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  1. #11
    Riva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    the opposite. 3s know how to keep up their image and are careful to hide their arrogance; 7s are more openly egotistical and care far less about coming across as such.

    compare
    @Elfboy: openly egotistical, blunt, says stupid things that reflect poorly on image but oblivious to them, controversial

    @Sparrow: she is eloquent, tactful and virtually never comes across as arrogant or egotistical. the presentation of her posts is much more poised and leaves a positive aftertaste.
    Sparrow is a 3w4 I believe. 3w4s and 3w2s are extremely differnet from what I have noticed. Yes the 3w4s know how to hide their arrogance (probably due to them being so comparatively quite or intorverted). However a few minutes with a 3w2 and you'd get the feeling that he/she is beating his chest. The arrogance of a E7 is more of a cocky/cocksure nature and not that of a egoistical nature. However their bluntness would sometimes be overbearing towards some other types.

    I wouldn't exactly use you as a prime example of an E7. (Not that I think you are not.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    Social 7w6: yes
    other 7s: no, they won't really care. there is a pervasive myth going around that 7s are usually people oriented and try to relate to everyone. it isn't true
    For E7s their character isn't defined by the things they have done, unlike in that of E3s. It is that what I had in mind when I said they try to relate to others. (I should have said they don't have an issue trying to relate to others than they try to.) A E3 wouldn't want to relate to others in that sense would they? (Especially if they feel they are conversing with someone who is lesser than them.) And since E7s character isn't defined by their social status they wouldn't want to separate themselves (comparatively so to that of an E3 who is trying to distinguish his/herself especially from someone who is of lesser social standards) from others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    tI haven't noticed this tendency in 7s. it sounds more like 3 or 6 (possibly 5 as well)

    it's actually most 7s. the fixation of 7 is all about narcissism and entitlement.
    I was replying to your post about E7s earlier. Narcissistic entitlement feeling is probably of those who are extremely unhealthy. One-uping is moderate I believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    tPS: do you think you are a 7?
    Probably.

  2. #12
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    Sparrow is a 3w4 I believe. 3w4s and 3w2s are extremely differnet from what I have noticed. Yes the 3w4s know how to hide their arrogance (probably due to them being so comparatively quite or intorverted). However a few minutes with a 3w2 and you'd get the feeling that he/she is beating his chest. The arrogance of a E7 is more of a cocky/cocksure nature and not that of a egoistical nature. However their bluntness would sometimes be overbearing towards some other types. I wouldn't exactly use you as a prime example of an E7. (Not that I think you are not.)
    - 3w2s brag in a more covert, charming way.
    - 7s are VERY egotistical

    For E7s their character isn't defined by the things they have done, unlike in that of E3s. It is that what I had in mind when I said they try to relate to others. (I should have said they don't have an issue trying to relate to others than they try to.) A E3 wouldn't want to relate to others in that sense would they? (Especially if they feel they are conversing with someone who is lesser than them.)
    3w4s typically don't want to relate to others, but 3w2s do. they want to be seen as the guy at the top of the social latter....but still on the same social latter as everyone else

    And since E7s character isn't defined by their social status they wouldn't want to separate themselves (comparatively so to that of an E3 who is trying to distinguish his/herself especially from someone who is of lesser social standards) from others.
    you make it sound like relating to others is the default. it isn't. many 7s like to be deliberately controversial and stir shit up for their own amusement.

