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  1. #51
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    "she tells me that she used to crave emotional meaning and suffering in relationships etc in the past (but she's completely not like that now)....she had a million lovers and strange stories etc...can someone's enneagram change with time?"

    Borderline personality disorder. This is normally outgrown and has nothing to do with the enneagram. However, enneagram type can change, that's why the enneagram itself has lines. There is also movement up and down the levels of development.

    If she's not primarily a 6w7 then I would go with 9w8.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  2. #52
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I'm sorry to find that I'm not one of your special experts. I had a few articles on the Enneagram published in the Enneagram Monthly, but that wouldn't make me one of your special experts, of course.

    I do have a question for you, however. Why do you use JCF in this forum? It's not that you can't, of course. But if you're a 7, then your statement that "my Te comes in in full force and I sort shit out" is better described as 7 moving to 1.

    Your friend is an INFP, which is difficult to E-type. The types that are out of physical space of the body are 4, 5, and 9. And she is a Supine personality type - "You are motivated by the prospect of being able to contribute. Your inner need is to look humble and to serve a greater purpose. You need to be accepted and you need to protect other's weaknesses. You want recognition for your service and you want opportunities to serve. You want to contribute to a higher calling and you want to be protected. You are caring, giving, and gentle. You are dependable and loyal. But you can also be insecure, manipulative, and weak willed. You can be indecisive and occasionally harbour ill will."

    6w7>9w8>4w3

    That's a great point!


    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    "she tells me that she used to crave emotional meaning and suffering in relationships etc in the past (but she's completely not like that now)....she had a million lovers and strange stories etc...can someone's enneagram change with time?"

    Borderline personality disorder. This is normally outgrown and has nothing to do with the enneagram. However, enneagram type can change, that's why the enneagram itself has lines. There is also movement up and down the levels of development.

    If she's not primarily a 6w7 then I would go with 9w8.
    Being Borderline would make someone seem 4ish.... I think 6 is a good call though.

    Would you call integration/disintegration a CHANGE? I mean, doesn't your core type stay the same?

    I don't "believe" in tri-fixes or tri-type though. I think core type with its lines & wings explains it all.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  3. #53
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    @Mal+ sorry, I didn't know you were an expert. Were the articles you wrote peer-reviewed? Can you show them to me?

    If you're the expert, then I'd like to ask you a question:

    Is there a more objective way to assign enneagram (core) types to people rather than reading descriptions and making wild guesses? Is there anything concrete and objective about the enneagram and, if so, where should I start?
    For instance, using MBTI, I don't need to read descriptions of ENFP to decide I'm one (that would never have helped me): I just need to read about cognitive processes, which are much clearer and objective.

    With the enneagram, is there something similar? If I try to think about triads, then I would assign her core type automatically to the heart triad.

    Yesterday I read this on a forum, let me know if it makes sense to you:

    There are two variables, each with three values. 3 x 3 = 9, so that's the number of types right there.

    The first variable is sort of the behavioral variable. This is the one that really decides how a person approaches challenges is life. to put it vaguely. The best single words I've found for these types so far is pursuing, avoiding, and anticipating.

    So, pursuing types have targets that they very pro-actively pursue. It could be that they seek pleasure, or they aim to pre-emptively tackle problems, the actual target of their pursuits is determined by other variable. They are impatient, impetuous people. They also tend to over-estimate the benefit end of cost-benefit analyses, which is one of the things that make them aggressive. They expect to profit from adventures. These types are 3, 7, and 8.

    So then we have avoidant types. They generally over-estimate the cost end of cost-benefit analyses. These people tend to spend more time on avoiding what they don't like than they do on seeking what they do like. When they can't avoid stress, they often fall into an almost fatalistic state of passivity. Throwing weight around is something these types seem to have particular distaste for. These types are 4, 5, and 9.

    So, the anticipating types do not pursue nor avoid these highlights of life. They stand and deal with them whenever they come. They handle life like a tetris player. These people have a more balanced view of cost-benefit analysis, but perhaps too balanced sometimes. These people don't like making dramatic decisions the same way the other two can, which can make for missed opportunites. These types are 1, 2, and 6.

    The second variable is one that regards emotional states and responses. They can be turbulent, supressive, or controling, for lack of better words.

