The Hardest Type to be in The Enneagram

[WALMART]

The 2 can get all that easily unless their country is in the midst of a civil war or something.

I disagree. I dated an ISFJ 2 for a good period of time, and I've kept in touch with her since. She has wifey material written all over her, but no men our age are seeking such a thing.

She's with a guy right now, but she has expressed to me she doesn't feel he is 'in it', much how the men before have cheated or otherwise broke her heart. She truly is a doormat.

Que Pearl Jam, "Betterman". Never have I known such existential longing.

 

[Starry]

I don't think really 7 saves 6, because technically our wing kind of screws with us too. Keeping our minds occupied by go-go-going feels better than being mired in worry but it doesn't actually address the underlying anxiety - it almost makes it worse, in some ways! And makes us do silly impulsive things sometimes.

At the time I hit the submit button on the post you refer to above...I was under the impression the way I wrote what I did there would be no chance of it being taken as anything other than 'tongue in cheek' sentiments... But in case I gauged that wrong... what you wrote here is an aspect of my overall message to Stansmith (although I take 'impulsivity' very seriously and...basically consider it a form of art <--A part of me wants to put a 'haha' there but the truth is I'm actually not joking!) I wanted Stansmith to know that despite appearances...the 7w6 shares and has compassion for a very similar experience.

Enneagram 6 is not just any one function.

But there is definitely a correlation between it and Pi.

The Ni side of things often seems to be more counterphobic, as it is less compliant, more questioning.

The Si side of things often seems to be more phobic, as it is more compliant, less questioning.

There are Ne, Fi, Ti, Se, Fe, and Te flavors to e6 as well, tho.

But the strongest correlation is definitely Pi.

/

If TypoC had...not an 'emergency' notification per se... but rather like a... 'in need of immediate assistance' notification system I would of hit that yesterday...calling you to the thread. I didn't quite know what was going on haha...but I knew something was *going* because I was no longer understanding the responses...yet had to leave. Thank you for adding/explaining this.
(edit: I'm now laughing at the little old man.)

look here [MENTION=18664]Stansmith[/MENTION]

[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] I've never heard any mention of that. 7w6 being ne/ni ??? That's kinda awesomely interesting.
I can see how 6 is like ni paranoia.

oh i get what you mean...ambivert in the straddling the line between introverting or extraverting a function...yeah...for m it feels right that it would be ne ni but maybe it feels different to someone else according to their dom functions?

I caused confusion by not dedicating enough thoughtful explanation as it pertains to the 2 (different) types of 'ambivertness' I was making reference to. First with regards to e6...

Zarathustra used the word 'ambivert'... [which] fits my understanding of e6 individuals as well. In that they tend to be right on that line between introversion and extroversion. Or they score fairly equally...use equally...their dom & aux functions.

So, like you correctly gathered and relayed back to me... e6 individuals tend to functionally 'straddle the line between introversion & extroversion.' And like Z said...the correlation is definitely with Pi... But ultimately with e6 it will be some near equal usage of perception & judgement.

As a matter of personal interest however...I have been keeping track of another kind of 'ambivert'...which so far...appears to be a bit more rare...

Although I should quickly say that I am an ambivert of sorts...but I score equally in Ne & Ni...so with it being all iNtuition puts me into e7...(which, interestingly, is a common thing see specifically in e7w6 sx only. The rest of e7dom is heavy Ne or Se.)

I caused confusion by attempting to avoid it <--which ever since my 6-wing kicked-in...this is just how things seem to play-out for me (that's 75% joke and 25% truth skylights haha!) Since I had posted my function scores in Stansmith's ENFP thread...and here was discussing E/I and e6... I thought I should note the difference.

I know I'm making near equal usage of Ne & Ni. I believe that is what you are doing as well. <--Now, while that may in fact make us more 6ish... it doesn't make us into actual e6s...and my crack-pot theory on this is because it is ALL perception (not a combination of perception & judgment)...it still functions like the 'heavy Pe' which is a distinguishing characteristic of the e7. What has been interesting to me...is that every time I have seen this...which has been very rare...it has been in an individual I believe to be a 7w6 sx. From what I understand though...7w6 sx is pretty rare so...