    I was replying to your post about E7s earlier. Narcissistic entitlement feeling is probably of those who are extremely unhealthy. One-uping is moderate I believe.
    once again, it is at the core of 7's personality. it's just more subtle and harder to notice in moderately healthy 7s (average range 7 is like the girl who's nice, upbeat, playful etc but then turns into a bitch when she doesn't get her way)
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...lly-about.html

    Probably.
    not a chance. too much superego
    you're not selfish enough to be a 7

    oh, missed this bit
    I wouldn't exactly use you as a prime example of an E7. (Not that I think you are not.)
    I'm a splendid example of an unhealthy 7
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  3. #13
    Riva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    - 3w2s brag in a more covert, charming way.
    - 7s are VERY egotistical
    On the other hand I would say that E7s are cocky in a charming manner, whereas E3s are egoistical.
    For a person who 'notices' things it would be clear as to where the charm of an E3 is coming from.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    3w4s typically don't want to relate to others, but 3w2s do. they want to be seen as the guy at the top of the social latter....but still on the same social latter as everyone else
    Agree. It's the E4 E2 difference.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    you make it sound like relating to others is the default. it isn't. many 7s like to be deliberately controversial and stir shit up for their own amusement.
    No I didn't.

    I said -

    For E7s their character isn't defined by the things they have done, unlike in that of E3s. It is that what I had in mind when I said they try to relate to others. (I should have said they don't have an issue trying to relate to others than they try to.) A E3 wouldn't want to relate to others in that sense would they? (Especially if they feel they are conversing with someone who is lesser than them.)
    and

    And since E7s character isn't defined by their social status they wouldn't want to separate themselves (comparatively so to that of an E3 who is trying to distinguish his/herself especially from someone who is of lesser social standards) from others.
    I thought I was being clear. E7s don't have an issue relating to others, whereas E3s would. Even 3w2 wouldn't want to entirely relate to others. Maybe their values they would but they always try to emit an image that they are better. It is clear once one gets to notice it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    once again, it is at the core of 7's personality. it's just more subtle and harder to notice in moderately healthy 7s (average range 7 is like the girl who's nice, upbeat, playful etc but then turns into a bitch when she doesn't get her way)
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...lly-about.html
    I'm describing average and you are describing unhealthy. I see E7s as types simply want to get what they want. This is why their instinctual variant is very clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    not a chance. too much superego
    you're not selfish enough to be a 7
    I didn't get the theoretical part of the superego.

    I'm extremely self centered but not selfish. I believe most E7s are self centered. Of course even that changes according to the health levels.

  4. #14
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    the opposite. 3s know how to keep up their image and are careful to hide their arrogance; 7s are more openly egotistical and care far less about coming across as such.

    compare
    @Elfboy: openly egotistical, blunt, says stupid things that reflect poorly on image but oblivious to them, controversial

    @Sparrow: she is eloquent, tactful and virtually never comes across as arrogant or egotistical. the presentation of her posts is much more poised and leaves a positive aftertaste.


    Social 7w6: yes
    other 7s: no, they won't really care. there is a pervasive myth going around that 7s are usually people oriented and try to relate to everyone. it isn't true


    I haven't noticed this tendency in 7s. it sounds more like 3 or 6 (possibly 5 as well)


    it's actually most 7s. the fixation of 7 is all about narcissism and entitlement.

    PS: do you think you are a 7?
    I don't think I like you as the type 7 spokesperson anymore. I'm going to have to start looking for your replacement. I apologize for any grief this may cause you but it's just not working out.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
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  5. #15
    Riva
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    Quote Originally Posted by AntiheroComplex View Post
    I'm with you on this one. I get that I come across as a little overly charismatic, flirtatious, and playful around my friends and acquaintances sometimes, but I swear, that mostly comes from a desire to have a good time and keep the mood light. I think 7s can be selfish for sure, but not automatically narcissistic. Not at all.

    I've known a few narcissists in real life - two of them 3s, one of them a 6. The presentation between those were very different; the 6 was actually, in a twisted way, proud of having been diagnosed with a mild case of NPD and frequently used it as a means to justify her behavior. One of the 3s was calm, cool, and collected in most circumstances, but very into his image and liable to lose that polished façade whenever he didn't have control of the social dynamic (he felt entitled to everyone's attention and adoration pretty much all the time). The other 3 was probably one of the unhealthiest people I've ever met, checking off every criterion for NPD and then some. He was smug, openly arrogant, a name-dropper, all about himself - his image, his status. People were not people to him; they were objects to be manipulated (and abused, whenever they failed to satisfy him). When I think of this guy, I think of American Psycho.

