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  1. #21
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Omgosh EJCC... I am not even kidding you. I had just sat down and was reading where you wrote "...I think she had a legitimate reason to be upset" and was getting ready to mention you in order to understand your thoughts here.

    There's always a sense of doubt in these kinds of threads because we only ever get one-side of the story and then there are all kinds of outstanding considerations like...differing perspectives/pov, blind-spots, memory/forgetfulness, etc. But if we take the story that is presented here as if it is a relatively truthful presentation of what occurred...are you saying that while the ISFJ should not have reacted in such an aggressive manner...she had a good reason to be upset because her friend cuddled with a guy she had had interest in? (I apologize if I'm completely missing something here.)
    I think that if I were the ISFJ 1, my immediate reaction would have been along the lines of "This is so frustrating, if I'd just had a LITTLE more time then maybe I would have had the courage to talk to him, but NO, of course AntiheroComplex with her sexually promiscuous ways would have gotten to him first!" And with thought processes like that, even with very balanced and healthy 1s, the instinct is to blame someone else (i.e. AC), and then, once you've calmed down/become rational again (whenever that time might be: minutes? days? years?), then they shift the blame to themselves.

    I don't get the "dibs" thing either, but if it's a typical line of logic for some women, then I can still understand how all those factors combined would lead to the blow-up.


    Edit: Also when I said "legitimate", I was undsr the impression that she had liked him recently enough that it would make sense for her to still like him -- in which case, it might have been better to ask in advance, do you still like this guy?
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  2. #22
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I think that if I were the ISFJ 1, my immediate reaction would have been along the lines of "This is so frustrating, if I'd just had a LITTLE more time then maybe I would have had the courage to talk to him, but NO, of course AntiheroComplex with her sexually promiscuous ways would have gotten to him first!" And with thought processes like that, even with very balanced and healthy 1s, the instinct is to blame someone else (i.e. AC), and then, once you've calmed down/become rational again (whenever that time might be: minutes? days? years?), then they shift the blame to themselves.

    I don't get the "dibs" thing either, but if it's a typical line of logic for some women, then I can still understand how all those factors combined would lead to the blow-up.

    Edit: Also when I said "legitimate", I was undsr the impression that she had liked him recently enough that it would make sense for her to still like him -- in which case, it might have been better to ask in advance, do you still like this guy?
    I see what you are saying here so clearly...and I appreciate you taking the time to explain it. It's helpful to me now and I imagine in the future as well .

    Briefly, so as not to take away from Antihero's thread (although perhaps it isn't all that off-topic?), a year ago an e1 forum member that I will not insult by attempting to spell his user name... I'll never forget it...he told me that I needed to change my behavior around married people. <--And I swear to you I've been WTFing ever since. I think I used the example of my married male friend... like if we were somewhere and he was dressed nicely...I wasn't supposed to compliment him on that...because he was married (<-WTF infinity). And so with this thread... I wanted to know if the e1s felt the same about this kind of thing. I haven't had a chance to ask my sister yet... but I have a feeling she would want things this way...these kinds of hard-set rules. I'm needing to learn this because it's baffling to me.

  3. #23
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    ^^^ oooh I want to know that too.

    also might not be at all related. And I admittedly do not understand types ones all that well but my ex husband who might have been a one. Was the least jealous person I've ever been with. People used to hit on me a lot when we went out and he didn't get upset about it.

    Which I'm only mentioning because it sounded like ops friend was jealous but maybe it was more about the breaking of rules that she felt to be commonly accepted.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    After reading the backstory: I don't think "you deserved what you got", nor do I think that what she was doing was appropriate or excusable -- and at the same time, I think she had legitimate reason to be upset.
    Agreed. Her feelings were hurt by my actions, and that's valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC
    I find it kind of funny that you chose this example, which is so obviously colored by personal issues and relationship drama, to ask huge generalized questions about whether these two types can EVER be peaceful and happy together -- when, IMO, it's obvious that like @Saturned said, any two types can be happy together, and type doesn't predict compatibility that well. Did you take a while to process the non-type-relatedness of your situation, or were you trying to find a typology-related excuse to vent, or what?