 

[skylights]

How did you get to that point? (assuming you've gone through a period of lower health)

Yeah, I definitely have. Though I also definitely don't claim to be at great health now, probably just around average, with good and bad days.

I was at a great level around 3 years ago, in my last year of college. I was a leader on campus, taking a heavy courseload of advanced topics, working at a job I loved, finishing the honor program, involved in social groups, and very, very happy. Then, as I think many post-grads experience, I had the sudden loss of all of that. I graduated, moved, took the summer off, and decided to start working - all of a sudden my status was gone, my interesting courses were gone, my fulfilling job was gone, and my friends were gone. That hit me really hard, especially when I took a part-time holiday retail job which was absolute shit. I finished off the holiday season, but had no desire to work there ever again, and it was at that point that I probably hit my lowest. I have always been an overachiever, and this was really the first time in my life I had no arena for overachievement. I blamed myself for becoming so "worthless" in my own eyes - my fall from grace. (6's stress point being 3...)

So, at that point, I essentially didn't care about anything, except my family, and I discovered a curious kind of freedom in that - if I didn't care, it didn't really matter what I did. So I started doing whatever made me happy, without negative judgment from myself. At the encouragement of my parents, I took a chance on another job, which was still shitty but less so, and more importantly I began socializing again. I think that for me as an ExFx that was really vital to my improvement. I met a lot of crazy people, but a lot of good ones, too, and I started taking care of myself better because I cared about how the people at work perceived me. Then I met my future boyfriend, avoided him for a while because I had no self-confidence, finally caved to letting him take me on a date because conversation with him was actually very interesting, and from that point had a major crush which caused me to up my game a lot.

From there it's mainly been uphill, with a few bumps along the road. I moved up in my job, I've moved into my own beautiful new place, I'm starting classes again this semester, thank god, and I'm hoping to get back into yoga. I'm still an anxious 6 but I don't flip out at everything anymore, and I don't hate myself for all my perceived "failures" (though they are still a sore spot).

Enneagram 6 is not just any one function.

But there is definitely a correlation between it and Pi.

This is true. I assume it has to do with 6's burning desire to know what's coming. We have two main avenues for that: Ni forecasting and Si experience.

At the time I hit the submit button on the post you refer to above...I was under the impression the way I wrote what I did there would be no chance of it being taken as anything other than 'tongue in cheek' sentiments... But in case I gauged that wrong... what you wrote here is an aspect of my overall message to Stansmith (although I take 'impulsivity' very seriously and...basically consider it a form of art <--A part of me wants to put a 'haha' there but the truth is I'm actually not joking!) I wanted Stansmith to know that despite appearances...the 7w6 shares and has compassion for a very similar experience.

Hurr durr, I'm having a dumb day on my end. Forgive please!

Anyway yes, impulsivity is definitely an art! You 7s are probably better at it, but I agree that overall it seems 7/6 and 6/7 often share a lot of experience. We just have slightly different priorities.

Your theorizing on Ne/Ni/Pe/Pi/ambiversion is interesting... I'm inclined to trust your hunches cause you're a Ne dom I wonder what about sx influences that for 7w6.

 

[Zarathustra]

If TypoC had...not an 'emergency' notification per se... but rather like a... 'in need of immediate assistance' notification system I would of hit that yesterday...calling you to the thread. I didn't quite know what was going on haha...but I knew something was *going* because I was no longer understanding the responses...yet had to leave. Thank you for adding/explaining this.

I know I'm making near equal usage of Ne & Ni. I believe that is what you are doing as well. <--Now, while that may in fact make us more 6ish... it doesn't make us into actual e6s...and my crack-pot theory on this is because it is ALL perception (not a combination of perception & judgment)...it still functions like the 'heavy Pe' which is a distinguishing characteristic of the e7. What has been interesting to me...is that every time I have seen this...which has been very rare...it has been in an individual I believe to be a 7w6 sx. From what I understand though...7w6 sx is pretty rare so...

Seems to me Ne would be your dominant function, and correlated with e7, and then as your 6-wing developed, that was associated with developing your opposite personality Ni. Ne/e7 tell you, "Go!"; Ni/e6 tell you, "No!"