    Consequently, when I think of narcissism, I'll probably consider type 3 before any other...whether that's fair or not.

    Of course, 7s can be narcissistic too - as can any type. (I completely agree that Tony Stark is a blazing 7w8.) However, I don't think the prevalence of true narcissism there is as high as Elfboy believes it is. Or, to me at least, some 7 characteristics might seem narcissistic but pack a different flavor than those that I've experienced as true NPD. I do think 7s can be a selfish type. They worry about whether they're feeling good and having fun and consequently tend to put themselves first. But constantly seeking pleasure and feeling entitled to it are not the same thing.

    My brand of selfishness just feels like an independent approach to life (versus concerning myself with the needs and approval of others). I love that I am who I want to be. I'm awesome because I'm doing something I really enjoy, not because of job title or status. That kind of thing.

    I also like DJ Arendee version.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    I don't think I like you as the type 7 spokesperson anymore. I'm going to have to start looking for your replacement. I apologize for any grief this may cause you but it's just not working out.
    Agreed.

  6. #16
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Mmmm, I don't care about making theorizations (i'm already burning my brains studying and i'm using this forum to distract me) so I'm just gonna speak for myself, use my example if it helps ya: I like people and i'm curious about the outside world, but i've always been told that i'm self-centered. i'm not selfish, but i dwell a lot on my feelings and how other people make me feel, and i like it if i'm center stage or the conversation is about me. like, if i'm in a group and i'm not actively participating, then i get bored and wander-off....or do something goofy to get the attention back. and this is kinda icky to admit and also kinda incoherent because at the same time i hate getting (unwanted) attention. i'm not sure if i'm getting out of topic, is this still connected to arrogance? let me think....

    ergh, speaking more strickly on arrogance....i liked those two pics shown above and identified with the 7w8 guy. i didn't like the second one, he's pretending not to be arrogant, which is worse. i guess i'm like the 1st. i'm proud of my achievements, i think i'm good and yes, better than many people at several things (and of course a shit at others). but i'm kinda smug if you're talking about something i know... but i guess it's something i try to not show, in the same way that i try to hide the fact that i like the attention, as i said above.

    does that help anyone?

  7. #17
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    On the other hand I would say that E7s are cocky in a charming manner, whereas E3s are egoistical.
    For a person who 'notices' things it would be clear as to where the charm of an E3 is coming from.
    again, the reverse. 3s are the kings/queens of charm; 7s wear their thoughts on their sleeves, and their thoughts are often egotistical

    all Id types are egotistical, but 7s are egotistical par excellence because they feel no need to back it up
    - 8s back up their ego with their strength
    - 3s back up their ego with their accomplishments. "it's not arrogant if it's true"
    - 7s do not believe their ego needs to be backed up at all. they think "I believe I can, therefore I am". while a 3 is going to be comparing themselves against external metrics, a 7 is likely to just waltz in and think "I can do this" only to fall on their face when they realize that real competence is required and not just a positive, confident frame of mind.

    Agree. It's the E4 E2 difference.
    cool


    No I didn't.
    I said -
    and
    I didn't say "you said", I said "you make it sound like". very well though, I misinterpreted.


    I thought I was being clear. E7s don't have an issue relating to others, whereas E3s would. Even 3w2 wouldn't want to entirely relate to others. Maybe their values they would but they always try to emit an image that they are better. It is clear once one gets to notice it.
    eh, I think both types can be either. unhealthy and lower-average 7s can have difficulty relating by virtue of believing they are better than others (they aren't trying to prove this, but they believe and people can tell and are put off. an extreme example is Viserys Targaryen from Game of Thrones)

    Sexual 7s can often have difficulty relating for other reasons. this subtype is prone to fantasizing and pursuit of extreme stimulation and out of the ordinary experience. therefore, Sexual 7s often have difficulty relating to things that are "normal" (in a manner similar to 4s, which they often mistype as) and are surprised when reality is nowhere near as glamorous as the grand fantasy they'd dreamed up for it in their minds. to use a personal example, I relate far more to most anime and movie characters than I do most real people. in a world of Elfboys, talking like a fictional character would be the norm because that's just how everyone would think.

