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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    When I feel like I've reached that point of serenity, my life feels very boring, and depressingly normal. Like my whole life is meant to be like a boring lifetime movie. There's something very addictive about feeling alienated and having a chip on your shoulder.
    This has nothing to do with integration or health. This is more a matter of not being physically, mentally or emotionally active.

    Find some fun things to do.

  2. #92
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Flabby relativism.

    Ask therapists who are familiar with the enneagram what types they're absolutely sick of seeing.

    You'd be surprised at the unanimity of the answers.

    ***
    I am sure it was 4s and 5s with 6s not far behind.

    Therapists try to normalize the crap out of things but 4s identify with feeling different/alienated so....

    5s intellectualize most things and are mostly private so the lack of action and trying to get information out of them would frustrate the therapist.

    6s tend to be anxious and skeptical about most things esp. with authority so building a safe, trusting rapport (if at all) would take awhile.

    All of these types would endlessly question the therapist in his/her ability, knowledge, and competence until a good rapport was established (and even then, they would still keep the therapist on alert).

  3. #93
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    My therapist was frustrated by my refusal to engage with my issues. I kinda just sat in my chair, looked at my feet, and said things like "No, IDK" and "meh" for the first three months, haha. So I can see how 9s can be annoying in therapy.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    I am sure it was 4s and 5s with 6s not far behind.

    Therapists try to normalize the crap out of things but 4s identify with feeling different/alienated so....

    5s intellectualize most things and are mostly private so the lack of action and trying to get information out of them would frustrate the therapist.

    6s tend to be anxious and skeptical about most things esp. with authority so building a safe, trusting rapport (if at all) would take awhile.

    All of these types would endlessly question the therapist in his/her ability, knowledge, and competence until a good rapport is established (and even then, they would still keep the therapist on alert).
    Agreed.

    Very good analysis.

    And nice avatar, btw.
    The Justice Fighter

    INTJ - 6w5 8dw 3w4 sx/so - Neutral Good

    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

    The Aggressive 6
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  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by senza tema View Post
    My therapist was frustrated by my refusal to engage with my issues. I kinda just sat in my chair, looked at my feet, and said things like "No, IDK" and "meh" for the first three months, haha. So I can see how 9s can be annoying in therapy.
    Oy.

    That would be annoying.

    I would want to slap you.
    The Justice Fighter

    INTJ - 6w5 8dw 3w4 sx/so - Neutral Good

    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

    The Aggressive 6
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  6. #96
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    @Zarathustra

    OK, there was a bit of a misunderstanding there. Yeah, I agree that in general, 4s might tend to magnify suffering as facets of their identity while 9s tend to minimize it because that's just what we do with unpleasant things. I was referring more to the fact that I don't feel my problems are worth anyone's consideration precisely because most people tend to emphasize that theirs are more pressing.

    That kind of overall message (oh you guys suffer less) just reinforces 9s' tendencies not to engage with their issues, and that's kinda crappy. And then, other people start complaining about it when they've run out of personal issues to complain about.

  7. #97
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    Fine, you can have your point. Stick-up-the-ass it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra
    4s and 5s, in some sense, have it the hardest (and I think 6s kinda belong in there too). There are others. Some have been mentioned in this thread. Others have not. You don't necessarily have to believe it, but to not consider where that evidence points and consider it a realistic possibility, and instead just level the field and say all is the same, is a flabbily relativistic move, and comes from excessive preference for Fi over Te (which is not to say it couldn't be true, but, as a method, it is not following the evidence very keenly, and is rather flabbily and conveniently throwing around the relativism stick).
    Well, okay, in some sense I understand what you're saying. It's like saying that the quality of a slave's life and a billionaire's life must be the same because of relativism, whereas most people would agree that it is objectively true that being a billionaire is preferable.

    At the same time, I think (and I think you think, too) OP's problem here is really not one of having been born into a particularly unfortunate enneatype. I think it is mostly a problem of attitude and perspective, and my argument stands even if you quoted it before I got a chance to edit in my "doesn't" that the majority of 4, 5, and 6's problems occur due to being particularly focused on the "negatives" in life. 4, 5, and 6 all share a particular awareness of their deficiencies. And in this case, OP is identifying his type as making him insecure, which is probably true, but also for a handful of other qualities that don't necessarily have much to do with enneatype.