    ^ I don't mean for that to come across as harsh, so don't take it personally. I'm just confused, is all.
    Oh, it's totally fine.

    It's some of both, I think, and then some. As I said in my response to Saturned, this particular situation is deep, multifaceted, and impossible to solve via an exchange of ideas on a typology forum. Of course I'm looking at this as more than a clash of types, and yes, I believe that it's obvious that two people of any type can make a friendship work.

    This whole thing went down less than a week ago, and while I'd normally like to consider myself skilled at choosing my words, my personal drama bothered me enough to cause my initial posting to swing too far into emotional/personal territory. I intended to use my situation as a springboard for discussion about how 1s view 7s and vice versa; I know a couple of other 7s in real life, but not too many 1s, so I figured that it wouldn't hurt to toss some thoughts around. It would be silly to reduce my issue to one specifically concerned with type theory alone, but I can see why it looks that way from my original post(s). No worries - I'm definitely not losing sight of the big picture, which is ultimately the dominating force behind most of my decisions anyway.

    I think I meant to initiate a thread that dealt more specifically with the problems 1s sometimes run into with 7s and 7s with 1s, how other people prefer to deal with those problems, etc. You know, fresh perspectives. (I appreciate the ones I'm getting, too - thanks again to everybody contributing here.)

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC
    Type 1 carries these judgments around constantly. The vast majority of the time, those judgments don't make us angry. They just sit there. The minority of the time, those judgments might make us angry, and if we lash out, we'll exclaim the judgments at others. After the fact, we'll feel horrible, but it won't be because we didn't mean it -- it'll be because we never should have said those judgments, and the judgments usually aren't that huge a deal.

    A personal example: I have a few friends who flake out on things regularly. That isn't something I like, but usually I accept it, and schedule around it, assuming that they either won't show, or will be late. But this past fall, one of those friends totally took me aback by completely standing me up, choosing to eat by herself because she "needed to recharge" and without having the courtesy to tell me. I lashed out at her via text -- something along the lines of "I wish you'd have the courtesy of letting me know the next time you're going to ignore the plans we make" -- and then almost immediately apologized for lashing out at her, saying we could reschedule for some other time. Now, eight or so months later: I still think she's a flake, I still think it's ridiculous that she finds that behavior acceptable, but I regret how rudely I acted, and wished I could have made the conversation more constructive.
    This is part of what scares me, unfortunately. I know that my friend almost certainly meant everything she said to me. It was all so intense, though - I can't help wondering why she chose my companionship to begin with! It really began to feel as though some very big part of her actually hates who I am as a person. It may be at war with the part of her that enjoys my presence and has fun with me, but it apparently exists nonetheless, and I feel disheartened at the idea that she disapproves of me so strongly at her core. She may regret her delivery, but I'm sure she truly felt everything.

    Would it be reasonable to ask if 1s typically feel a lot of push/pull in their attitude toward others?

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC
    I have a friend who's an ENFP and I think tritype 378 -- strong 7 fix -- and the fact that I've been friends with her for so long, has trained me pretty well to deal with people who make their life decisions this way. I think it's also taught me that life is never as predictable and linear as a 1w2 would like to believe.

    I do disapprove of some decisions she's made. For example: she doesn't want to go to college, and while that isn't something that I disapprove of in itself -- plenty of people do well without undergrad degrees -- I think that
    1) Everything she could possibly want to do career-wise would benefit from college; and
    2) Her reasons for not going ("I'm not meant for college") are almost definitely based on fear of college, fear of failure, and fear of boredom, but she's in denial about it.

    I've told her how I feel, once or maybe twice. She knows my opinion, and will go off and do whatever she wants; she's a free spirit. In the meantime... There's a lot of wisdom in the Serenity Prayer, regardless of whether or not you're religious. When there's nothing I can do to stop her, there's no point in keeping on fighting to change her mind. It's a waste of energy.

