'll make some lame excuse for why she 'has to leave'...then she doesn't talk to you for several days... And then a few weeks later you'll find out that you didn't say 'thank you' for something...or interrupted her...or some other obvious crime of that nature.

She's an ISFJ, and yes, most likely a 1w2. Normally that is what you'd get from her - eye rolls and a general air of dissatisfaction - but she definitely lost her cool the other day and it was terrifying. I guess lots of those everyday, little things bother her all the time, but she tries to hide her discontent as much as possible until it all comes bubbling over.

Starry said:
I don't quite understand what it was that you did that caused your friend to go off on you... Interestingly though, I have heard/read that e1s often demonstrate more compassion for larger transgressions than they do the 'everyday' stuff... (stuff that many of us would look past if it even occurred to us it was something to look past in the first place.) And while I don't know how true that is...it does seem to be true where my sister is concerned.

I'll try to stick to brevity, but here's how it all went down:

My friend is single, I'm single, and so is a guy we met one night about two months ago. My friend rapidly developed a crush on the guy, although she would openly admit to a sort of contempt for his casual lifestyle. It was a lot of cognitive dissonance for her to deal with ("We would never work together!"), but she was physically attracted to him and she can't separate her emotions from that, so it became a proper crush. To me, he was just sort of there, a friend we would sometimes hang out with.

Well, the weeks went by and on several occasions my friend hung out with him alone, kind of hoping that some sparks would fly. They never did. She started flirting with other dudes, and then about two weeks ago met somebody at a wedding reception and started going on dates with him. She seemed very excited about this guy, and last I heard, things were going pretty well for them.

One night last week, the original guy asked me to grab drinks with him, and I did, thinking nothing of it. It was the first time we'd hung out without her, and I was quite intoxicated by evening's end. We decided that I'd crash at his house (my home is much farther away - a cab would have been ridiculously expensive - and I was in no shape to drive). Well, he's got a housemate and it was mostly for this reason that I ended up staying in his room with him (plus, I've shared beds with friends before when too drunk to drive, and it's always been okay). Some cuddling ensued at his initiation, but that's pretty much the extent of it (I put the brakes on before it started going there).

Well, I knew that my friend probably still had some leftover feelings for this guy even if it wasn't in the cards and even if she was seeing somebody else, so I guess I felt like my screw-up came in the form of not shrugging him off. It was all circumstance, nothing premeditated, but I knew that it could still inspire feelings of jealousy and hurt, so I felt really bad and told her what had happened immediately. I've been in the doghouse ever since.

I did make a mistake, and I have blamed myself for it, beaten myself up over it, and felt pretty guilty about it...so I won't be too terribly surprised if several people here decide to say, "Well, you deserved what you got." I'm definitely still dealing with that.

Starry said:
If I have done something to my sister that truly warrants an apology and I go about making amends...she is usually responsive and good-natured about it. If I have done something that has no effect on her existence...but she still feels the need to provide me with her commentary (which with her is merely a single brief message of 'I would never do something so stupid seeing how I'm perfect and all...') kindly reminding her that we are two different people with two different Life journeys usually does the trick.

She's by no means easy to get along with...but as my sister and an individual that is amazingly funny when she's in the right mood...it is worth it to me to work around the challenges.

And it may also help to remain mindful of the fact that no matter how critical an e1 may seem towards you...it's nothing compared to how critical they are on themselves.

Navigating this one might be tricky, since I've tried apologizing to her several times and right now she's not having it. My best bet is to give it time. However, your point about 1s being hardest on themselves of all is what has me very worried; the more time that slides by between this fight and the present moment, I find myself increasingly concerned for her own well-being. The girl started going off on tangents that were completely unrelated to me and our situation, at one point calling her employers "evil." This is what has me feeling that my friend is actually quite unhappy with herself and her life, that what I did was essentially the straw that broke the camel's back.

Naturally, in the big scheme of things, I want to keep the friendship. I want my friend to see that it's okay to have two different life journeys, as you say, but I feel that I can't reach her from my current standing because I'm one of the sources of her pain. (I owed her the apologies that I've given her, I'm not disputing that.) Has there ever been a time when your sister didn't want to recognize that you were genuinely sorry for something?