    The turbulent ones are the people that do not hinder their emotions at all. They let their moods tempestually flare with every feeling as it is set off. Their emotions run wild. They often seem to tilt toward being more negative than positive, but I think this is largely just because there are more negative emotions than positive ones, not because these types particularly want to dwell on negativity. These types are 4, 6, and 8.

    The suppressive types try to keep their emotions from speaking up. They tend to believe that they can work best when they are not hearing thier emotions much or at all. By defualt they are well composed people. But when they fail to successfully supress their emotions, it often results in awkward displays. These types are 1, 3, and 5.

    The controlling types are the ones that try to manipulate the flow of their own feelings to their advantage. These are the people that try to think positive. They make an effort to both display desirable emotions to others, and to also frequently reassure themselves of such good feelings. Most usually pick feelings like confidence, happiness, or love to project, but they may develop whatever feeling is appealing to them. They are also prone to suffering from denial, and usually take it very hard if their self-assurances can be completely disproven. These types are 2, 7, and 9.

    So, to summarize the types:
    Pursuing/Turbulent = 8. Avoiding/Turbulent = 4. Anticipating/Turbulent = 6. Pursuing/Suppressive = 3. Avoiding/Suppressive = 5. Anticipating/Suppressive = 1. Pursuing/Controlling = 7. Avoiding/Controlling = 9. Anticipating/Controlling = 2.


    If I follow these variables, then she doesn't pursue not anticipate events, she just avoids them, and she is in touch with her emotions, so that makes her a 4.

    PS: I've been thinking about what you meant when I mentioned using Te as a stress function and you replied I should use enneagram terms: "a 7 going to 1" (I liked that). OK, then for an ENFP that isn't a 7, like for instance a 4, would the equivalent of the MBTI stress function (Te) be a 2...? does it mean ENFPs type 4 do not lash out in the same way I do?

    @OrangeAppled what is it to be an Sp-dom then?

  4. #54
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    Mal, what you are saying is absurd. BPD fades gradually into middle age, it doesn't disappear in your twenties magically. Its very deep rooted and also tends to be more severe than what pink described.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #56
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    "The turbulent ones are the people that do not hinder their emotions at all. They let their moods tempestually [should be "tempestuously"] flare with every feeling as it is set off. Their emotions run wild. They often seem to tilt toward being more negative than positive, but I think this is largely just because there are more negative emotions than positive ones, not because these types particularly want to dwell on negativity. These types are 4, 6, and 8."

    Or, maybe 4, 6, and 8 live their lives with a greater sense of metaphysical deprivation, although I tend to agree there are more negative emotions to draw upon. But I don't know if anybody has actually counted them.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #57
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    are you spamming my thread now?

  8. #58
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    are you spamming my thread now?
    Just click the link. It goes through the Wayback machine internet archive.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #59
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Just click the link. It goes through the Wayback machine internet archive.
    oh, i quoted the wrong link, i meant to quote the link for the test.

    anyway, i read that website but... it's the same thing: descriptions. but descriptions are subjective, they are the reflection of something. that's what i would like to understand: 2 or 3 nice equations explaining the logic behind the theory. you're a Ti dom, i guess you'd like that too...or?

  10. #60
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    @pinkgraffiti
    based on this, I'd say 9w1>4w3>6w7 Sx/??
    she seems less self centered and narcissistic than a core 4w3, less bitter and reclusive than a 4w5 and more internally calm than either (4s are an emotionally volatile and reactive type)

    Is there a more objective way to assign enneagram (core) types to people rather than reading descriptions and making wild guesses? Is there anything concrete and objective about the enneagram and, if so, where should I start?
    For instance, using MBTI, I don't need to read descriptions of ENFP to decide I'm one (that would never have helped me): I just need to read about cognitive processes, which are much clearer and objective.
    good question.
    the answer:...kind of but not really. the Enneagram is all about mental/ego traps, natural pitfalls and misconceptions about reality based on one's worldview. typing correctly requires life experience and reflecting upon the pitfalls once has faced in life. while we all share traits of all 9 types, a pattern will begin to emerge when one is honest with one's self in evaluating his/her shortcomings. this pattern is your enneagram.
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