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  1. #81
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    As for your description, Starry, that's how I've always felt about e7s (and e3s, in a similar, albeit somewhat different way): under the positivity on the surface lies what likely either is or has a very good chance of turning into a train wreck, due to unwillingness to realistically/objectively assess what is going on in their lives. "Oh, yeah, snorting this line and having sex with this stranger who I'm pretending is my super close friend but who I really don't know jackshit about is EXACTLY what will make my life PERFECT right now *brushes under the rug the fact that if he/she had to spend the next hour alone in a room they would probably drive themselves up the fucking walls trying to not think about everything that's going wrong in their life that they're actually CONSTANTLY trying to not think about/avoid, and thus never actually effectively dealing with/resolving* *snnnnnnnnnort* *awwww* *where were we?*"
    Yeah... I have a 7w6 sx/so friend who once messaged me in a panic because she brought a 33-year-old man she'd randomly danced with at a bar back to her dorm room, smoked and drank extensively with him, and then he was making suggestive comments including one about raping her... and she's kind of on the crazy end of the spectrum in general, but that was a particularly e7 hedonism-fueled situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    I certainly get your point, but as an 18 year old in the prime of his life, I'd much rather have e7 problems than e6. I see the value in being an e6 troubleshooter when you're in your 30s or 40s, but being an e6 is a teenager or young adult is an absolute waste of youth. You should be happy go-lucky, whimsical, euphoric and impulsive at 18 years old, that's the point of youth. You have lots of fun, f-ck up a bunch of times, and move forward. As a young 6, you're basically behaving like an old woman and depriving yourself of any worthwhile experiences.
    I feel this. But, there's also still PLENTY of time. Most of my wild and crazy abandon happened in my sophomore and junior years of college. I regret some of it, and I'm very glad for some of it, as it goes with wild and crazy. And it does get better with time. I like being an e6 20-something. I like being stable and I like that I like my stability! I still have grand e7 plans to travel the world and all. It's not like you have to be boring just because you're an e6!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith
    3 is probably the best type to be anyway. They're realistic, pragmatic and win. Once they integrate to 6 they're considerate winners that know themselves. When we integrate to 9 we just become a bunch of weird hippies or polygamist nomads.
    You are really serious about being down on 6s!

    Again, e3s might look great from the outside, but they aren't satisfying themselves on the inside. When they integrate to 6, they often have to shift gears and move in a different direction because they have been living an external dream instead of their own. e3 NFs in particular may have a rough time because of the tension between 3 gloss and NF genuineness. It's like how many envy rich people but studies show that happiness doesn't change once you hit around 70,000 a year. Success only creates happiness to a certain extent.

    When 6s integrate to 9, they're still fundamentally practical, resourceful, security-oriented 6s. It's just imbued with the 9 sense of serenity, instead of volatile overreaction. A serene 6 would be more like a wise ruler than a bizarre hippie, I think. I feel like when I have my moments of growth it's like I know shit might be coming but I also trust that everything will turn out fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Listen, you are 18. Some of what you are feeling is just about being 18, not about being any enneagram type in particular. (At least to my 'old' ears.) Some of your peers who look like they've got it "easiest" on the surface of living, consider that perhaps they don't ... be careful how you make those comparative judgements, is all I'm saying. It can be a huge blind spot.

    I can think of pros and cons to each enneagram type, and that's how these things go.


    Quote Originally Posted by senza tema View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro
    Naranjo states that the types on the "bottom" of the enneagram (e.g. 4 and 5) suffer the most, and the ones on the "top" suffer the least.
    This is so irritating. No wonder 9s trick themselves into believing they have no problems since no one actually believes they matter.
    Maybe it would be more accurate to say that the types on the bottom are more acutely aware of their suffering? I don't really think anyone suffers more or less, or that it's even possible to measure or compare. But I do think it would be right to say that 4s with their difference, 5s with their isolation, and 6s with their anxiety tend to be very focused on their perceived problems. That does not necessarily mean we actually experience more suffering, but probably that we are more aware of the how, when, where, and why of it.