So you slept with her ex boyfriend?

Not at all.

I think it's difficult to ascertain which aspect of your relationship is the problem unless the actual specific problems are brought out.

All I see is a bunch of vague hintings at what occurred and personally flavored bias over the events that took place.

Naturally, and you're very wise to take that into consideration.

I described the situation in my reply to Starry; it's a bit long, but it's there.

Saturned said:
I think it's common sense that a random heathy x type can theoretically get along with a random y type. And I think two people who have issues of their own are going to naturally have issues with each other at some point.

Distilling this down to enneagram types seems like a distraction from reality.

Agreed. I was wondering about the various experiences people have had with these types, however, because every so often it's nice to hear fresh perspectives. Talking about it anonymously is also cathartic, and we are on a typology forum...if I want to explore this thing from within the microcosm of psychological theory, why not kick around some ideas here?

This angle isn't the only one I'm taking; far from it. I view this as a real-life problem between two people, not a simplistic issue solely linked to Enneagram types. It's vast and complex and much deeper than anything that could be solved here, but it still felt like an interesting topic since my friend and I have both been acting like mid-level or unhealthy versions of those personality types. I see your point, but no worries. It's just food for thought, that's all.

In the end, I'm going to go with my gut and approach what I feel is best for the big picture, but I'm very much enjoying reading everyone's contributions - thanks, guys. :)
 

Lady_X

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eh...i don't know...seems like such a non issue to me. i wouldn't have cared. i think she should get over herself.
 

EJCC

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After reading the backstory: I don't think "you deserved what you got", nor do I think that what she was doing was appropriate or excusable -- and at the same time, I think she had legitimate reason to be upset.

I find it kind of funny that you chose this example, which is so obviously colored by personal issues and relationship drama, to ask huge generalized questions about whether these two types can EVER be peaceful and happy together -- when, IMO, it's obvious that like [MENTION=13402]Saturned[/MENTION] said, any two types can be happy together, and type doesn't predict compatibility that well. Did you take a while to process the non-type-relatedness of your situation, or were you trying to find a typology-related excuse to vent, or what?

^ I don't mean for that to come across as harsh, so don't take it personally. I'm just confused, is all.

I imagine the difference is that a 1 is more particular about when it's when it's time to let loose and when it's time to knuckle down.
Yeah. Generally speaking, 1 = more focused and better at quickly and systematically Getting Shit Done -- especially SJ 1s, like me and like the ISFJ in question.
I know when my sister gets in that mindset it's when she's built up a lot of frustration over time and it just boils over - she can just unleash about every tiny negative thing that's been on her mind. I wouldn't take it as the literal demonstration of what she's feeling. I think with 1s, when they unleash they say a bunch of things they don't always mean, but once they're in that mode they can't really control it. They can definitely sound much more rigid and harsh than they really are.
I might actually disagree, a bit, on this point? Or at least, IME, it's more complicated.

Type 1 carries these judgments around constantly. The vast majority of the time, those judgments don't make us angry. They just sit there. The minority of the time, those judgments might make us angry, and if we lash out, we'll exclaim the judgments at others. After the fact, we'll feel horrible, but it won't be because we didn't mean it -- it'll be because we never should have said those judgments, and the judgments usually aren't that huge a deal.