    I think that any 1 who has a big group of friends who disagree with them on key issues, has learned to accept this same philosophy. We do have an internalized "right" and "wrong" way of going about things, but at the same time, surrounding yourself with only people who agree with you becomes a bit cultish, and no one would be there to correct you if you did end up being wrong.

    /tangent
    I was just thinking of the Serenity Prayer!

    When you have a difference of opinion with a friend over an issue that really matters a lot to both of you, do you feel comfortable letting it go without holding it against your friend, or does it build up slowly over time anyway, a sort of cumulative source of frustration with them? Do you simply avoid those topics altogether as they could inspire unwanted conflict? I think I'd tend to choose the latter, even though part of me would like to be able to share everything with my closest friends (probably not the wisest thing).

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC
    1w2 wants to be helpful; they want to provide for people, they want to solve problems. If someone close to them is doing something they find objectionable, it IS their business, because it's their duty as a friend to help their friends when they need help. (See my ENFP example, earlier in the post.) If you were doing your math homework, your dad was a math professor, you were struggling to get it done, and your dad offered to help, would you be confused as to why he thought it was "his business"? It's not about business, it's about this process: They need help, I'm qualified to help them, I care about them, thus it is my duty to step in.

    In fairness, I think your friend should let up. But if she's an average level 1, she may not be that great at picking her battles yet.
    She's almost certainly within the average levels, and I'm actually a little worried that perhaps she's at a lower point than I previously thought. Theory says that one can swing back and forth across a range of levels depending on mood and stress elevation, but her outburst the other night has me pretty concerned should this persist after a month or so.

    Before shit hit the fan with me, we were hanging out one night when another girl (one my friend has deemed her other BFF, actually - probably a type 6, not sure) called her and said that she'd had too much to drink and was stranded downtown: she needed a ride. My ISFJ friend of course dropped everything to assist...but she was not happy about it, and she made no secret of it to the girl who'd called. Her expression was flat and she spoke in clipped, monosyllabic replies, all "yeah," "sure," "fine," "bye." There was a lot of huffing and if I'd been on the other end of the line, I would have been able to hear the eyerolls, that, from my actual vantage point, I could plainly see in person. (The girl picked up on it, and as my friend was halfway out the door telling me she'd be back in fifteen minutes, she received a second phone call informing her that nevermind, somebody else was willing to help the stranded girl instead.) This was followed by several minutes of venting about this other friend's drinking problems, irresponsibility, and selfish abuse of relationships.

    I'm thinking these were signs that my friend was becoming increasingly stressed, but I'm not sure how to help her relax and feel better anymore (provided things manage to improve at all from where they're at right now). It's especially tricky since our ways of soothing ourselves seem so very different, and it's become clear to me that she very much disapproves of mine.

    Normally, she likes helping people even in areas where I feel it's not needed - like my sexuality. If I don't need "help" - and am visibly quite happy and healthy - why would she see a reason to intervene and lecture me on my behavior? Is it enough, just that it's not what she would choose to do, even if everything is working out alright for me?

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC
    It is ABSOLUTELY a way of expressing love. (See my above quote.) I guess it's a little condescending? -- but I'd prefer the big sister-little sister metaphor. Parent-child assumes that the child is never really supposed to do anything in return. Big sister-little sister assumes that they're still technically peers, and they're still best friends forever. Confidantes. But the big sister has a duty to help and protect the younger one.

    It's tough because I'm not sure what the Fe 1w2 attitude would be, here. As a Te 1w2, I'd prefer to have a conversation about it, to talk about it once my emotions had calmed down -- I can guarantee that she's not going to flip out on you a second time to the same extent that she did before, though I understand why you'd be afraid of that possibility. But I don't "get" ISFJs, as much as I "get" my own type.
    I feel like parent-child also denotes a sort of helplessness and incapability within the person occupying the "child" role, so for that reason I also think I prefer the big sister-little sister metaphor.