 

[Zarathustra]

This is true. I assume it has to do with 6's burning desire to know what's coming. We have two main avenues for that: Ni forecasting and Si experience.

I think other functions can be used for attempted forecasting (whether or not some are more suited to it).

I think the Pi correlation with e6 is more due to the following: having an introverted perception function is like having a model of the world inside oneself, but that model is "irrational" (in a strictly Jungian sense -- i.e., "not something contrary to reason, but something outside the province of reason"), and, as such, is in a sense, vulnerable (in that, how can it be defended, if not by reason?). Enneagram 6 Si users tend to respond to this vulnerability in a sort of Sartrean "bad faith" manner, accepting some established doctrine they have accepted as "The Truth", and following it mindlessly (the common description of e6s, which I don't identify with at all); then, from the other side, we've got enneagram 6 Ni users, who tend to respond to the vulnerability in a more counterphobic way, rejecting established doctrines, while, at the same time, often being intensely interested in/curious about what they say/have to offer. There isn't a perfect 1:1 correlation here, or anything, I don't think, but I do think there is a reasonably strong one. I think NJ e6s would tend to identify as counterphobics at a much higher rate than SJ e6s. I also think the Te users would tend to correlate more with counterphobia, while Fe users would tend to correlate more with phobia. By that formula, NTJ e6s would tend to identify most highly with counterphobia (which I think is likely the case), while SFJ e6s would tend to identify most highly with phobia; and STJs and NFJs would probably find themselves somewhere in between. (my thoughts on FP and TP e6s aren't quite as well developed, so don't have as much to offer on that topic)

 

[Redbone]

4,5,6 are like the Magikarps of the Enneagram.

Per se, they are a piece of shit - and will likely continue that way.

But... they have the chance of evolving to Gyarados.

Some types are more like Pidgeys. They start off pretty good, but the room for improvement is smaller.

Not that many people are gonna understand the analogies, but anyways.

I get this...oh man, do I get this!!!!

(I want to be a red one!)

 

[Rasofy]

5s, why does it suck to be you? Or are you going to lurk in the shadows and refuse to tell me?

I think we 5s are unsuited for a lot of things. Routine jobs, retail, sports, acting, singing... you won't see many successful 5s in any of these fields.

I've never fit well in groups. I usually ended up being the guy who people love to pick on... It seems instinctive for guys to do that with the quietest person around. Part of the reason why I've been addicted to video games for most of my life.

I always need extensive knowledge in order to be comfortable with things that everyone seems to learn 'naturally'. "Just be yourself" is about the worst advice ever for me.

My dating life has always sucked. It took me like 4 years studying seduction/body language/relationships before I managed to get my first kiss... With a women I met online. I was already 22 by that point.

Now that I'm sort of dating an ESFJ E2, I've made an extensive search about INTPxESFJ + E2xE5 relationships (I've noticed a significant Enneagram/mbti overlap for both). So I have in mind dozens of permutations of how things may (or not) work out.

I usually look either serious or sad, which makes me the person whom people dislike before they even know me.

5s usually have a nihilistic side that most people hate. "Hey, that's not an intrinsic value." "That's ultimately a social construction, you know."

5s seem to regard a lot of things as 'too obvious', without realizing that these things are not as obvious for a lot of people.

5s are likely the worst possible companionship for parties. Unless they've had enough alcohol to make a fool of themselves and amuse other people by behaving like court jesters.

Finally, we are probably the most frustrating romantic partners of the whole Enneagram theory. This post by Jennifer sums it quite well (though she was specifically talking about INTPs):

like this?

"Hi, I'm an INTP and I have relational problems with the girl I am dating. (Note that I do not like to call her my girlfriend, because that is not quite the commitment I am making to her. I mean, I like her, but I am not quite sure we are compatible , and I should not have to make an obligation to her in a social way since we should both have freedom to decide when we want to come and go and not be bound by stupid human conventional or trivial social rituals.