A personal example: I have a few friends who flake out on things regularly. That isn't something I like, but usually I accept it, and schedule around it, assuming that they either won't show, or will be late. But this past fall, one of those friends totally took me aback by completely standing me up, choosing to eat by herself because she "needed to recharge" and without having the courtesy to tell me. I lashed out at her via text -- something along the lines of "I wish you'd have the courtesy of letting me know the next time you're going to ignore the plans we make" -- and then almost immediately apologized for lashing out at her, saying we could reschedule for some other time. Now, eight or so months later: I still think she's a flake, I still think it's ridiculous that she finds that behavior acceptable, but I regret how rudely I acted, and wished I could have made the conversation more constructive.
Also from what I have heard from my sister (and I often listen to her complaints about her friends), 1s get very frustrated with the 'clumsiness' of 7s. It's like to them, 7s sometimes seem like they're naively dawdling through life, making stupid decisions that are damaging to themselves and others, over and over again. This can be really upsetting for the 1s, in a way that can even be likened to offending to their sensibilities. They hate to see 7s make these bad decisions, especially when it they end up hurting themselves without realising that they are doing it. My sister loves her friends through all their faults, but often she wants to shake them and snap them out of it. Her anger at them is often just concern and frustration at not being able to help them be happy and healthy in life. I don't know, maybe I should call on my favourite 1w2 around here to verify this: do you agree [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION]?
I have a friend who's an ENFP and I think tritype 378 -- strong 7 fix -- and the fact that I've been friends with her for so long, has trained me pretty well to deal with people who make their life decisions this way. I think it's also taught me that life is never as predictable and linear as a 1w2 would like to believe.

I do disapprove of some decisions she's made. For example: she doesn't want to go to college, and while that isn't something that I disapprove of in itself -- plenty of people do well without undergrad degrees -- I think that
1) Everything she could possibly want to do career-wise would benefit from college; and
2) Her reasons for not going ("I'm not meant for college") are almost definitely based on fear of college, fear of failure, and fear of boredom, but she's in denial about it.

I've told her how I feel, once or maybe twice. She knows my opinion, and will go off and do whatever she wants; she's a free spirit. In the meantime... There's a lot of wisdom in the Serenity Prayer, regardless of whether or not you're religious. When there's nothing I can do to stop her, there's no point in keeping on fighting to change her mind. It's a waste of energy.

I think that any 1 who has a big group of friends who disagree with them on key issues, has learned to accept this same philosophy. We do have an internalized "right" and "wrong" way of going about things, but at the same time, surrounding yourself with only people who agree with you becomes a bit cultish, and no one would be there to correct you if you did end up being wrong.

/tangent
This is not to say your friend was right to brow beat you and criticise your character so entirely. I think you really should tell her that you were very hurt by the way she spoke to you. Now that she's calmed down, you might be able to talk the whole situation through and sort it out (and get her to apologise!). Whatever you do, don't just drift away and not talk about it, as 7s are wont to do ;). I don't mean to offend you, but it worries me to see how 7s will walk away and don't seek understanding of the factors in conflict/problem - it means they never get closure or learn something from it (even if it's that they shouldn't let people treat them like that). And the 1s I know would much rather have everything out in the open, even if it means you end up going your separate ways.
^ I 100% agree on this.
I will say, from the 1 perspective, my sister has these intense close friendships with 7s for a 2-3 years and then they eventually let her down. She can certainly be difficult too but it worries me to see how many of these really, lovely girls (I've know many of them well) end up causing a rift with her based on their fickleness, or because they effectively abandon her over some guy they become infatuated with. In the end, from her perspective, it's like they just eventually drive her away. Maybe for the 7s involved, they just got tired off her irritability, and those occasional critical and overbearing remarks. :shrug:
This is really sad. Your sister is ESTJ, right? Which would mean that from both Enneagram and MBTI, she's extremely dedicated and doesn't have a hard time being loyal to friends. She's giving what she perceives to be an essential and not all that difficult thing -- commitment -- and not getting it at all in return.

:(
(I know we're not all exactly alike, but it's a little hard for me to imagine a balls-to-the-wall 7 dawdling through life!)
To be fair: it's less dawdling through life, and more charging through life in completely random and possibly hedonistic directions. (Which is fine, but it takes a bit of a mindset adjustment for a 1 to understand!)
The thing that honestly baffles me, though, is the fact that my sex life is...well, mine, and I'm far from promiscuous. The event that catalyzed all of this (the mistake that I've made) does indeed involve her - and that's fair - but otherwise throughout our entire friendship there has been a pervasive attitude of extreme dislike toward my sexuality, which she has always periodically vocalized. I don't know, nitpicking my choices/natural state of existence seems kinda mean, particularly when she is unaffected.
1w2 wants to be helpful; they want to provide for people, they want to solve problems. If someone close to them is doing something they find objectionable, it IS their business, because it's their duty as a friend to help their friends when they need help. (See my ENFP example, earlier in the post.) If you were doing your math homework, your dad was a math professor, you were struggling to get it done, and your dad offered to help, would you be confused as to why he thought it was "his business"? It's not about business, it's about this process: They need help, I'm qualified to help them, I care about them, thus it is my duty to step in.