    I do think that certain types would tend to struggle more, but those would also include sx/sp, so/sp, 8w7s, 6w5s, and 1s. Regardless, overall, I think that a person's attitude and perspective can play a bigger role in determining happiness than type, just as attitude and perspective can trump environmental conditions.

    I don't think any type is a prison sentence for misery, or boringness, or any other attribute.

    But, in reality, as human beings, I don't know whether just always having been healthy, and always being healthy from then on, is that possible. I think it's actually part of Jung's idea of enantiodromia (which can be traced back to Heraclitus and countless other systems of thought) that, in such a circumstance, the presence of that excessive health will actually tend to lead to the formation of its opposite.
    Neat, I hadn't heard that term before. It makes a lot of sense. I would tend to agree that you can't just always be healthy... though it makes me wonder about people who tend to use all the enneagram strategies fairly equally. Given that you have 9 enneagram directions on a "horizontal" plane, and then 2 health directions on a vertical plane (healthy and unhealthy), it would stand to reason that there are certain strategies for gaining health applicable to all enneatypes - in other words that one can work on their health regardless of their enneatype, and there is plasticity beyond type.

    The rigidity of the "I am _ so I must be _" is what concerns me... perhaps magical NeFi thinking, but I like to believe it can be overthrown.


    Aside - why people I know would be a pain in the ass in therapy:

    ISTP 9w8 - Would not take it seriously. Would grunt one-word answers, or give blunt, obscene answers.
    ESFJ 2w1 - Would try to help with the therapist's problems.
    INTP 6w5 - Would be angry about being in therapy. Would make up things to get it over with quickly.
    ENFJ 3w4 - Would carefully construct mini-scenarios to appear that she is genuinely doing therapy but would hide the real issues.
    ESFP 7w6 - Would come to sessions, talk through problems, then leave and make the exact same mistakes over and over.
    ISFJ 9w1 - Would try to have one decently good session to fulfill his duty then never come back.
    INFP 4w5 - Let's face it... pity party.
    ENFP 9w1 - Would dance around talking about herself the whole time.
    ENFP 6w7 (self) - Would psychoanalyze therapist during sessions.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by senza tema View Post
    @Zarathustra

    OK, there was a bit of a misunderstanding there. Yeah, I agree that in general, 4s might tend to magnify suffering as facets of their identity while 9s tend to minimize it because that's just what we do with unpleasant things. I was referring more to the fact that I don't feel my problems are worth anyone's consideration precisely because most people tend to emphasize that theirs are more pressing.

    That kind of overall message (oh you guys suffer less) just reinforces 9s' tendencies not to engage with their issues, and that's kinda crappy. And then, other people start complaining about it when they've run out of personal issues to complain about.
    And I'm not saying 9s don't have problems, and don't sweep them under the rug.

    I just think that 4s, 5s, and 6s, by their constitution, tend to have more problematic mental health issues than other types.

    A completely unrelated piece of evidence to what I said before that basically points to the same thing: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/ar...p#.Uf1Ql9Ip-So
    The Justice Fighter

    INTJ - 6w5 8dw 3w4 sx/so - Neutral Good

    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

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  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by senza tema View Post
    My therapist was frustrated by my refusal to engage with my issues. I kinda just sat in my chair, looked at my feet, and said things like "No, IDK" and "meh" for the first three months, haha. So I can see how 9s can be annoying in therapy.
    haha, even though I am 3w4, I engage the 5w6 side of my tritype a lot. I would often give my therapist long, vague rationales on how things were connected and why I did things. He would give me advice but I would often shoot it down because I already thought extensively of most of the advice. Or I would just "emotionally disengage". Eventually, he said, "You know why you have problems and how to solve them.... it's a just a matter of when". I probably drove him nuts so I can't imagine what a core 4, 5, 6 is typically like in therapy. lol

  10. #100
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    While I don't agree that removing the anxiety is the best course of action, I think that in this instance integrating to nine is what would allow us to finally focus, not remove, the anxiety; I would even postulate that it would seem poorly reasoned to assume that integrating to nine would erase worry. Nines themselves deny it, but as the six is hardly capable of repressing it, the correct integration is to focus on a singular issue, to determine whether the problem is actually intrinsic or extrinsic, and then gain the determination and skill to uproot the origin. The integration to nine isn't a shield or sword, sixes have plenty of those, it is the dart that hits precisely the point necessary to incapacitate the argument of the antagonizations.

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