Anyway, she has been calling me a lot lately, but I ignore her calls because I am busy working on some things that are important to me. She seems to get overly emotional about this -- "I haven't seen you in five weeks, and you haven't returned my calls for two weeks, and when we are together you don't even talk to me, you just are always looking up stupid things on your cell phone, and you can't even remember the things I say to you" and then she starts crying, which is very embarrassing and makes me wonder whether I want to be in a relationship with such an emotional nutjob-- but really, she should understand that I am very busy and that I still like her even if I ignore her a lot of the time because I am busy... why can't she just find other thigns to do until we're both available. She is like codependent or something.

Her sister tells her that she should dump my "sorry ass" (I do not understand why people speak in such vulgar ways or resort to violence, it's so barbaric!) And it is not even my ass anyway, it is all of me, technically, that she would be dumping, I cannot believe the lack of precision in those types of stupid comments by ignoramuses. And honestly, she is pleasant enough, and has a nice smile, but she's not really super-pretty or anything, and I have told her before that her odds of finding someone else if she dumps me aren't very good, realistically, so it makes more sense for her to stay with me. This sort of stupidyt happens a lot too, where she does not see the obvious and i need to explain it all to her so she gets it. I waste more time doing that than anything else, it seems -- correcting the dumb things she does so that she understands what is going on. It is like talking to a child.

Anyway, now she is mad at me for missing our anniversary. I only forgot it by two days, and it is just an anniversary anyway. It is just another day of the year! Why does it even matter? If this is the way it is going to be, I wonder whether I want to be saddled with such a crazy woman. She is now telling me she will end up dating someone else if I don't pay more attention to her. I do not appreciate the emotional manipulation. Someone else told me I should just kiss her and see if that makes her feel better. Whatever. Does dating get any better than this? Why doess everyone have to be such a retard all the time? This society is all screwy."

I get this...oh man, do I get this!!!!

(I want to be a red one!)

 

[011235813]

I think we 5s are unsuited for a lot of things. Routine jobs, retail, sports, acting, singing... you won't see many successful 5s in any of these fields.

I've never fit well in groups. I usually ended up being the guy who people love to pick on... It seems instinctive for guys to do that with the quietest person around. Part of the reason why I've been addicted to video games for most of my life.

I always need extensive knowledge in order to be comfortable with things that everyone seems to learn 'naturally'. "Just be yourself" is about the worst advice ever for me.

My dating life has always sucked. It took me like 4 years studying seduction/body language/relationships before I managed to get my first kiss... With a women I met online. I was already 22 by that point.

Now that I'm sort of dating an ESFJ E2, I've made an extensive search about INTPxESFJ + E2xE5 relationships (I've noticed a significant Enneagram/mbti overlap for both). So I have in mind dozens of permutations of how things may (or not) work out.

I usually look either serious or sad, which makes me the person whom people dislike before they even know me.

5s usually have a nihilistic side that most people hate. "Hey, that's not an intrinsic value." "That's ultimately a social construction, you know."

5s seem to regard a lot of things as 'too obvious', without realizing that these things are not as obvious for a lot of people.

5s are likely the worst possible companionship for parties. Unless they've had enough alcohol to make a fool of themselves and amuse other people by behaving like court jesters.

Finally, we are probably the most frustrating romantic partners of the whole Enneagram theory. This post by Jennifer sums it quite well (though she was specifically talking about INTPs):

But do 5s personally experience a sense of suffering because of these things and how acute is that suffering? I mean, yeah, there's a lot of stuff in there (social ineptitude, isolation, etc.) that sounds unpleasant, but I also kind of have the impression that 5s enjoy being remote because it gives them a feeling of safety and superiority.

I'm interested not so much in what provokes the suffering but in the quality of the suffering itself and what it feels like.

 

[Redbone]

But do 5s personally experience a sense of suffering because of these things and how acute is that suffering? I mean, yeah, there's a lot of stuff in there (social ineptitude, isolation, etc.) that sounds unpleasant, but I also kind of have the impression that 5s enjoy being remote because it gives them a feeling of safety and superiority.

I'm interested not so much in what provokes the suffering but in the quality of the suffering itself and what it feels like.

It's fine until I actually want or worse, need to come down out of the tower. And then it hits me that I built it a thousand miles away in the middle of nowhere. That feeling of safety and superiority collapses into a black hole then. What do I do? Go back inside? Start the long walk back to 'civilization' without knowing in advance what sort of reception I will get once I get there? I'm left torn between those two options.* I can never decide if there is more pain in the fact that I need someone to be there for me when everything goes black or more pain because there is no one there in those moments. Mostly because I haven't invested myself in having relationships with others so I can get support when I truly need it. Autonomy biting me in the ass at the worse moments.