    I hope very much that she wouldn't flip out again. Even last Monday night, during those moments when I'd thought she'd finally gotten it all out of her system, I would accidentally say something offensive (even if only in a bid to explain myself) and she'd come undone all over again. We haven't spoken in any form since I left her place. Because I feel that I was mostly unable to share my perspectives with her in that time, the issue remains unresolved to me - but now I fear that I will not be able to have a healthy discussion of my own emotions without stirring up her anger again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I'll be honest, I'm currently in a state of confusion right now. I mean, everyday I'll experience all kinds of things that fuel my ongoing awareness of just how different I am from 'everybody else' and you know, I've come to terms with it haha. I know it's going to happen. But every once and a while I'll stumble across something like this and I'll be left somewhat stunned wondering if I even heard correctly/understood properly... And from what I've already implied it takes a lot for me to question things of this nature...

    So, help me out here... You are single...and spent one drunken evening cuddling with a guy friend that is also single. But your ISFJ e1 female friend that A.) has no romantic history or apparent prospective future with this mutual guy friend And B.) is currently in some kind of committed relationship with another guy... totally loses it and yells at you for 3hrs...and not only does this make sense to you in someway...you've 'beaten yourself up for it'...and anticipate a possible thrashing from others here as well?

    ^^the way I see it is if most people feel your friend is in the right ...then it's time now for the 'Fi Mothership' or the 'ENFP Stardust' or whatever craft stranded me here to return for me and take me back home.
    Before I forget - she's not in a committed relationship with the new guy that she met, at least not to my knowledge. It simply appeared that things were headed that direction in a hurry, as they were texting each other constantly and going on lots of dates.

    Here's why I felt terrible for what I did:

    Even knowing that my friend was starting to go on regular dates with another dude, and even knowing where that was most likely going to end up, I also knew, on some level, that she had residual feelings for her crush. She would never admit to that and often spoke of him as "just some guy she'd like to hook up with," but I still knew what she was feeling (for one thing, she's not the type of person who can easily sleep with somebody and then disengage). Only during our blow-up did she voluntarily share that she'd deleted all of his texts and Facebook messages (meaning she cared enough to save them in the first place), but I'd already known that - I was able to guess that she'd done things like that. I was very aware of what this situation was to her even if she wouldn't admit it to herself or anyone else.

    Consequently, I already knew how she would react to my confession of drunkenly falling asleep and cuddling with an object of her affections. I think what I did, in the big scheme of things, was pretty innocent - but it's not so much what I actually did as the fact that I did it anyway, in spite of the awareness that this was very likely to hurt somebody I care deeply about. That's what makes me selfish, and that's why I feel like my friend had a reason to be upset.

    Now, on the other hand, I have my own logical reasoning as to why my actions were perfectly acceptable, including (but not limited to) ideas like these:
    1. Everybody in the equation is single.
    2. Calling "dibs" on somebody objectifies that person and disqualifies their feelings about whatever they might like to do.
    3. Staying at his place was definitely a safer option than getting behind the wheel.
    4. My actions were in no way premeditated; I found myself in a set of circumstances and rolled with them, but still backed off when push came to shove.
    5. He didn't reciprocate her feelings/it was looking like a lost cause.
    6. I feel that it's a bit unfair that other girls can sort of make the rounds and try out multiple people, yet become angry if one of the men they've expressed interest in looks at me. That's not my fault.

    Anyway, I hope that sort of helps explain why I was beating myself up so much, and why I felt/feel so conflicted!

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry
    Like, this is so far from my grasp I can't even imagine what she said to you and if you were willing to share I'd be so interested in hearing it.
    There was something she said that bothered me far beyond everything else, and it occurred shortly after the one moment I was able to take control of on Monday. I told her (very dramatically, probably, what with all the crying) that I hate how much she hates herself, that she's so smart, so funny, and so pretty but doesn't give herself a chance, and that I love her like a sister (all true). She very stoically watched this display and said, "Yeah, well, talk is cheap." Broke my heart.

