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  1. #311
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    yeah...i mean...even as a seven i can see from the distance that there's beauty in the melancholy...the wistfulness...the pure agony of having such depth of emotion.

    beautiful broken people...raindrops and sad music

    so yeah... if that experience is like heroin then i guess you'd say the sixes experience is that of coming off heroin...nervous and twisty and needing a fix...someone or something to soothe their frazzled nerves.

    endlessly....
    exactly... please make it stop...
    Enneagram: 6w7 (phobic) > 2w1 > 9w1
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Holland Code: AIS
    Date of Birth: March 15, 1996
    Gender: Male
    Political Stance: Libertarian Liberal (Arizona School/Strong BHL)
    ATHEIST UNITARIAN UNIVERSALIST HUMANIST
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    SCIENCE ENTHUSIAST


    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

  2. #312
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    Lol. There's people "liking" you, and not being content with people just "liking" you. I get the sense people laugh at me instead of laughing with me, and that's a sh-t feeling. I don't wanna be a trusty sidekick or a cute golden retriever with his tongue hanging out. I'm honestly not very well-liked and never have been. This is more accurate:

    1- easy
    2- moderate
    3-easy
    4-hard
    5-moderate
    6-hard
    7-easy
    8-easy
    9-easy
    OMG, I totally relate. Also, if I get a compliment, I wonder if it is sincere or if it's just one of those surfacey things everyone is trained to do...
    Enneagram: 6w7 (phobic) > 2w1 > 9w1
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Holland Code: AIS
    Date of Birth: March 15, 1996
    Gender: Male
    Political Stance: Libertarian Liberal (Arizona School/Strong BHL)
    ATHEIST UNITARIAN UNIVERSALIST HUMANIST
    and
    SCIENCE ENTHUSIAST


    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

  3. #313
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    If 6s appear "normal" and accepted, 3s look outstanding and worshipped.

    While all the other types form cliques in highschool, the loner 3w4s just swoop in and steal everyone's girlfriends when they're not studying for exams or prepping for an NBC internship.
    @Stansmith
    @The Great One
    My mother is a core 3...
    She can be a bit of slavedriver at times.
    I have a weak 3w2 fix, so I can relate to some of it, but gosh...
    I think having a strong 9w1 fix makes me want to rest a lot and being core 6w7 makes me feel inadequate.
    Enneagram: 6w7 (phobic) > 2w1 > 9w1
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Holland Code: AIS
    Date of Birth: March 15, 1996
    Gender: Male
    Political Stance: Libertarian Liberal (Arizona School/Strong BHL)
    ATHEIST UNITARIAN UNIVERSALIST HUMANIST
    and
    SCIENCE ENTHUSIAST


    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

  4. #314
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    The first few pages of this made me wonder: How can a person find out if they've been mistyped as a 4, and in actuality are a 6?
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  5. #315
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    The first few pages of this made me wonder: How can a person find out if they've been mistyped as a 4, and in actuality are a 6?
    To me it seems like the major difference is the image/identity versus head/knowledge crises.

    I identified as 4w3 at one point, because there are many aspects of 4 that are like me - being reflective, sensitive, emotionally open, moody, self-conscious, relatively lower self-esteem, and artistic. I grew up with a medical condition that made me "special", and have a hard time feeling like just another person in the crowd because I have always been "different" in that major way. At the same time, I don't experience many feelings of conflict over my identity or my originality. I have a hard time understanding the 4 struggle with identity. I feel like I always am myself, regardless of whether that is similar to other people's selves or not. I feel like everyone is special in their own right and am content to be me and have others be them. I also do not really identify with the 4 struggle of feeling like something is making me feel separate from everyone else. There are ways I'm different from most, but I don't feel like there is a gulf between myself and others. I feel like there are gulfs between people everywhere and that's how it is for everyone.

    On the other hand, the 6 struggle is one of lacking confidence in your inner knowledge. It seems like 4s natively understand how to reach in and tap into that sense of sureness, but for a 6, it's clouded by all of the other information around us. I've read before that 4 is a true introvert while 6 is a true ambivert, and that very much comes into play in 6's insecurity. We attend to lots of information from the outside and have trouble trusting our inner voice, the one that exists completely independent of all of the other information from other influences swirling around in the environment. 6 reactivity is characterized by a feeling of crisis when unanticipated change occurs, and we tend to clamp down in response to ensure our security. Later on the realization may come that it was an overreaction and it would have been better to just ride it out instead of snapping so quickly to respond.