*Unless of course, I can lure someone out here to join me. I can cook very well, there's plenty of books to read, and nice places to explore.

[MENTION=13260]Rasofy[/MENTION] described it well. There is also the tremendous pain of realizing that one has spent so much time learning to live that very little actual living is done. Always preparing...never ready. It can be very hard to remember or have the courage to know that sometimes you just have to jump in there and dance.

 

[Rasofy]

But do 5s personally experience a sense of suffering because of these things and how acute is that suffering? I mean, yeah, there's a lot of stuff in there (social ineptitude, isolation, etc.) that sounds unpleasant, but I also kind of have the impression that 5s enjoy being remote because it gives them a feeling of safety and superiority.

I'm interested not so much in what provokes the suffering but in the quality of the suffering itself and what it feels like.

I always avoid giving reasons for anyone -myself included-, to feel pity for me, so the idea of measuring my suffering is kinda alien. I wouldn't even know how to start, but I liked Redbone's description.

 

[Lady_X]

That's interesting. I think my infj mother might be a 5w4. I have always admired her seemingly non existant need for others. She so self contained and content seeming.

She just paints or gardens and is totally protective of her time to pursue her solitary pursuits.

I don't live nearby and I'm sure if I did she'd enjoy spending time with me often but she really seems at peace just doing her thing all the time.

 

[Evo]

My dating life has always sucked. It took me like 4 years studying seduction/body language/relationships before I managed to get my first kiss... With a women I met online. I was already 22 by that point.

Ok, well 5's win it for me!

hardest by far!(don't know if I can get away with pun intended)

And in that case either wing blows.(also intended?)

I always avoid giving reasons for anyone -myself included-, to feel pity for me, so the idea of measuring my suffering is kinda alien. I wouldn't even know how to start, but I liked Redbone's description.

Yea, but...but...come on guy, compassion is what makes an idealistic world go round

 

[Rasofy]

Ok, well 5's win it for me!

Now I want to [MENTION=18664]Stansmith[/MENTION] to surrender too.

hardest by far!(don't know if I can get away with pun intended)

And in that case either wing blows.(also intended?)

Yea, but...but...come on guy, compassion is what makes an idealistic world go round

Save your compassion for the weak. Also, this ain't no Disneyland.

“Pressure makes diamonds”.

― George S. Patton

 

[chickpea]

I don't think any other type can compete with 4 self-loathing.

Sorry, try again next time

 

[JocktheMotie]

But do 5s personally experience a sense of suffering because of these things and how acute is that suffering? I mean, yeah, there's a lot of stuff in there (social ineptitude, isolation, etc.) that sounds unpleasant, but I also kind of have the impression that 5s enjoy being remote because it gives them a feeling of safety and superiority.

I'm interested not so much in what provokes the suffering but in the quality of the suffering itself and what it feels like.

I like how you mention the acuteness of the suffering; it's an important notion. To me even the idea of an acute emotion conjures up feelings and fears of becoming engulfed in that emotion and the immediate defense is to use the evil machinery of my mind to strip that emotion of that kind of power. It's so powerful a reflex that I don't know if I can even answer the "acuteness" question honestly.

But I'll try. At the core, I think the "suffering" is felt (and occurs) at a slower, deeper level that resembles more the lengthy process of erosion rather than the some sort of acute impact. Over time, the difficulty/fear of crossing the "distance" between the 5 and the world can wear away both the desire to reach out and one's confidence in their ability to do so. The 5 starts feeling that they cannot really share themselves effectively with the world and so they retreat. And this distance slowly increases until the 5 can feel that life, the world, their desires, a relationship; these things aren't really available to them anymore. I think all 5s feel, at times, with varying frequency based on health, incapable of and/or confined by true connection with the world and with people. It is fundamentally an erosion of will and agency, a suppression of some pretty basic needs.