    I don't intend for people to be taking sides or anything; the poor girl isn't exactly reading this and around to defend herself, so you're only getting my half of the story even though I'm striving to be as objective as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    that's where i'm at with it too...just imagining myself as the isfj in this scenario...i'd be like....ooooh cuddling eh?? do you like him?? aww you guys could be cool together!! etc...i mean...i never dated the guy...am dating someone else...i obviously saw something about the guy at some point so i must think he's good enough for my friend.
    I think she might have been able to feel that way if she didn't still have feelings for him. She has often insisted (erroneously, in my opinion) that men will always like me more than they like her, so this must have been like rubbing salt in her wounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    ^ It's not that she was in the right ("she"= the ISFJ). In fact, she reacted completely inappropriately. (Was it actually 3 hours? Were you exaggerating?) It's more a matter of: She had a lot of shit going on, and everything built up to her overreacting to this. If I'm interpreting/summing this up correctly, the point is that sometimes a 1 will lash out about something relatively small and unimportant if they've had stressors accumulate over time.

    All I was saying, was that I could see how she would react that way, considering the information provided on the thread thus far.
    I showed up at her place around 11:00 and left at 2:30 that morning. There were many, many times that I wanted to get up and run, but I stuck with it, hoping it would all turn around and become some big, cathartic hug-it-out thing (wishful thinking).

    So, asking you as a 1 - emotional explosions of this magnitude are par for the course, given that enough preexisting stresses are present? Even if my friend was overreacting, isn't it still quite likely that she meant what she said? Sorry for all the questions, but I very much appreciate the insight.
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  5. #25
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


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  6. #26
    Step into my office. Luv Deluxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I'm guessing the event may have been so harsh and traumatic it made her question compatibility of the two types.
    Yup! That's a pretty good summary of my feelings, especially when they were fresh. It was a frightening experience, one I hope to never repeat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross
    I think it might partly be a Sx-dom issue of putting all your eggs in one basket, though (well not ALL, but most of them). Typically, she and her best friend are both equally wrapped up in one another, but then they eventually bail. She was also badly burned by a very intense relationship with a guy who turned out to be emotionally manipulative, cheating, commitment-phobic piece of shit (who was not a 7 BTW). It's getting harder and harder to re-assure her that it's not all because of her, and that there are people out there that are loyal and dedicated in return. The pattern is becoming difficult to ignore.

    Anyway, sorry to get off topic.
    Please don't feel like you're going off topic for talking about your sister! If she's a 1 with 7 problems, that's absolutely relevant.

    I know you've said the 7s she was friends with were great girls, and maybe they were, but continually flaking out on somebody isn't respectful. In fact, doing it once isn't very kind, but maybe they had good reasons on occasion? I don't know. I'd feel really bad about leaving a friend hanging.

    When your sister's friends jump ship, is it typically sudden and without warning, or a slow fade, or catalyzed by some massive disagreement? (Do they tend to become enemies?)

    There are loyal and dedicated people out there, even amongst us freewheeling 7s. I hope your sister finds friends and relationships that suit her needs and treat her well. So far, I don't see anything that necessarily points to her being chronically at fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I think that if I were the ISFJ 1, my immediate reaction would have been along the lines of "This is so frustrating, if I'd just had a LITTLE more time then maybe I would have had the courage to talk to him, but NO, of course AntiheroComplex with her sexually promiscuous ways would have gotten to him first!" And with thought processes like that, even with very balanced and healthy 1s, the instinct is to blame someone else (i.e. AC), and then, once you've calmed down/become rational again (whenever that time might be: minutes? days? years?), then they shift the blame to themselves.

    I don't get the "dibs" thing either, but if it's a typical line of logic for some women, then I can still understand how all those factors combined would lead to the blow-up.

    Edit: Also when I said "legitimate", I was undsr the impression that she had liked him recently enough that it would make sense for her to still like him -- in which case, it might have been better to ask in advance, do you still like this guy?
    Yes - I think that was exactly her reaction. I don't mean to invalidate her feelings; they're real and she's experiencing them. I just wish that she would have been able to communicate her emotions to me in a different way. Unfortunately, the dust may take a very long time to settle now.