  2. #82
    ¤ Zarathustra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    Then you have 6 on the opposite end of the spectrum keeping you from stepping outside in the morning.
    Did you not see the part where I said stop bitching and sack up?

    Honestly, what you're talking about has nothing to do with being an enneagram 6.

    It has to do with being unhealthy mentally, psychologically, spiritually.

    You said it yourself: when you have a positive mentality, you are God.

    Well, seems to me like what you have to do is learn to cultivate a positive mentality.

    3 is probably the best type to be anyway. They're realistic, pragmatic and win. Once they integrate to 6 they're considerate winners that know themselves. When we integrate to 9 we just become a bunch of weird hippies or polygamist nomads. If an unhealthy 3 is a prime Michael Jordan (who was a douchebag), then it can't be that bad. Certain types of unhealthy are much more respected than others, IMO.
    I think you have way too big a boner for threes.

    From my perspective, threes were always douchebags who didn't know anything about themselves, or what they really wanted.

    They did everything for other people. And not in some altruistic sense, but in the sense that they had essentially no sense of self, and, as such, making others impressed by their external accomplishments was the only thing they really knew.

    But, just like your view of sixes is tainted, and nothing more than a narrow focus on *unhealthy* sixes, so is that view of threes.

    Our level of health is much more relevant/important to our lives than *which* enneagram type we are.

    e3 and e6 relationship summed up:
    I don't get why you think that's such a good summary - I don't think it is.

    And, ironically, irl, Jon Hamm is probably an e6.
    The Justice Fighter

    INTJ - 6w5 8dw 3w4 sx/so - Neutral Good

    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

    The Aggressive 6
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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    Then you have 6 on the opposite end of the spectrum keeping you from stepping outside in the morning.

    3 is probably the best type to be anyway. They're realistic, pragmatic and win.
    Once they integrate to 6 they're considerate winners that know themselves. When we integrate to 9 we just become a bunch of weird hippies or polygamist nomads. If an unhealthy 3 is a prime Michael Jordan (who was a douchebag), then it can't be that bad. Certain types of unhealthy are much more respected than others, IMO.]
    That's debatable.

    They can be quite efficient but not necessarily pragmatic and realistic. The positive outlook can easily trump it sometimes. The 3s I know can tend to exaggerate things in relation to reality and become a bit delusional. Once the 6 and 5 get control over the anxiety and paranoia, I think they tend to be the most "realistic" types. Unhealthy 3s can come off as highly self-centered, vain, and narcissistic. That's probably on par with the unhealthy 6's paranoia and neuroticism in terms of appeal (some might consider it worse).

    This thread has the "my type is so hard and the grass is greener on the other side" tinge to it.

    9's have the whole lethargy, "let's fall into false contentment and push everything under the freaking rug" thing going on. That shit is not easy to deal with. I can't see how that's "easy". At least, the 6's anxiety will push them to do thing when it gets bad enough.

  4. #84
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    This thread has the "my type is so hard and the grass is greener on the other side" tinge to it.
    Yes, I agree.

    I was thinking of this in relation to this thread:

    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Maybe it would be more accurate to say that the types on the bottom are more acutely aware of their suffering? I don't really think anyone suffers more or less, or that it's even possible to measure or compare. But I do think it would be right to say that 4s with their difference, 5s with their isolation, and 6s with their anxiety tend to be very focused on their perceived problems. That does not necessarily mean we actually experience more suffering, but probably that we are more aware of the how, when, where, and why of it.
    Yes, this is a MUCH better way of phrasing it.

  6. #86
    ¤ Zarathustra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by senza tema View Post
    Yes, this is a MUCH better way of phrasing it.
    Flabby relativism.

    Ask therapists who are familiar with the enneagram what types they're absolutely sick of seeing.

    You'd be surprised at the unanimity of the answers.

    ***

    That being said, I think there can actually be benefits to that greater level of suffering.

    I think if the struggle is that much greater to get to health, then the result is likely that much greater too.

