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The Hardest Type to be in The Enneagram

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
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Its like in the military. They often claimed, "to be a leader, you must first learn to follow."[

Yes it is.

And yes you must.

There are lessons one does not learn unless one has.

The reason for this is because, the followers are observed and granted leadership past that.

Could you expand on this?

That sentence is pretty piss poor.

When 8's are in charge, their minds are at full potential.

Yeah.

Whether they're good or shitty leaders.

When 8's are subordinate, their abilities are often suppressed and unseen unless they are given reign over their own territory.

Then they've got lessons to learn before they deserve leadership.

There's a reason why enneagram 8 integrates to enneagram 2.

The only time I've had an E6 boss impressed with me is as a gymnastics instructor, where I am never bothered.

Maybe there's a lesson to be learned there.
 

Zarathustra

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I won't deny your personality is badass.

:uwin:

The issue is that, 8's operate best when in charge. So to fully see their potential is to grant them temporary leadership and see how they perform. Otherwise you're judging them unfairly.

And (one of) the problem(s) is, there are only so many leadership positions that need to be filled.

And, just cuz some "hotshot" thinks he deserves one, doesn't mean he actually does.

The rest is essentially covered below, but realize this: patience is a virtue.

If an e8 doesn't have the patience to wait, he doesn't have the patience to lead.

If he/she has abilities that could be well-utilized in leadership, opportunities will be granted to them to prove as much.

I've had bosses give me busywork to test my leadership. Being able to make copies of documents is not an indication of leadership.

I have started at the bottom of institutions several times.

If you're making copies for too long, there's a problem with you.

Responsibility, integrity and fortitude of character are.

And one learns all those things while making copies.
 

Zarathustra

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Yeah for sure... He was an enfp also with crazy strong fi so he remained respectful of other people's values and Seemed to be very protective of them. He did like to debate to sort of test someone on their beliefs which was annoying but he said it was just because he was extremely interested in how someone draws the conclusions they do or whatever

Idk... He was definitely a " challenger" but he didn't seem domineering or egotistical. There was nothing abrasive about his personality from my view.

Not saying he wasn't an 8.

But the bolded, et al, makes him sound possibly like a 6.
 

Lady_X

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Not saying he wasn't an 8.

But the bolded, et al, makes him sound possibly like a 6.

Idk he was self typed and I don't know any other 8's haha

He was way over analytical... Shit maybe he was a 6!! Haha

Like way worse than me... Or maybe just about different stuff idk
 

Azure Flame

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And one learns all those things while making copies.

lmao...

I don't think your understanding of E8's is right. Most of the leaders I've met who were bitchy about not being in charge were E6's and scared that everything was going to go wrong without being under their own supervision. An E8 is only going to assert a position of power if he knows he can do it better than anyone else. One thing that makes an 8 what it is, is the strong ability to know what they can and cannot do, something E6's are largely unaware of.
 
S

Stansmith

Guest
Idk he was self typed and I don't know any other 8's haha

He was way over analytical... Shit maybe he was a 6!! Haha

Like way worse than me... Or maybe just about different stuff idk

Does he come off as consistently grounded and "alpha", or does he alternate between seeming harmless and going ape-sh-t?
 

Zarathustra

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Idk he was self typed and I don't know any other 8's haha

He was way over analytical... Shit maybe he was a 6!! Haha

Like way worse than me... Or maybe just about different stuff idk

He's a 6.

Remember, I thought I was an 8 (and so did many others).

He probably has an 8-fix, and is counterphobic.
 

Azure Flame

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Does he come off as consistently grounded and "alpha", or does he alternate between seeming harmless and going ape-sh-t?

What you're describing is not a difference between 6 or 8. Its a symptom of being in the reactive triad.
 

wolfy

awsm
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I read this whole thread while stretching my back out. Interesting stuff.

9w8 is easy.
 

Zarathustra

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Does he come off as consistently grounded and "alpha", or does he alternate between seeming harmless and going ape-sh-t?

Once again, this comes down to health level.

Honestly, man, you need to figure this out.

I don't know how many times it needs to be said.
 

Thalassa

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Does he come off as consistently grounded and "alpha", or does he alternate between seeming harmless and going ape-sh-t?

Wow that's perfect. Except I wouldn't say 8s are consistently grounded, they just don't doubt their own presence. I think some 8s come across as pompous and I don't consider that very "grounded." I know what you mean though.

Because I am totally the description of the 6.
 

Lady_X

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Does he come off as consistently grounded and "alpha", or does he alternate between seeming harmless and going ape-sh-t?

He came off as grounded and alpha male. Very masculine for an enfp haha

But definitely a lot of talks that seemed fear based.
 
S

Stansmith

Guest
What you're describing is not a difference between 6 or 8. Its a symptom of being in the reactive triad.

cp6s look vigilant and like they're trying to look tough, while 8s look naturally intimidating and confident/smug.


8

5142404_orig.jpg


"lol, you don't want to try me buddy."