    I also don't understand "dibs." I let it happen the way that it did because my friend was interested in him, and friends probably don't gun for guys their friends want. Several times (within a week or two of meeting him, even), she tried to steer us into that conversation: which one of us would get him. My reply was always some variation of, "Well, I think that's up to him if he wants to do anything at all, and I really don't think you can plan for this type of thing. It's better to just go with the flow, and let whatever happens happen." She seemed to feel this was dodging the question, because she continued to bring it up; it was pretty obvious that she was into him and so all I could do was tell her, honestly, that I found him attractive but wasn't thinking about it/didn't feel much chemistry. She started earnestly trying to get his attention, so I encouraged her - up until it became apparent that he wasn't especially interested in that way.

    Asking in advance would have been a great idea (seriously, that's not sarcasm) if I'd planned on finding myself in that situation. I never thought about the possibility of this guy putting the moves on me - it's just not anything I ever really considered one way or the other. In any case...I still knew how my friend felt without having to ask, so I felt pretty terrible anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Briefly, so as not to take away from Antihero's thread (although perhaps it isn't all that off-topic?), a year ago an e1 forum member that I will not insult by attempting to spell his user name... I'll never forget it...he told me that I needed to change my behavior around married people. <--And I swear to you I've been WTFing ever since. I think I used the example of my married male friend... like if we were somewhere and he was dressed nicely...I wasn't supposed to compliment him on that...because he was married (<-WTF infinity). And so with this thread... I wanted to know if the e1s felt the same about this kind of thing. I haven't had a chance to ask my sister yet... but I have a feeling she would want things this way...these kinds of hard-set rules. I'm needing to learn this because it's baffling to me.
    It doesn't have to be my thread, anything about the interactions between 1s and 7s is a go!

    That seems really extreme, even for a type 1! I guess they might think that complimenting a married person is some kind of flirtatious attempt to lure them into a red hot adulterous sexing? I honestly don't know on this one. Paying compliments to a friend (married or not) is pretty normal and healthy, and I bet most 1s would agree with that. Maybe this particular person was feeling especially agitated that day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    I admittedly do not understand types ones all that well but my ex husband who might have been a one. Was the least jealous person I've ever been with. People used to hit on me a lot when we went out and he didn't get upset about it.

    Which I'm only mentioning because it sounded like ops friend was jealous but maybe it was more about the breaking of rules that she felt to be commonly accepted.
    For my friend, I think it was a combination of jealousy and indignation. She has a very strict sort of moral code, and even if I don't live by precisely the same code (obviously), I still broke one of its rules. She thinks everyone ought to approach life with the same sense of righteous obligation, and can't understand why her rules wouldn't be universal for us all.

    Your ex-husband probably wasn't jealous in your situation because he may have seen you as an extension of himself; he already claimed you, he was with you, and all of these people were probably flattering him indirectly by noticing your loveliness. Not the same reaction everybody has, of course, but it might have actually been a boost to his ego.
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  7. #27
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AntiheroComplex View Post
    Please don't feel like you're going off topic for talking about your sister! If she's a 1 with 7 problems, that's absolutely relevant.

    I know you've said the 7s she was friends with were great girls, and maybe they were, but continually flaking out on somebody isn't respectful. In fact, doing it once isn't very kind, but maybe they had good reasons on occasion? I don't know. I'd feel really bad about leaving a friend hanging.

    When your sister's friends jump ship, is it typically sudden and without warning, or a slow fade, or catalyzed by some massive disagreement? (Do they tend to become enemies?)

    There are loyal and dedicated people out there, even amongst us freewheeling 7s. I hope your sister finds friends and relationships that suit her needs and treat her well. So far, I don't see anything that necessarily points to her being chronically at fault.
    I don't think the 7s saw it as betrayal or flaking out on her - like I said, often the fundamental issues are disguised by superficial problems and it means people don't see the situation for what it really is. My sister does try to address the problem, but the 7's tendency of avoidance means they talk around the unspoken issue until the situation becomes too unbearable to deal with any more.