In fairness, I think your friend should let up. But if she's an average level 1, she may not be that great at picking her battles yet.
After considering this and reading about your sister...could this maybe be a way that type 1s express their love? If so, it seems almost like a parent-child relationship, as if the 1 is saying, "Oh, this girl will never learn! How many times do I have to clean up her messes for her?" There's an air of condescension there, but only because the 1 cares about the 7 and believes that showing them the "right" way will be good for the 7 in the long run. Hmm. The trouble is, "right" and "wrong" tend to ignore that fairly large grey area of subjectivity.
It is ABSOLUTELY a way of expressing love. (See my above quote.) I guess it's a little condescending? -- but I'd prefer the big sister-little sister metaphor. Parent-child assumes that the child is never really supposed to do anything in return. Big sister-little sister assumes that they're still technically peers, and they're still best friends forever. Confidantes. But the big sister has a duty to help and protect the younger one.
You're very right about my compulsion to run for the hills. I would like to think that she'd be open to talk with me again sometime, but I don't want to deal with another meltdown. Although, sadly, it sort of feels to me as though she's already aired every bit of discontent she could think of. I know that she doesn't hate me, that deep down a big piece of this is the result of her projecting her self-hatred onto others (1s are so critical of themselves, and this poor thing is emotionally bleeding from excessive castigation), but I'm hoping that it isn't so heavy and terrible that she's going to choose the termination of our communication.
It's tough because I'm not sure what the Fe 1w2 attitude would be, here. As a Te 1w2, I'd prefer to have a conversation about it, to talk about it once my emotions had calmed down -- I can guarantee that she's not going to flip out on you a second time to the same extent that she did before, though I understand why you'd be afraid of that possibility. But I don't "get" ISFJs, as much as I "get" my own type.

Maybe that's what it takes to make it work - a healthy 1 and a healthy 7, meeting somewhere in the middle, two complementary halves of an awesome friendship. (Without growth and maturity, perhaps they'd just consistently get on each other's nerves.)
Or a different type of average 1 and a different type of average 7. It depends too much on individual factors. (Once again, I agree with Saturned)
 

Starry

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Antihero... I keep getting interrupted and will return later in order to respond some more but thought I would at least post the little I did get typed-out now.

I did make a mistake, and I have blamed myself for it, beaten myself up over it, and felt pretty guilty about it...so I won't be too terribly surprised if several people here decide to say, "Well, you deserved what you got." I'm definitely still dealing with that.

I'll be honest, I'm currently in a state of confusion right now. I mean, everyday I'll experience all kinds of things that fuel my ongoing awareness of just how different I am from 'everybody else' and you know, I've come to terms with it haha. I know it's going to happen. But every once and a while I'll stumble across something like this and I'll be left somewhat stunned wondering if I even heard correctly/understood properly... And from what I've already implied it takes a lot for me to question things of this nature...

So, help me out here... You are single...and spent one drunken evening cuddling with a guy friend that is also single. But your ISFJ e1 female friend that A.) has no romantic history or apparent prospective future with this mutual guy friend And B.) is currently in some kind of committed relationship with another guy... totally loses it and yells at you for 3hrs...and not only does this make sense to you in someway...you've 'beaten yourself up for it'...and anticipate a possible thrashing from others here as well?

^^the way I see it is if most people feel your friend is in the right ...then it's time now for the 'Fi Mothership' or the 'ENFP Stardust' or whatever craft stranded me here to return for me and take me back home.

Like, this is so far from my grasp I can't even imagine what she said to you and if you were willing to share I'd be so interested in hearing it.
 

Lady_X

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Antihero... I keep getting interrupted and will return later in order to respond some more but thought I would at least post the little I did get typed-out now.