    Does that help some?

  6. #316
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Evidence that 5s are not in the least detached, really... They merely aspire to be. In fact, they are highly sensitive (and reactive) to the emotions and energy of others.
    A genuinely detached person would not find another person's emotional outburst in any way perturbing.

    I think @Seymour said something about 5s being territorial and having well-defended boundaries... If anything, they are territorial because they are acutely aware of how porous those boundaries are.
    they are overreactive not because they are detached from others but because they are detached from themselves. those porous boundaries are the absence of information about oneself, a lack of grounding in one's own body, a lack of trusting themselves to take the stick out of their asses and fucking breathe out once in a while and submit to uncertainty and the way beliefs come and go more freely, more naturally, when they allow themselves to fully experience them. they're not so afraid of being trapped in a duplicitous self. their commitment issues stem from a lack of committing to themselves, not others. self-respect requires one to appreciate one's own body rather than constantly feeling terrorized by a hostile environment that is not one's home. an inability to stay with what they feel recreates this perpetual cycle time and time again. and it prevents them from being able to determine what is true for them in a way that is calm, spacious, open, that has found a center that is wide enough that it doesn't find disagreement so threatening, that doesn't have the high-pitched tenor of someone who is afraid because they don't realize one doesn't lose oneself from other forces but from losing one's ability to trust oneself.

  7. #317
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    I think we 5s are unsuited for a lot of things. Routine jobs, retail, sports, acting, singing... you won't see many successful 5s in any of these fields.
    true. it's difficult to accept being contained by such a small-minded game. once you've gotten the percentages worked out, what's left to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Now that I'm sort of dating an ESFJ E2, I've made an extensive search about INTPxESFJ + E2xE5 relationships (I've noticed a significant Enneagram/mbti overlap for both). So I have in mind dozens of permutations of how things may (or not) work out.
    this is tough. the only thing i've figured out is that the broader i get into possibilities, into more futures, the less i know where i'm actually at in the moment because the less capable i am of creating clear observations of myself in the present moment. chasing the perfect story or the perfect concept does not replace the ability to wait and let it all pass, which simply comes about from finally noticing it in a way that allows you to let go of it. not always piling on more stuff, but waiting for ourselves to fully grieve what we lose, which is simply to wait for ourselves to fully notice what we actually feel and what is actually true for us and complete the emotional processing, so that we can trust ourselves to get through it and trust the moment to inspire us, to lead us back home to ourselves rather than the objects of knowledge and memory that we cling to for fear that we will lose ourselves if we do not leave a bread crumb trail. like the endless array of notepads and scribblings littering every room i spend any time in. #e5hoarders

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    5s usually have a nihilistic side that most people hate. "Hey, that's not an intrinsic value." "That's ultimately a social construction, you know."
    i love this. but at the same time, it is better, others like it more, if you have fun when you say it. if that makes the value of whatever it is dissipate, then the presumed insight is taking over you rather than allowing you to construct a relationship with whatever deeper truth you are trying to find and the deeper parts of yourself that are not realized yet through relationship. the underlying meaning of this statement, to me, points to the fact that the social binds us, that we are always but a part of something bigger than ourselves, that we must be, that the mind that we are a part of, that has emerged in part through us individually and collectively, offers itself to us not only so that it can know itself but so that we can know ourselves through our relationships with each other, that constitute the emerging it. there's so many ways in which you can illustrate this picture and be awed by it, by the interconnectedness of populations in process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    5s are likely the worst possible companionship for parties. unless they've had enough alcohol to make a fool of themselves and amuse other people by behaving like court jesters. Finally, we are probably the most frustrating romantic partners of the whole Enneagram theory. This post by Jennifer sums it quite well (though she was specifically talking about INTPs):
    i can relate, but i also don't really buy it. step 1 is finding enjoyment in more than your mind. the mind is great, and obsessing about the possibilities of the great mind we are all a part of, that is too big to know, trying to identify with the entirety of the atmosphere, the sky rather than the earth takes us away from our ability to enjoy being ourselves. the part of ourselves we can actually recognize. it takes us out of so many sites in which we, through our experience, self-valorize, as long as we are open to it. 5s need awareness training to bring them into their bodies, to walk barefoot, to notice their breathing and stay with the heavy, condensing relaxation response pooling up at the end of it.