    With the most recent case (seriously, it's too hard to go over all of them) it was a combination of a slow fade, with the (unspoken) tension of a sharp break. Here's the basic story; it's pretty frickin' complicated so try to follow me. Keep in mind my sister is a ESTJ 1w2, so while she's very considerate to others, she can be very bossy, irritable and abrupt at times.

    The 7 (let's call her "Carla") has dependency issues, which are probably caused by some family problems. She's a serial monogamist of sorts, and always got some guy on the go. Casual sex with certain male friends fill in temporarily until she finds a relationship, especially the kind where her boyfriend is needy/demanding or the relationship is all encompassing. My sister doesn't really approve of the casual sex or her style of relationships but doesn't say anything much about it. Carla and my sister (let's call her "Sandra") then move to Australia together, far from Carla's boyfriend, who recently broke up with her. Carla is still distraught about it, to the point of becoming uncommunicative and barely coping. She contually tries to call the ex-boyfriend try to fix things, but he rarely answers (this behaviour becomes demeaning). Sandra tries to comfort and help her over many months, but after a while of enduring Carla's stubborn melancholy and refusal to discuss it or make any efforts to overcome it, she grows tired and impatient with her. Sandra isn't overtly unkind, but when Carla becomes difficult (in her uncommunicative wallowing), she leaves her to it and goes to spend time with other friends. This doesn't cause any real problems between them but it does show Sandra's frustration with Carla.

    Carla then suddenly recovers overnight, when she finds a new, idiot boyfriend (let's call him "Dave") who's very much beneath her. Sandra doesn't much like him, as he is immature, peevish and selfish (more than one person I know has described him as, "a dick"). Sandra makes the effort to hold her tongue and to get along with him. She sets up occasions for them to spend time together, the 3 of them, but he is difficult and resistant (basically, because he wants Carla all to himself - there's no room for others, AT ALL). Sandra is not jealous of the relationship, but is very much pissed off with Dave's attempts to monopolise Carla, and with Carla for allowing him to. Because of Sandra's obsession with Dave, Carla and Sandra get less and less time to spend together, and probably because Carla senses Sandra's annoyance with Dave, she and Sandra began to drift apart. Sandra makes repeated attempts to heal the breach and/or remain close but these often fail. There are a few terse words exchanged now and then, but Carla always just clamps up and avoids discussing it, which Sandra finds incredibly frustrating. Carla and Sandra are living together so this is a problem, but they work very different hours (at the same place) and Carla increasingly spends more time at Dave's place - so they begin to barely see each other. Carla mentions to other co-workers about how feels Sandra isn't understanding or nice to her or Dave (which Sandra finds out about), but doesn't express any of these issues directly to Sandra. It seems that (perhaps, subconsciously) Carla acknowledges that the relationship as unhealthy and damaging to their own friendship, however, she probably fears that will Sandra confront her over it, and now avoids her, so as to avoid dealing with her own personal problems. Sandra is feeling increasingly rejected and can't figure out how she's meant to fix things.

    Carla eventually moves in with Dave, leaving Sandra in the lurch to find a flatmate and having to manage the rent alone in the meantime. Sandra returns home to NZ for a holiday and upon Carla's request, hauls a oversized, overweight piece of Carla's luggage that she had left there, back to Australia (through 3 airports during transit). This incurs a large fee, which both agreed to beforehand that Carla would pay back. When Sandra arrives home in Australia, Carla then says that she expects her to just drop the bag off at her place, despite Sandra not having a car (whereas, Dave does have one), without a word of appreciation or mention of paying the fees back. Sandra is irritated at the lack of thanks and unreasonable expectation, especially after all the trouble she went to. Eventually Carla is forced to pick up the bag (which she intentionally does so while Sandra isn't there) and pays her back but seems begrudging and difficult about it.

    All this goes on until they don't really speak to each other at all any more.

    I do want to emphasise that these two were as close as it is possible for 2 straight women to be. And it ends like this...
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

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