I'll be honest, I'm currently in a state of confusion right now. I mean, everyday I'll experience all kinds of things that fuel my ongoing awareness of just how different I am from 'everybody else' and you know, I've come to terms with it haha. I know it's going to happen. But every once and a while I'll stumble across something like this and I'll be left somewhat stunned wondering if I even heard correctly/understood properly... And from what I've already implied it takes a lot for me to question things of this nature...

So, help me out here... You are single...and spent one drunken evening cuddling with a guy friend that is also single. But your ISFJ e1 female friend that A.) has no romantic history or apparent prospective future with this mutual guy friend And B.) is currently in some kind of committed relationship with another guy... totally loses it and yells at you for 3hrs...and not only does this make sense to you in someway...you've 'beaten yourself up for it'...and anticipate a possible thrashing from others here as well?

^^the way I see it is if most people feel your friend is in the right ...then it's time now for the 'Fi Mothership' or the 'ENFP Stardust' or whatever craft stranded me here to return for me and take me back home.

Like, this is so far from my grasp I can't even imagine what she said to you and if you were willing to share I'd been so interested in hearing it.

that's where i'm at with it too...just imagining myself as the isfj in this scenario...i'd be like....ooooh cuddling eh?? do you like him?? aww you guys could be cool together!! etc...i mean...i never dated the guy...am dating someone else...i obviously saw something about the guy at some point so i must think he's good enough for my friend.

i don't get these rules either miss [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] not that i expect you'll find that surprising.
 

EJCC

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^ It's not that she was in the right ("she"= the ISFJ). In fact, she reacted completely inappropriately. (Was it actually 3 hours? Were you exaggerating?) It's more a matter of: She had a lot of shit going on, and everything built up to her overreacting to this. If I'm interpreting/summing this up correctly, the point is that sometimes a 1 will lash out about something relatively small and unimportant if they've had stressors accumulate over time.

All I was saying, was that I could see how she would react that way, considering the information provided on the thread thus far.
 

Starry

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^ It's not that she was in the right ("she"= the ISFJ). In fact, she reacted completely inappropriately. (Was it actually 3 hours? Were you exaggerating?) It's more a matter of: She had a lot of shit going on, and everything built up to her overreacting to this. If I'm interpreting/summing this up correctly, the point is that sometimes a 1 will lash out about something relatively small and unimportant if they've had stressors accumulate over time.

All I was saying, was that I could see how she would react that way, considering the information provided on the thread thus far.

Omgosh EJCC... I am not even kidding you. I had just sat down and was reading where you wrote "...I think she had a legitimate reason to be upset" and was getting ready to mention you in order to understand your thoughts here.

There's always a sense of doubt in these kinds of threads because we only ever get one-side of the story and then there are all kinds of outstanding considerations like...differing perspectives/pov, blind-spots, memory/forgetfulness, etc. But if we take the story that is presented here as if it is a relatively truthful presentation of what occurred...are you saying that while the ISFJ should not have reacted in such an aggressive manner...she had a good reason to be upset because her friend cuddled with a guy she had had interest in? (I apologize if I'm completely missing something here.)
 

Southern Kross

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After reading the backstory: I don't think "you deserved what you got", nor do I think that what she was doing was appropriate or excusable -- and at the same time, I think she had legitimate reason to be upset.
Yeah, I wouldn't say the blame was one-sided at all. If what [MENTION=13973]AntiheroComplex[/MENTION] said is an accurate depiction of events I'm inclined to side with her. But then I don't entirely get the social standard that men can be implicitly 'bagsed' by a woman, even if there is nothing between them: past or present (or future, by all indications). I mean she basically relinquished interest in him, and AC actually turned the guy down - what more do you want? I could understand the friend being annoyed but not a 3 hour rant.

Anyway it's silly for me to debate the particulars without some first-hand knowledge. :shrug:

^ I don't mean for that to come across as harsh, so don't take it personally. I'm just confused, is all.
I'm guessing the event may have been so harsh and traumatic it made her question compatibility of the two types.

I might actually disagree, a bit, on this point? Or at least, IME, it's more complicated.