    5s are often super witty, weirdly creative people. they have a soft quirky e7 underbelly that, once they trust themselves, they're more willing to show, booze or no booze. they are protective, and when they believe in themselves, they have a lot to give others. they can influence a course while still being patient, still listening to others, and, when taking responsibility to balance their own moods by practicing patience and allowing themselves to fully feel them, paradoxically freeing themselves in the process by truly NOTICING what is happening with them rather than embedding each emotional moment deeper and deeper into habitual thought patterns that have not termination point, no completion but mental and motivational exhaustion, they make the search for the truth behind all things wonderful, magical, and full of the mystery that returns reverence to a world that grows old and stale when it stops exploring itself and its own endless plethora of meanings. and they often make great teachers who show a willingness to embody the teaching process in all forms, allowing themselves to teach themselves, to be taught by others, to teach each other. it's a great beautiful thing when it's grounded in emotional well-being.

    i just think 5s need a lot of support because they don't initially have a very good sense how to give it to themselves, and due in part to their unusual path of development, starting at the end and moving back to the beginning, they can struggle finding the right teachers for them. when they do, they can make tremendous and profound changes rather quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    It's fine until I actually want or worse, need to come down out of the tower. And then it hits me that I built it a thousand miles away in the middle of nowhere. That feeling of safety and superiority collapses into a black hole then. What do I do? Go back inside? Start the long walk back to 'civilization' without knowing in advance what sort of reception I will get once I get there? I'm left torn between those two options.* I can never decide if there is more pain in the fact that I need someone to be there for me when everything goes black or more pain because there is no one there in those moments. Mostly because I haven't invested myself in having relationships with others so I can get support when I truly need it. Autonomy biting me in the ass at the worse moments.

    *Unless of course, I can lure someone out here to join me. I can cook very well, there's plenty of books to read, and nice places to explore.

    @Rasofy described it well. There is also the tremendous pain of realizing that one has spent so much time learning to live that very little actual living is done. Always preparing...never ready. It can be very hard to remember or have the courage to know that sometimes you just have to jump in there and dance.
    we're good at luring. i like the perfect e5 blue police box. yes, bigger on the inside.

    i also think there is an inherent tension in being a head type on the path to reveal something about the mind of the universe, to explore new possibilities and keep letting go of the transitory shells of thinking that protect and organize us all, and finding a balance with a conventional life and consistent goals and careers and relationships and family structures. 7s experience a similar tension. i just think it's okay. we all have tensions whose dynamics to some degree define us. i feel that with us, when integrating our quests with value for others, we create something very good, and that noticing the underlying motivations and urges of our quests for knowledge more clearly allows us to do a better job balancing raw excitation and a deeper, embodied sense of value, a way of centering ourselves amidst more than the ideas themselves but the relationships that those ideas serve in order to ignite us as selves, to bind us for the journey and drive us forward.

  8. #318
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    they are overreactive not because they are detached from others but because they are detached from themselves. those porous boundaries are the absence of information about oneself, a lack of grounding in one's own body, a lack of trusting themselves to take the stick out of their asses and fucking breathe out once in a while and submit to uncertainty and the way beliefs come and go more freely, more naturally, when they allow themselves to fully experience them. they're not so afraid of being trapped in a duplicitous self. their commitment issues stem from a lack of committing to themselves, not others. self-respect requires one to appreciate one's own body rather than constantly feeling terrorized by a hostile environment that is not one's home. an inability to stay with what they feel recreates this perpetual cycle time and time again. and it prevents them from being able to determine what is true for them in a way that is calm, spacious, open, that has found a center that is wide enough that it doesn't find disagreement so threatening, that doesn't have the high-pitched tenor of someone who is afraid because they don't realize one doesn't lose oneself from other forces but from losing one's ability to trust oneself.
    The aspiration to detach applies to self as much as other, yes indeed. And at unhealthy levels, contributes to psychic fragility.