    I'm describing average and you are describing unhealthy. I see E7s as types simply want to get what they want. This is why their instinctual variant is very clear.
    then your view of 7 is overly simplistic. underneath the "I want to get what I want and avoid pain" is a deeply frustrated individual who came into the world feeling as though they received a lack of nurturing. they therefore take it upon themselves to nurture themselves, treating themselves similar to how they would a spoiled child. nothing but the best will do and they feel entitled to the best life has to offer.

    again, this is where the desire of 7 differs from 3 and 8
    3s and 8s believe they need to earn and make exchanges for their desires (3s more than 8s, but 8s at least believe "I need to get stronger in order to take what is mine" and refrain from doing so until they believe they are strong enough). 7s do not. they want everything to be given to them, no strings attached.

    it is this quality that makes 7 the narcissist of the Enneagram par excellence

    I didn't get the theoretical part of the superego.
    superego:
    - self critical
    - "inner parent"
    - strict values and rules
    - "should" "supposed to" "ought to"
    - a sense of duty/obligation

    I'm extremely self centered but not selfish. I believe most E7s are self centered. Of course even that changes according to the health levels.
    it varies a bit, but even healthy 7s are still pretty self centered.
    I apologize though, I don't buy 7 for you, but it was rude of me to call you out on it.
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  8. #18
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Elfboy I just don't relate to that at all.

    I can't imagine anyone in my life describing me that way at all.

    I'm much more inclined to treat the people in my lil circle like spoiled children then I am myself.
    I almost never buy myself anything but will spend my last $30 on a nice lunch for someone else

    Not just anyone else but someone I love.

    I'm confident some/ maybe most of the time but not because I fully believe it. It's more like my super positive loving parent type voice that lives in my head. Which in a way I guess is me nurting myself because I've felt a lack of it?? Idk
    But I never place myself above others and cant stand to see others do it and can't stand to see others place them self below others either.

    If I ever appear over confident because I attempted something I wasn't qualified to do it just means that I told myself its okay to fail but trying would teach me something valuable.

    It's not coming from a place of I can do anything I want because I was born a badass!

    I know that kind of arrogance. My ex husband istj probably a type 1 was that way.

    I am not. Not even a lil bit. I have humility and would say if I have to try this I will but I'm not making any promises!
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
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  9. #19
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    Elfboy I just don't relate to that at all.

    I can't imagine anyone in my life describing me that way at all.

    I'm much more inclined to treat the people in my lil circle like spoiled children then I am myself.
    I almost never buy myself anything but will spend my last $30 on a nice lunch for someone else

    Not just anyone else but someone I love.

    I'm confident some/ maybe most of the time but not because I fully believe it. It's more like my super positive loving parent type voice that lives in my head. Which in a way I guess is me nurting myself because I've felt a lack of it?? Idk
    But I never place myself above others and cant stand to see others do it and can't stand to see others place them self below others either.

    If I ever appear over confident because I attempted something I wasn't qualified to do it just means that I told myself its okay to fail but trying would teach me something valuable.

    It's not coming from a place of I can do anything I want because I was born a badass!

    I know that kind of arrogance. My ex husband istj probably a type 1 was that way.

    I am not. Not even a lil bit. I have humility and would say if I have to try this I will but I'm not making any promises!
    Are you sure you're not a So/Sp 7w6? I thought that was what set me apart from the average 7w6…

  10. #20
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    Are you sure you're not a So/Sp 7w6? I thought that was what set me apart from the average 7w6…
    yes positive. i do that super merged self sacrificing sx thing in relationships.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

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