6

eminem-face.jpg


"I'm not scared of you or anybody"
 

Zarathustra

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lmao...

I don't think your understanding of E8's is right.

I think I've got them pegged pretty solid.

And I don't see how that quote would prove your point.

I think the issue is that you don't understand/respect what is necessary to properly acquire leadership.

Most of the leaders I've met who were bitchy about not being in charge were E6's and scared that everything was going to go wrong without being under their own supervision.

I can't comment about the leaders you've met, but that certainly is a quality of e6s.

An E8 is only going to assert a position of power if he knows he can do it better than anyone else.

The problem is, that certainty is sourced from essentially nowhere but their gut, and I'm not sure if I've ever seen one not think he is better than anybody else for the job (whether true or not).

One thing that makes an 8 what it is, is the strong ability to know what they can and cannot do, something E6's are largely unaware of.

As you said in your statement about this several weeks ago, on the 6's side, that is generally them doubting themself when they really shouldn't be, not the other way around.

The opposite is more the problem for 8s.
 

Azure Flame

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I think I've got them pegged pretty solid.

And I don't see how that quote would prove your point.

I think the issue is that you don't understand what is necessary to properly acquire leadership.



I can't comment about the leaders you've met, but that certainly is a quality of e6s.



The problem is, that certainty is sourced from essentially nowhere but their gut, and I'm not sure if I've ever seen one not think he is better than anybody else for the job (whether true or not).



As you said in your statement about this several weeks ago, on the 8's side, that is generally them doubting themself when they really shouldn't be, not the other way around.

The opposite is more the problem for 8s.

So you're saying E8's actually suffer from "overconfidence" and that this overconfidence is false?

This ultimately just seems like a Te statement, where only things that are done and proven actually exist. Where confidence is only based on experience and not self assertion or absolute logic.

I will explain to you how my brain works. As a Ti user of subjective logic, I think on the fly. Every conclusion I reach is theoretical until proven objective or otherwise based on experience. So when I make decisions that are subjective, theoretical and unproven, I'm ultimately leaving it to chance, however I am calculating the chances rapid fire. From the outside, it looks like I have no idea what I'm doing and am making extremely brash decisions.

I'm a gambler, and my confidence is as strong as the odds in place so long as I have the information available. The concept is similar for E5's. "Knowledge is power."

If the odds are 50%, my confidence is 50%. If the odds are 99%, my confidence is 99%.
 

Thalassa

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cp6s look vigilant and like they're trying to look tough, while 8s look naturally intimidating and confident/smug.


8

5142404_orig.jpg


"lol, you don't want to try me buddy."

6

eminem-face.jpg


"I'm not scared of you or anybody"

Am I the only person who thinks Bruce Willis is a total dork?

I don't think being an 8 gives people the power that some imagine. I think in a healthy 8 it just gives them a very solid leadership quality, like they're unshakable...not that they are imposing, or superior or any of that kind of stuff.
 

Thalassa

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So you're saying E8's actually suffer from "overconfidence" and that this overconfidence is false?

This ultimately just seems like a Te statement, where only things that are done and proven actually exist. Where confidence is only based on experience and not self assertion or absolute logic.

I will explain to you how my brain works. As a Ti user of subjective logic, I think on the fly. Every conclusion I reach is theoretical until proven objective or otherwise based on experience. So when I make decisions that are subjective, theoretical and unproven, I'm ultimately leaving it to chance, however I am calculating the chances rapid fire. From the outside, it looks like I have no idea what I'm doing and am making extremely brash decisions.

I'm a gambler, and my confidence is as strong as the odds in place so long as I have the information available. The concept is similar for E5's. "Knowledge is power."

If the odds are 50%, my confidence is 50%. If the odds are 99%, my confidence is 99%.

Honestly you seem to have that kind of narcissistic overconfidence sometimes from what I've observed in your posts (that's nearly comical at times), so if you are indeed an 8w7 (you probably are) then [MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION] is absolutely correct.

Lowest base level 8w7 are like mob bosses and sociopaths and criminals who throw people in ditches.
 

Zarathustra

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So you're saying E8's actually suffer from "overconfidence" and that this overconfidence is false?

Yes.

This ultimately just seems like a Te statement, where only things that are done and proven actually exist. Where confidence is only based on experience and not self assertion or absolute logic.

You can call it whatever you want.

The proof is in the pudding, not in the pudding thinking it's so fucking awesome it should be leader.

I will explain to you how my brain works. As a Ti user of subjective logic, I think on the fly. Every conclusion I reach is theoretical until proven objective or otherwise based on experience. So when I make decisions that are subjective, theoretical and unproven, I'm ultimately leaving it to chance, however I am calculating the chances rapid fire. From the outside, it looks like I have no idea what I'm doing and am making extremely brash decisions.

I'm a gambler, and my confidence is as strong as the odds in place so long as I have the information available. The concept is similar for E5's. "Knowledge is power."

If the odds are 50%, my confidence is 50%. If the odds are 99%, my confidence is 99%.

Congratulations.
 
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