    What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, and what you overcome determines who you become.
    The Justice Fighter

    INTJ - 6w5 8dw 3w4 sx/so - Neutral Good

    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

    The Aggressive 6
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  7. #87
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Flabby relativism.

    Ask therapists who are familiar with the enneagram what types they're absolutely sick of seeing.

    You'd be surprised at the unanimity of the answers.
    Flabby objectivism. One could argue that those types are healthier for realizing they'd benefit from therapy, even if the therapists are sick of them. Just because people aren't in therapy or have gotten out of therapy faster doesn't mean their mindsets are healthy.

    But yeah, given the choice, I'd rather be able to say I've fought and overcome than never had to try. And there are fringe benefits...

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Flabby relativism.

    Ask therapists who are familiar with the enneagram what types they're absolutely sick of seeing.

    You'd be surprised at the unanimity of the answers.

    ***
    No idea what you're on about here. I'm bad at guessing games, just tell me what you mean already.

  9. #89
    Stansmith
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post



    Again, e3s might look great from the outside, but they aren't satisfying themselves on the inside. When they integrate to 6, they often have to shift gears and move in a different direction because they have been living an external dream instead of their own. e3 NFs in particular may have a rough time because of the tension between 3 gloss and NF genuineness. It's like how many envy rich people but studies show that happiness doesn't change once you hit around 70,000 a year. Success only creates happiness to a certain extent.

    When 6s integrate to 9, they're still fundamentally practical, resourceful, security-oriented 6s. It's just imbued with the 9 sense of serenity, instead of volatile overreaction. A serene 6 would be more like a wise ruler than a bizarre hippie, I think. I feel like when I have my moments of growth it's like I know shit might be coming but I also trust that everything will turn out fine.

    When I feel like I've reached that point of serenity, my life feels very boring, and depressingly normal. Like my whole life is meant to be like a boring lifetime movie or an episode of King of the Hill. There's nothing to worry about, there's no grand narrative, you aren't special, you just are. Admittedly there's something very addictive about feeling alienated and having a chip on your shoulder.

  10. #90
    ¤ Zarathustra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Flabby objectivism.
    No such thing.

    There's overly rigid, or stick-up-the-ass, or dogmatic objectivism, but flabby objectivism just doesn't fit.

    That's like saying something was a wet dry.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    One could argue that those types are healthier for realizing they'd benefit from therapy, even if the therapists are sick of them.
    Yes, one cold argue many things.

    But that doesn't make them right.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Just because people aren't in therapy or have gotten out of therapy faster mean their mindsets are healthy.
    I think you left out a "doesn't".

    I'll take that as a sign of the quality of your argument.

    The fact that therapists say that they're sick of seeing so many 4s and 5s, that they rarely if ever get better, and that they're giant frickin pains in the ass, is just one, but one pretty significant, piece of evidence that 4s and 5s, in some sense, have it the hardest (and I think 6s kinda belong in there too). There are others. Some have been mentioned in this thread. Others have not. You don't necessarily have to believe it, but to not consider where that evidence points and consider it a realistic possibility, and instead just level the field and say all is the same, is a flabbily relativistic move, and comes from excessive preference for Fi over Te (which is not to say it couldn't be true, but, as a method, it is not following the evidence very keenly, and is rather flabbily and conveniently throwing around the relativism stick).

    @senza tema: see above

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    But yeah, given the choice, I'd rather be able to say I've fought and overcome than never had to try.
    Yeah, there's something about the overcoming that is valuable.

    Just being awesome and healthy would be pretty sweet, tho.

    But, in reality, as human beings, I don't know whether just always having been healthy, and always being healthy from then on, is that possible. I think it's actually part of Jung's idea of enantiodromia (which can be traced back to Heraclitus and countless other systems of thought) that, in such a circumstance, the presence of that excessive health will actually tend to lead to the formation of its opposite.
    The Justice Fighter

    INTJ - 6w5 8dw 3w4 sx/so - Neutral Good

    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

    The Aggressive 6
    Debator


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