The 5's detachment certainly makes them feel safe and they feel like it's the only way they can objectively analyze and prepare for experience and emotion. But saying it makes them superior? I think they can view "engulfed" beings with disdain because they watch these people experience these turbulent emotions and think that if they were properly prepared/detached/intelligent enough they would have avoided the emotion entirely, which as far as the 5 is concerned, is of utmost importance. So that's where that might come from.

I'm not sure if that answers the question, or is descriptive enough. But I can certainly expand.

 

[Lady_X]

okay first of all....wow

that's bananas....i never knew all that.

scondly...hth does that work being an sx dom? you just get more involved and lost in your intellectual pursuits?

 

[Stansmith]

I don't think any other type can compete with 4 self-loathing.

Sorry, try again next time

At least you heart types get to be naturally sexy. 4w3s can't open a can of Pabst Blue Ribbon without looking graceful as hell. Every single body movement a 4w3/3w4 makes looks like human perfection

Image type:

Head Type:

 

[JocktheMotie]

okay first of all....wow

that's bananas....i never knew all that.

scondly...hth does that work being an sx dom? you just get more involved and lost in your intellectual pursuits?

As you might guess, an sx 5 is going to feel very conflicted because they’re going to desire a type of abstract merging from far away but while under the experience of the merge they will begin to dread it and feel out of control. This tends to be why they’re very hot/cold with their attention and desire and can selfishly try to dictate how interaction is handled on their own schedule of what they can withstand. It is a pendulum of: idealize the connection from a distance, leap to satisfy the ideal, quickly become drained, be afraid of becoming engulfed and confined, then pulling away. Also, the instinct quality always adopts an element of the main type, so in 5s the sx connection is typically one of free exchange of “intimate” information, secrets, confidentiality, information only between the two; as to 5s, information is power over the self, power over the world. Sx 5s can feel like their inner thoughts/worlds are somewhat frightening to others so their secret hope is to share their minds secretly with a singular, trusted individual who will not shun their eccentricity. Sx 5s do have a slightly more obsessive energy with regards to their pursuits, to address your last question.

 

[Lady_X]

That's very interesting. Thanks for explaining that all so well. The sx conflicts with the 7 a bit too so in a sense I can feel what that's like.

 

[Lexicon]

I like how you mention the acuteness of the suffering; it's an important notion. To me even the idea of an acute emotion conjures up feelings and fears of becoming engulfed in that emotion and the immediate defense is to use the evil machinery of my mind to strip that emotion of that kind of power. It's so powerful a reflex that I don't know if I can even answer the "acuteness" question honestly.

But I'll try. At the core, I think the "suffering" is felt (and occurs) at a slower, deeper level that resembles more the lengthy process of erosion rather than the some sort of acute impact. Over time, the difficulty/fear of crossing the "distance" between the 5 and the world can wear away both the desire to reach out and one's confidence in their ability to do so. The 5 starts feeling that they cannot really share themselves effectively with the world and so they retreat. And this distance slowly increases until the 5 can feel that life, the world, their desires, a relationship; these things aren't really available to them anymore. I think all 5s feel, at times, with varying frequency based on health, incapable of and/or confined by true connection with the world and with people. It is fundamentally an erosion of will and agency, a suppression of some pretty basic needs.

The 5's detachment certainly makes them feel safe and they feel like it's the only way they can objectively analyze and prepare for experience and emotion. But saying it makes them superior? I think they can view "engulfed" beings with disdain because they watch these people experience these turbulent emotions and think that if they were properly prepared/detached/intelligent enough they would have avoided the emotion entirely, which as far as the 5 is concerned, is of utmost importance. So that's where that might come from.

I'm not sure if that answers the question, or is descriptive enough. But I can certainly expand.

I relate to essentially all of this (eerily so), except the part toward the end- I don't really feel "disdain for" or a sense of superiority over more emotionally reactive people. I do empathetically feel where they're coming from, and sure, ideally, it'd be wonderful if people could pause, and think more often before reacting.. but I accept this is no easy feat, and that perhaps I may be at a deficit at times for remaining stoic, as well. I'm also not a 100% robot, either, so who am I to judge? I can feel quite drained/frustrated by the reactivity, however, and I suppose some of that comes from being more analytic when it comes to intense emotions.