Type 1 carries these judgments around constantly. The vast majority of the time, those judgments don't make us angry. They just sit there. The minority of the time, those judgments might make us angry, and if we lash out, we'll exclaim the judgments at others. After the fact, we'll feel horrible, but it won't be because we didn't mean it -- it'll be because we never should have said those judgments, and the judgments usually aren't that huge a deal.

A personal example: I have a few friends who flake out on things regularly. That isn't something I like, but usually I accept it, and schedule around it, assuming that they either won't show, or will be late. But this past fall, one of those friends totally took me aback by completely standing me up, choosing to eat by herself because she "needed to recharge" and without having the courtesy to tell me. I lashed out at her via text -- something along the lines of "I wish you'd have the courtesy of letting me know the next time you're going to ignore the plans we make" -- and then almost immediately apologized for lashing out at her, saying we could reschedule for some other time. Now, eight or so months later: I still think she's a flake, I still think it's ridiculous that she finds that behavior acceptable, but I regret how rudely I acted, and wished I could have made the conversation more constructive.
Oh, absolutely. I didn't express that well. I guess what I was trying to get at is that the anger can be disproportionate to the significance of the issue. The principle might still bother them, but it might not as big of a deal as it might have been made out to be. In that way, the anger and rigidity isn't really 'meant'; they're not necessarily meaningful and can just be products of the heat of the moment.

I don't know, do you agree?

I have a friend who's an ENFP and I think tritype 378 -- strong 7 fix -- and the fact that I've been friends with her for so long, has trained me pretty well to deal with people who make their life decisions this way. I think it's also taught me that life is never as predictable and linear as a 1w2 would like to believe.

I do disapprove of some decisions she's made. For example: she doesn't want to go to college, and while that isn't something that I disapprove of in itself -- plenty of people do well without undergrad degrees -- I think that
1) Everything she could possibly want to do career-wise would benefit from college; and
2) Her reasons for not going ("I'm not meant for college") are almost definitely based on fear of college, fear of failure, and fear of boredom, but she's in denial about it.

I've told her how I feel, once or maybe twice. She knows my opinion, and will go off and do whatever she wants; she's a free spirit. In the meantime... There's a lot of wisdom in the Serenity Prayer, regardless of whether or not you're religious. When there's nothing I can do to stop her, there's no point in keeping on fighting to change her mind. It's a waste of energy.

I think that any 1 who has a big group of friends who disagree with them on key issues, has learned to accept this same philosophy. We do have an internalized "right" and "wrong" way of going about things, but at the same time, surrounding yourself with only people who agree with you becomes a bit cultish, and no one would be there to correct you if you did end up being wrong.

/tangent
I love the Serenity Prayer! I find it helpful too. :yes:

I like how you explained your reasoning. That's what I was trying to get at.

This is really sad. Your sister is ESTJ, right? Which would mean that from both Enneagram and MBTI, she's extremely dedicated and doesn't have a hard time being loyal to friends. She's giving what she perceives to be an essential and not all that difficult thing -- commitment -- and not getting it at all in return.

:(
Yeah, that's exactly right - and it is really sad. I think it might partly be a Sx-dom issue of putting all your eggs in one basket, though (well not ALL, but most of them). Typically, she and her best friend are both equally wrapped up in one another, but then they eventually bail. She was also badly burned by a very intense relationship with a guy who turned out to be emotionally manipulative, cheating, commitment-phobic piece of shit (who was not a 7 BTW). It's getting harder and harder to re-assure her that it's not all because of her, and that there are people out there that are loyal and dedicated in return. The pattern is becoming difficult to ignore. :(

Anyway, sorry to get off topic.


It is ABSOLUTELY a way of expressing love. (See my above quote.) I guess it's a little condescending? -- but I'd prefer the big sister-little sister metaphor. Parent-child assumes that the child is never really supposed to do anything in return. Big sister-little sister assumes that they're still technically peers, and they're still best friends forever. Confidantes. But the big sister has a duty to help and protect the younger one.
:yes:

BTW when I talked about paternalism in 1s, I didn't mean that it's necessarily literal. The healthy kind is helpful without any condescension.
 
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