    Other than that, I can identify with little of what you say here. Submitting to uncertainty, having self-respect, comfort with disagreement, openness to exploring one's personal truth, none of these things are an issue for this 5.
    Extract that rafter from your own butt, bro, and I think you might find it distinctly J-shaped..

  9. #319
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    exactly... please make it stop...
    I think this whole post you quoted might be complete bs. I may have just been talking. I don't know what it feels like to be a 4 or a 6.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  10. #320
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    The aspiration to detach applies to self as much as other, yes indeed. And at unhealthy levels, contributes to psychic fragility.

    Other than that, I can identify with little of what you say here. Submitting to uncertainty, having self-respect, comfort with disagreement, openness to exploring one's personal truth, none of these things are an issue for this 5.
    Extract that rafter from your own butt, bro, and I think you might find it distinctly J-shaped..
    i think you conflate issues rooted in underdeveloped feeling/emotional intelligence with J stereotypes. maybe they are indivisible, to you, because J = Fe for you, and you don't like it. but i don't see that as a necessary relationship or an accurate categorization.

    the representation of e5s as emotionally underdeveloped is not meant to be a particular attack on you but is meant to be an interpretation of the e5 category in generality, in all its frustrating moments. it's my reading of e5s, who systematically struggle with these issues, who are terrified of overwhelm and lose their center so easily. centering is something only which emotions provide, mediating between sensation and ideas, body and mind. centering can not result from a fixation on p or j perceptions, on outside or inside, whether they be endless narratives of what is possible or endless mirrors to reflect oneself back to oneself. choosing one instead of the other is like choosing to only accept either time or space. and furthermore, centering does not just happen in the mind between abstract j and abstract p but between their dynamic territorialization of the body and the body's upsurge through the organization emerged already.

    emotions, grounded in monitoring social relationships blending and binding us together, embedding and embodying the constructs of each other into our own worlds, help us assess the strength of relationship from our center rather than an objectively measured one that substitutes selective mathematical truths over those that we can fully experience for ourselves, that we can only fully experience when we leap into who we are as well as what is arising for us. in my estimation, then, it's more about choosing qualitative methods to balance out quantitative ones, whether that be Fe/Ti or Fi/Te. without them, you can never know yourself, because your self is only bound through relationships with others that emerge as priorities for you to offer self-care through a process of giving and receiving care with and for others. that build attachment, attraction, a kind of bond, a cycle that offers to help stabilize other cycles.

    for Fe e5s, staying with their own experience does not mean fixating on specific stories but means softening their focus not just to take in the whole in highest resolution but to feel out and balance the pertinent weights of the relationship, checking in with themselves by sympathizing with the experience on the outside to draw them into the body of the experience as a broad site rather than strictly a specific, instrumental one. not expanding their minds into the whole of the space of the world but taking in the whole of themselves and using that as a site to relate to the world, having a sense of home, finding a balance in the leverage of Ti, of one's own direct experience, with the ability to open to themselves, to fold themselves, by feeling out what it is like to be a thing like themselves in particular moments, exploring their own intensional structure, to feel out the biggest pieces of who they are and provide a sense of intention to their own awareness that is beyond the difficulties of determinism but instead allows their own internal structure, their own internal hierarchy of values to allow them to let go of the at times pedantic e5 retentive grasping qualities that present themselves when their various relationships with the world are constantly in flux and perceived as threatening amidst the moments of catastrophe that demand deeper revision and register as a discomfiting sensation of unpreparedness.

    in my understanding of the metric of e5 development, the more clinging to an idea of self, seen as what the world is rather than realized as what one feels, even when it harms oneself and others, the more unwillingness to submit to uncertainty (for one can have uncertainty of the world or uncertainty of oneself, and both sides need to be open to be dynamic and adaptive; and truly so, not just according to the image or the narrative provided and fixated upon as a way of self-justification, which i have observed quite frequently with dug-in e5s in the "NO" phase, including myself). the w4 adds another layer, which has to do with feeling afraid that one will abandon oneself because they will not be able to accept themselves as they are if they truly see themselves and truly see their effects on other people, instead relying on the art of disconnecting and flying into a rage when that disconnection loses its solidity and one must show what one truly feels to others and to oneself.

    long story short: 5s misperceive their feelings as threats.

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